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posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
Are you serious?
Up until I joined ATS, I thought 9/11 truthers were idiots. I had never heard of WTC 7 before I came here and the videos alone show that something's not right.


Suffice to say that I've found the 9/11 forum laughable at best and the least Educational Forum on the Net. However, that's neither here nor there to the Secret Societies forum [/derail]




posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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Dble post
edit on 20-12-2010 by Fitzgibbon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:38 PM
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Are you serious?
Up until I joined ATS, I thought 9/11 truthers were idiots. I had never heard of WTC 7 before I came here and the videos alone show that something's not right.



OK there's something I agree with. I fought long and hard with the 'truthers' until I read about WTC 7. Something does not add up.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
This is appreciated. Though to me Rangel seems to have been acting of his own accord. I don't like it when people talk about his corruption they refer to him as "Freemason Charlie Rangel". That's like saying "Canadian Justin Bieber", as though an individual can't be terrible by themselves. I don't think an individual should be used to slam a group of people unless he/she represents them (like Pike) or there are ties to a larger conspiracy (like Jack the Ripper).
I'd argue that while Pike was a prolific Masonic author, he doesn't represent Masonry. Nobody does. What he wrote were his opinions, much like what the Masons who post on ATS post their opinions. The thing about Masonry is that the symbology is up to personal interpretation. Pike wasn't always right, either. As Masonic LIght likes to point out, Pike mistakenly believed that Masonry had proven direct ties to the ancient Knights Templar, when, in fact, no such proof has ever been established. So the whole "the low level masons aren't told the truth" quote that gets pulled out all the time was really Pike saying "hey, the Blue Lodge degrees don't even MENTION the Knights Templar, therefore, they haven't been told the truth!"



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


It is true Pike was a Confederate War Criminal (accused) but he was accused as such by the Confederacy and not the Union.

Pike had an uncanny knack throughout the war of not getting nearer anything with a sharp point than his tailor’s needles. While it might not be entirely fair to call him a coward he did his best to choose his battle’s wisely and as far as most historians are concerned he is still waiting that opportunity to join his first one!

Ranking Pike up there with Forest is a complete academic breakdown.

Further it would be helpful to actually know why the Civil War was fought as it was not fought for State’s rights and it was not fought for Slavery.

Prior to and after the Revolutionary War, when the Americas were largely virgin forest inhabited by the indigenous Americans three types of colonies were set up to exploit the Americas, these were a. Proprietary Colonies (like Pennsylvania) these colonies had a sole proprietor like William Penn, b. Charter Colonies (Like Virginia) these colonies had a corporate governance like the Virginia Company, and the Massachusetts Bay Company, and finally you had Crown Colonies (often the Crown would try to usurp Proprietary and Charter Colonies once they were up and running, often though the territory was originally founded as a Crown Colony).

As the original proprietors of the colonies arrived from Europe they would have their surveyors assess the land for minerals, mining and farming opportunities, waterways and other routes that the bounty of the land could be gotten to seaports and to market.

As each opportunity was identified trade associations set up to build the infrastructures so that the raw materials could be extracted, or grown and then shipped to markets would write back to Europe with detailed proposals on a case by case basis and state the specifics of each opportunity, how many people would be needed to work it, and how much money would be needed to develop it.

The people who were sent were considered “stock” investment, the loans made to develop these infrastructure improvements, mines and farms were considered “bond” investments.

So if it took 80,000 people to build the Erie Canal, 80,000 shares of stock were required, and if it took 2,000,000 pounds to buy the building materials and to pay for and house the stock, then 2,000,000 pounds in bonds were required.

European Royals, and Nobles and their Agents could send humans or cash as an investment to develop these things.

However needless to say they own these things since they provided the labor and the capital to create them, and they have to be paid.

Now perhaps the greatest crime the Masons and the Government are guilty of is not explaining these tedious little details to you, of why we owe foreign debt, who it’s owed to, what it’s owed for, and the fact that we can’t ever get out from underneath this debt, since well, they (the foreign investors) own these things.

However by the 1850’s a number of the Southern States wanted to get out from under the debt because they were in default on the debts! Several were way behind in their bond and stock payments, and the Agents of the European principles have always used one very powerful tool to make sure they get paid…

The real story about the management change you know as the Revolutionary War!
We become an unruly, angry, betrayed and otherwise ungovernable mass for the government the minute it is definitively proved that they have been lying to us for over 200 years and that the majority of our tax money goes to foreign investors and always has, because almost all of the United States is foreign owned, and we fight in overseas wars, because most of the people of the United States are still the property of the Royals and Nobles who sent them over here in the first place.

Our government in fact exists as one huge collection agency to make sure everyone gets paid.

You see, to offset the cost of the enterprises, the stock themselves were levied part of the wages they were paid, to make these highly profitable ventures for the investors.

When more and more of the Southern States defaulted on their debt they tried to break away and declare it null and void, and create their own nation free of the debt.

However in a world where you can’t steal a pack of chewing gum without getting sent to jail, you can’t go around stealing people’s railroads, and mines, and seaports and farms, so this left the Northern States in a very bad situation.

Either they would have to pay back the Southern State’s debts, making them economically insolvent in the process, or risk exposure by the Europeans if they did not force the South back into the Union and make them start paying back their debts.

The civil war was in fact one huge debt collection effort, and after the war, while the original 13th amendment was quietly discarded barring anyone of nobility or title (esquires) from public office, they rewrote it to free the blacks from physical bondage, but then wrote the fourteenth amendment to make everyone property of the corporate state, and to bequeath greater rights on corporate entities than human beings.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 





Also, when Uncle shows up with his wit and charm it can be very difficult to avoid posting a reply (or three) to him.


Once Uncle shows up it's officially a 'Proto' thread regardless of what the original topic was actually about.

In truth I was momentarily confused when I say the name of this thread "The Hijacked" forum because I assumed someone who doesn't know how to spell was complaining about me!

Don't tell me this thread isn't about me?




posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
As the original proprietors of the colonies arrived from Europe they would have their surveyors assess the land for minerals, mining and farming opportunities, waterways and other routes that the bounty of the land could be gotten to seaports and to market.

As each opportunity was identified trade associations set up to build the infrastructures so that the raw materials could be extracted, or grown and then shipped to markets would write back to Europe with detailed proposals on a case by case basis and state the specifics of each opportunity, how many people would be needed to work it, and how much money would be needed to develop it.

The people who were sent were considered “stock” investment, the loans made to develop these infrastructure improvements, mines and farms were considered “bond” investments.

So if it took 80,000 people to build the Erie Canal, 80,000 shares of stock were required, and if it took 2,000,000 pounds to buy the building materials and to pay for and house the stock, then 2,000,000 pounds in bonds were required.

European Royals, and Nobles and their Agents could send humans or cash as an investment to develop these things.

However needless to say they own these things since they provided the labor and the capital to create them, and they have to be paid.

Now perhaps the greatest crime the Masons and the Government are guilty of is not explaining these tedious little details to you...
Well, we put out Sid Meier's "Civilization" games to try to explain it. But it hasn't helped so far...



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 





PT, the Scottish Rite tried Takeout Taxil once, but the food was always italian and the only copy of the menu was supposed to be in the British Museum, but nobody could verify that.


Sadly when Guiseppe's on Third Street closed the menu did become a museum piece. Not every restaurant offers a Tommy Lasorda's Favorite, a Rod Steward Special and a Jerry Brown Pasta.

I believe the sole surviving copy of the menu was stollen in the 1998 "Great Heist" and is now in the Jerry Brown Museum otherwise known as the California Governor's House!




The Shriners had the Shrine & Dine program, but all the delivery men got pulled over on DUIs while driving their tiny cars...


This was my fault, for putting them in clown costumes and insisting that the police cars they saw on the streets would be made of rubber! Wow it made for some great Candid Camera episodes!




The Consistory Cab delivery company had a rough time... the people they delivered to either laughed at their silly hats, or called the cops because the drivers had swords...


I have a way around this now, since Bono was granted the right to carry a sword in the Commons as Ireland's favorite son, from now on we are going to have them all dress up like Bono!

Hey I don't just take the 1.00 delivery fee I earn it!




And the only thing the Blue Lodge drivers are going to have in the kitchen is the same pan of chicken tetrazzini that they've been reheating for the last year...


Not a problem, good old Monsanto and genetically modified food, pretty soon the only thing that will be grown is going to be chicken tetrazzini, the peasants will fondly remember the good old days when there was no bread and they got to eat cake!

Remember the first year or two is always the toughest getting a new business off the ground!

This can work I tell you!
edit on 20/12/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 





Well, we put out Sid Meier's "Civilization" games to try to explain it. But it hasn't helped so far...


The truth is, I don't think most people actually care. Not only do they prefer the fictions they have been sold over the centuries, but the truth is they spend 87% of their waking hours just trying to eek out sustinance and aren't really interested in anything beyond their day to day survival.

The point I am trying to make here, is that most of these things are in fact part of the public record, but very few people are of the mind to sit down and read the public records.

The truth isn't hidden at all, it just requires a real desire to know and a lot of time reading it and absorbing it.

Do I think the founders conspired within a very small group of people to hide our debt agreements? Yes I do.

Do I think that conspiracy included every Mason at the time? No, I don't.

I think the Masons that know 'secrets' are no different than non-Masons who know 'secrets' in that they are both simply good students, voracious readers, people with a strong sense of curiosity and an appreciation for logistical elements.

I just happen to think the 'grand experiment' in government was a 'grand experiment in free range slavery' to see how much more productive the people would be, and how much more eager they would be to fight for nation.

While certainly some of the people involved in that conspiracy were Masons, they weren't all Masons therefore it's not a Masonic conspiracy per say.

In addition all those people are now deceased, and while heirs can assume both liabilities and assetts in the way of debts and payments, the people who pulled the trigger on these events are long gone.

I don't see the Masons doing any better than anyone else in our distopian society so I am not of the mind that Masons are part of the problem, I am of the mind that they like everyone else though, can learn if they so choose, to be part of the solution.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater
This thread has proven the OP thesis.


Threads like this continue to serve as an example that proof lies in the eye of the beholder and that ignorance wins the day again.

Why would a person posting a thread trying to dirty the name of Freemasonry expect anything other than the masons of ATS to come into those threads and at least offer our own first hand accounts that clearly show masonry in an opposite light, that being one of charitable contributions to society and making good men better. Would it make more sense to you or the OP if no Masons showed up to defend the honor of our institution even though many of us have already accepted the fact that we will be ridiculed for our beliefs due to misunderstanding and in some cases ignorance of its purest form.

Furthermore, you all seem to think we conspire with each other to come and team up in threads like this. This is very much not the case, I can assure you. Of course whatever I say you may choose not to believe but that is the source of our dilemma isn't it.

Heff, nice post man. I would agreee with your sentiments that some people just like to argue for the sake of argument. Some of those people prefer to argue with Masons, as it may make them feel like they are accomplishing some goal in trying to expose us for the baby eating satanists we really are



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once Uncle shows up it's officially a 'Proto' thread regardless of what the original topic was actually about.


Most of the time that is a vast improvement over the initial offering.


Don't tell me this thread isn't about me?


It is now!



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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Okay, I'm gonna post this here, because, why not?

There's a new masonic lodge that was built in my town recently, and I went to check it out. Not much to see, to be honest. The lodge was closed, and no one was there. Later, I decided to check out the website for the local lodge. That led me to the state website:

www.ctfreemasons.net...

Now I'm not one to judge, and I certainly don't want to upset the masons on ATS, but you guys have to admit that there are some things that, from an outsider's perspective, are pretty creepy about the masons. I used to think that the all-seeing eye and pyramid were mainly Illuminati symbolism that got grouped in with the Freemasons by conspiracy theorists. Then I found downloadable issues of the Connecticut Freemasons Publication. October 2008 has a masonic all-seeing-eye tattoo right on the cover, and February 2008 has a bizarre-looking ceremony going on, involving women dressed in white. What's going on there?

Finally, there's CTCHIP:

www.ctchip.org...
www.ctfreemasons.net...



I hope I don't need to explain what's creepy about this one. Granted, the CTCHIP program is entirely voluntary from what I can tell, but if this were a program that parents were being forced to register their children with, people would have a fit.

I don't want to imply that Freemasons are secretly evil, or infiltrated by the Illuminati, or devil worshipers, or anything else, I'm just saying that you guys can come off as a little cult-ish and creepy sometimes.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 12:58 AM
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As usual, Robert Anton Wilson explained this problem best.

He pointed out that there is a sort of circular argument in certain conspiracy theories in which any evidence which is offered to disprove the conspiracy merely becomes evidence of how powerful and wide-spread the conspiracy has become.

Here, every time a Freemason tries to tell people a simple truth, he gets accused of having taken a vow to lie about everything. (I have taken numerous Masonic obligations and can tell you now that the very notion that one would promise to lie in such an obligation is entirely antithetical to Freemasonry. Freemasons value your ability to keep your word and to maintain confidences -- and your dedication to the Truth, which is one of the basic teachings of the Fraternity.)

Anyway, some number of you won't believe me because you believe that I promised to lie about having made a promise to lie. And so, there is no point in my talking with you because nothing I say can in anyway influence your thinking. Your mind is closed.

Please, in the future, know that my posts aren't intended for you (if you are such a person). I am posting for the benefit of individuals who still think.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 03:13 AM
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But it is not always just a simple truth, you refuse to accept the fact, that truth is subjective! And that there could be things going on in the secret societies that you aren't aware off.
You valse in and think you are the ultimate arbiters and keepers of "the real truth" and therefore insist that you have the last word in every debate about the structure of the secret societies.

Just look at this thread, 75% of the masons replying in this thread are replying to each other, on a topic that have nothing to do with the OP, this thread is officially hi-jacked by off topic ramblings made by masons.

The truth is obvious, and whilst nothing conclusive have been proven, for all we know you aren't even masons!
It is a fact that the majority of members calling themselves masons on these boards, take part in an organized effort to derail any thread critical of the secret society structure aswell as riduculing any person that comes forward with a theory on the secret societies.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 07:16 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 

I'm sure some things said against me and others is a T&C violation, but I don't really care about that.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 07:23 AM
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I have noticed this too. Either there is a well orchestrated 'association for masonic defense' , organised to swoop, as you say....or there is a bunch of many, smug small-fry masons who are in denial about the mountain of negative reports about aspects of the masons. They just deny it, which would, in fact, be impossible if they were sincerely following the oaths they quote in their defense. No-one with common sense and a real wish to better society would leave the too many to be ignored concerns about the dark sects within masonry.

I have tried to discuss this with some of them, but there is just denaial and accusations. The rhetoric of many of the masons on here exposes the fact that they only follow the oaths they have allegedly taken when it suits them...which makes them? The same as every other 'sect'.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 07:56 AM
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reply to post by wcitizen
 


I'm not in denial about my fraternity, and I speak for no one but myself. I just don't don't give a damn about this "mountain of negative reports" you and others claim to have that proves Freemasonry is some evil cult. IMO the people in denial are the one's who refuse to listen to reason. Either way I don't give a crap. Nothing that you say is going to change anything. Believe all the distorted stories being played out and sold out for profits from people like you who refuse to listen to reason. In the end it all comes down to who is able to live harmoniously with their surroundings. So in an effort to maintain that attitude towards mankind: You win. Please continue to believe whatever you wish about my Fraternity, it makes little difference.
edit on 21-12-2010 by W3RLIED2 because: corrections



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 08:10 AM
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Im all for hearing a good conspiracy theory.....but seriously, those who accuse the Masons of this or that have no evidence whatsoever. If they bring fourth evidence, it is usually debunked fairly quickly.....I will never ever disclose the "secrets" found in Masonry, but come on, anything can be found on the web these days, including Masonic rituals and so fourth.....Nothing is hidden anymore, there are no super Masonic secrets. Hell, if you are that curious you can walk into a Masonic temple, ask for a tour, meet some of the Masons......its all fairly accessible.



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 08:57 AM
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I heard about this on the William Cooper show.

The Freemasons first ask you to show proof. When you show proof they flat-out contradict you anyway without showing any proof for their own arguments. Sometimes they will also say, "Oh, well, you've never been inside a lodge and taken the oath." For some reason, having taken the oath means that the person is trustworthy, although the oath calls for one not to reveal secrets.

When that doesn't work, they will attack your character, saying that you're a nutcase, or that you're unfairly attacking innocent people (nevermind that they'll probably attack you first), or that you're a deluded religious zealot on a holy rollin' rampage.

William Cooper said that he's been physically attacked. I have reason to believe that my identity has been outed, but I haven't been physically attacked (although I don't make the outrageous claims that he's made either).



posted on Dec, 21 2010 @ 09:03 AM
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Is there something about the Freemasons that's bad?





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