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posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 03:42 AM
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And what specific one liner are you referring to?




posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 05:21 AM
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With some of these topics all we have is stories and very limited hard evidence. It is good that pictures, videos and external links can be included to build a convincing argument. The truthers for 9/11 are kicking ass here. One recommendation is to include a red 'X' along with the stars to gauge disapproval of comments as well. Similar to how the Yahoo Q & A forums. This way comments that are clearly against public opinion can be sent into the background of the core debate. Still accessible, but reduces the thread clutter.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 06:23 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


thank you for your insights. good to keep in mind. ill be looking for the same-with an open mind ofcourse. i have known alot of people in my life and have always known the masons to be a secretive group practicing all kinds of rituals as the members go up the heated latter. i have good friends whose familys are/were deeply invovled in the free/masons and my friends refused to follow family members and did not become members. i did however get the drift of what is/was up. that im sure has not changed. there will always be double talk with these guys!! thanks again.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 06:31 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


it sounds like your real problem is you don't feel like you are getting enough stars.


The only reason I brought up Taxil is that you quoted him. he admitted he lied. I am not sure what kind of brain you have, but you deserve to live in the world where Schnoebelen and Taxil provide your information. Remain bilssfull.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:40 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


Sadly your point is old hat here mate. Still you are 100% correct. The Masons on ATS can abide NO conspiratorial conversation regarding Free Masonry. To them the topic is deathly serious and every attempt made to discuss the 'what-if' is a slight to their fraternity. In the end it has completely debilitated what would have been my favorite forum on ATS. Some would say it is merely to inform the masses, that they are only the missionaries of masonry; other would have you believe they are simply defending their brotherhood; others would have you believe it a conspiracy. Me, I just find it rather boring.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by Animal
Sadly your point is old hat here mate. Still you are 100% correct. The Masons on ATS can abide NO conspiratorial conversation regarding Free Masonry.
Were we not the first to condemn Charlie Rangel, here in this very forum? Did we not participate in the Michael Brea thread while all the facts were still coming out? These are real issues, critical of real Masons, and we didn't shy away from them nor defend the actions of the men involved.

What we DON'T like is the endless repetition of century old hoaxes... We're tired of having to defend Pike quotes taken out of context.

Show us real CURRENT EVENTS involving actual Masons. That's what this forum needs. Not rehashing the same stuff with the same YouTube clips and no actual foundation for accusations.
edit on 2010.12.20 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



I guess you have it down to a science.



I call this science ‘Enslaved Masonry’!

It’s like the opposite of Free Masonry…you see because the Masons lack a central unified worldwide command structure what we are missing here is an opportunity to harness the power of Masonry under one umbrella that can truly put it to use for all of humankind…

Because Masons are in almost every city, town and dale the potential to put them to some greater use is huge!

I have thought a lot about it, and I know most Masons are incredibly smart and can see where I am going with this…

That’s right…

Takeout Taxi!

By employing the Masons as the world’s biggest, most powerful, delivers everywhere takeout taxi, quality restaurant food delivery service we together in the new ‘enslaved Masonry’ can accomplish a lot of things…

1. Really great culturally diverse food delivered everywhere piping hot!
2. An end to unemployment as the restaurant businesses take off they will need to hire more and more people locally (you can’t outsource restaurant jobs)
3. The end to Masonic bankruptcy lets face it membership and revenue from dues are way down, get that food there in a timely way and the tips will start rolling in.
4. Proto gets the 1.00 delivery charge for administrative fees (it costs a lot to administer a proto)
5. No start up costs, free Masons already have their own cars and uniforms, in enslave Masonry they just all become property of the administrator (me) for free!
6. New members, that’s right being a Mason will be cool again as young people answering the door will see you can afford things like cars and really cool hats and will want to join too!

Now I have it on good authority (my own twisted mind) that this is where Sir Francis Bacon would have taken Masonry ultimately had he lived long enough to see the first take out restaurants. I here tell that his final days were bitter and disillusioned ones, as he felt he had succeeded in firmly establishing masonry everywhere but knew instinctively it would take something beyond that silly brotherly love nonsense to keep them viable and held together forever.

I think once we transform free Masonry into enslaved Masonry and the Take Out Taxi venture takes hold that Sir Francis can rest easy, the Masons will know that their craft will endure, and most importantly Proto can get anything he wants to eat at any time from any restaurant without having to leave the cave!
edit on 20/12/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


What the hell?

Are you even aware of the history of this forum?

ATS leans TOWARD conspiracy theories. Over and over through the years the masons have been smacked down by the mods for 'ganging up' on naysayers.

How is replying to accusations derailing exactly?

Do you expect to come into the forum and dump pages of unsubstantiated claims without being rebutted by those of us who actually 'know' what goes on?

Freemasonry is a brotherhood. Just like the military or other fraternity. If you came on here and started accusing the USMC of killing babies you would certainly expect some of them to step up and defend their brothers.

I'd suggest you go through and read some of the inflammatory threads here and see how folks speak about us and accuse us.

If I'm coming off as pissed-off it's because I am. This is not a one-sided blast-the-masons website. If you want that go over to Ephesians5-11 or freemasonrywatch.

This is a forum. It's interactive and full of healthy debate.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


Furthermore, if you are going to use parsed quotes to support your position, I'd suggest you read something OTHER THAN Pike.

"The Meaning of Masonry" by Wilmshurst is a good place to start.




Masonry, then, is a system of religious philosophy in that it provides us with a doctrine of the universe and of our place in it. It indicates whence we are come and whither we may return.

It has two purposes. Its first purpose is to show that man has fallen away from a high and holy centre to the circumference or externalized condition in which we now live; to indicate that those who so desire may regain that centre by finding the centre in ourselves, for, since Deity is as a circle whose centre is everywhere, it follows that a divine centre, a "vital and immortal principle," exists within ourselves by developing which we may hope to regain our lost and primal stature.

The second purpose of the Craft doctrine is to declare the way by which that centre may be found within ourselves, and this teaching is embodied in the discipline and ordeals delineated in the three degrees. The Masonic doctrine of the Centre—or, in other words, the Christian axiom that "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you"—is nowhere better stated than by the poet Browning:

"Truth is within ourselves.
It takes no rise
From outward things,
whate’er you may believe.
There is an inmost centre in ourselves
Where truth abides in fullness; and to know
Rather consists in finding out a way
Whence the imprisoned splendour may escape
Than by effecting entrance for a light
Supposed to be without."


Since you are a professed Christian, as am I, you will see many themes related to Christianity in Masonic philosophy.

We are born, we live, we die.

But through the expression of brotherly love, relief and truth (or in Christianity the sacrifice of the Savior for mankind) we can be reunited with our Creator.

You will find throughout Masonry many references from the Bible (which lays open at the center of our lodge).

From "Duncan" (since you seem fond of quoting Monitors):




There are three great duties, which, as a Mason, you are strictly to observe and inculcate--to God, your neighbor, and yourself. To God, in never mentioning His name but with that reverential awe which is due from a creature to his Creator; to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and to esteem Him as your chief good. To your neighbor, in acting upon the square, and doing unto him as you would he should do unto you: and to yourself, in avoiding all irregularity and intemperance, which may impair your facilities or debase the dignity of your profession. A zealous attachment to these duties will insure public and private esteem.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 
Arrrgggghh you are deliberately going off topic. I'm on to you and your dastardly schemes



I did ask you a couple of questions on the first page, it would be nice to hear your response to them.

Also, when Uncle shows up with his wit and charm it can be very difficult to avoid posting a reply (or three) to him.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


PT, the Scottish Rite tried Takeout Taxil once, but the food was always italian and the only copy of the menu was supposed to be in the British Museum, but nobody could verify that.

The Shriners had the Shrine & Dine program, but all the delivery men got pulled over on DUIs while driving their tiny cars...

The Consistory Cab delivery company had a rough time... the people they delivered to either laughed at their silly hats, or called the cops because the drivers had swords...

And the only thing the Blue Lodge drivers are going to have in the kitchen is the same pan of chicken tetrazzini that they've been reheating for the last year...



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by KSigMason
The Masons post sources and facts in most threads. Most conspiracies are based on stereotypes, hoaxes, lies, and prejudices. Both sides debate back and forth, but now you complain over some perception that the other side is losing? Its remarkable how so many have double standards. Its funny how so many here say they are for freedom and so on, but from many of those same voices I've seen comments leading to the death of Freemasons via extermination/genocide. I've been called so many names that I stopped counting.



reply to post by Schrödinger
 

And thank you for your one liner that brought so much light to the discussion.

That's horrible! That sounds like a serious T&C violation.
Getting your hands on the truth of a Secret Society is very difficult and there is so many lies, fallacies, backbiting, and misinformation from both sides. I would venture to say that very few people actually know the truth. But to suggest extermination of Masons based on supposed evidences that one has not even witnessed is monstrous. If I were to discover that without a doubt Freemasonry made up a genocidal elite cabal or was a Satanic Babylonian Mystery religion, I would try to get as many people out of it as possible.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
reply to post by kallisti36
 


This isn't about how you guys eat babies, it's about how you guys work together to derail threads.


Wow! Big conspiracy. A small handful of Masons who happen to be spread across the world getting together to contradict and counter unsubstantiated (and usually already debunked) assertions. Big derail that!



Originally posted by kallisti36
This is a real conspiracy here. You guys are always on the scene ready to destroy a thread about the secrets of Masonry that you might not even be aware of.


I don't suppose it'd occurred to you that some of us work from home or work shift-work or might be on vacation or (perish the thought) might actually be unemployed?.

Nah! Couldn't be. Masons all control the world and work 9-5 M-F, right?

As for destroying threads about "secrets of Masonry that you might not even be aware of", do you really have an issue with denying ignorance by expecting some reasonable sourcing for assertions? Are you really that intimidated when a mason challenges assertions that bear the hallmarks of a sudden rectal withdrawal?


Originally posted by kallisti36
You star each others' posts, have your inside jokes, and take the thread so far off topic that it becomes useless.


Case in point about the aforementioned sudden rectal withdrawal.


Originally posted by kallisti36
If there are secrets about Masonry, I want to know them.


Then join if you're a man over the age of 21. If the 'secrets' are everything your fevered brow anticipates, feel free to blow worldwide Masonry sky-high with your revelations. But nobody's going to spoon-feed you. Life's too short for that


Originally posted by kallisti36
I'm pointing out that loyal members of a secret society are not good sources of information if the charges against their organization are severe.


Time and time and time again, Masons have been among the first (if not the first) to delve into assertions that could hold water. Why? Because it behoves nobody belonging to an organisation that prides itself on improving the morality of its members if we tolerate having one among our number who brings shame and/or disrepute to the rest of the membership. The vast majority of times, the assertions turn out to be baseless like the "Problem Lodge" thread. Turns out to have been made up from whole cloth.


Originally posted by kallisti36
Taxil... uggghh you guys always bring up Taxil, so does Wikipedia infact. Anything anti-mason comes up and so does Taxil. Taxil was a mason and I've seen good arguments that he was a straw man.


Source citations please?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by kwakakev
The truthers for 9/11 are kicking ass here.




Thanks for the best laugh I've had in a while. But I digress.


Originally posted by kwakakev
One recommendation is to include a red 'X' along with the stars to gauge disapproval of comments as well. Similar to how the Yahoo Q & A forums. This way comments that are clearly against public opinion can be sent into the background of the core debate. Still accessible, but reduces the thread clutter.


Easier to just compare the respective starring for posts on opposite sides of an argument. If there's really that much support against what Masons say, it'd show would it not?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by kallisti36
 


it sounds like your real problem is you don't feel like you are getting enough stars.


The only reason I brought up Taxil is that you quoted him. he admitted he lied. I am not sure what kind of brain you have, but you deserve to live in the world where Schnoebelen and Taxil provide your information. Remain bilssfull.
Where did I quote Taxil? The quote I took from Pike was from his writings. You don't even need the Taxil 'hoax' to show how bad Pike was. The man was a Confederate war criminal and there is quite a bit of evidence that he, along with Nathan Bedford Forrest (another war criminal), helped found the KKK. Forrest was a racist and an elitist, traits common to the KKK, but the structure and style of the KKK indicates occultism that Forrest was not involved in (as far as I know). The KKK burn crosses, wear pointed hoods very similar to ritual ceremonies in traditional Roman Catholic areas, and have odd titles like Grand Wizard and such. One of the founders had to have experience with the structure of secret societies in the founding of the KKK, the organization reaks of it. All beligerant racism aside, they operate very similarily with to the Masons, from dues to clandestine meetings, weird rituals, and grandiose titles.

www.freemasonrywatch.org...

Still all of that aside, Pike is, as another poster pointed out, only involved in the Scottish Rite. He is not the "Pope of Masonry".



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Animal
reply to post by kallisti36
 


Sadly your point is old hat here mate. Still you are 100% correct. The Masons on ATS can abide NO conspiratorial conversation regarding Free Masonry.


Oh bullfeces. Is it really that intimidating that Masons actually deny ignorance?


Originally posted by Animal
To them the topic is deathly serious and every attempt made to discuss the 'what-if' is a slight to their fraternity.


Because the vast majority of "what-if" discussions aren't presented as 'what-if': they're usually presented as bona fide fact. Is it really that hard to fathom why Masons might find repeatedly having to debunk previously-repeatedly-debunked assertions tiresome?

Would you honestly gainsay any group under the same circumstances?


Originally posted by Animal
In the end it has completely debilitated what would have been my favorite forum on ATS. Some would say it is merely to inform the masses, that they are only the missionaries of masonry; other would have you believe they are simply defending their brotherhood; others would have you believe it a conspiracy. Me, I just find it rather boring.


Sorry you feel that way. I don't gainsay chief_counsellor when he steps in to correct baseless assertions about KofC. It seems a reasonable response.

But hey! That's just me I guess



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Animal
Sadly your point is old hat here mate. Still you are 100% correct. The Masons on ATS can abide NO conspiratorial conversation regarding Free Masonry.
Were we not the first to condemn Charlie Rangel, here in this very forum? Did we not participate in the Michael Brea thread while all the facts were still coming out? These are real issues, critical of real Masons, and we didn't shy away from them nor defend the actions of the men involved.

What we DON'T like is the endless repetition of century old hoaxes... We're tired of having to defend Pike quotes taken out of context.

Show us real CURRENT EVENTS involving actual Masons. That's what this forum needs. Not rehashing the same stuff with the same YouTube clips and no actual foundation for accusations.
edit on 2010.12.20 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)
This is appreciated. Though to me Rangel seems to have been acting of his own accord. I don't like it when people talk about his corruption they refer to him as "Freemason Charlie Rangel". That's like saying "Canadian Justin Bieber", as though an individual can't be terrible by themselves. I don't think an individual should be used to slam a group of people unless he/she represents them (like Pike) or there are ties to a larger conspiracy (like Jack the Ripper).



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by kwakakev
The truthers for 9/11 are kicking ass here.




Thanks for the best laugh I've had in a while. But I digress.


Originally posted by kwakakev
One recommendation is to include a red 'X' along with the stars to gauge disapproval of comments as well. Similar to how the Yahoo Q & A forums. This way comments that are clearly against public opinion can be sent into the background of the core debate. Still accessible, but reduces the thread clutter.


Easier to just compare the respective starring for posts on opposite sides of an argument. If there's really that much support against what Masons say, it'd show would it not?

Are you serious?
Up until I joined ATS, I thought 9/11 truthers were idiots. I had never heard of WTC 7 before I came here and the videos alone show that something's not right.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:36 PM
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Here's the irony, and I'm sure many of my brothers can appreciate it...

I was on ATS long before I became a Freemason. In fact, I think it was probably this exact forum that sparked my interest.

I spent literally SEVERAL YEARS researching everything I could find about it. It became so intriguing to me that I actually joined a lodge! I think I was even skeptical a bit right up until the point I knocked on the door.

In a way, after all the degrees, I even felt a little let-down because I halfway expected some scroll or clay tablet would be handed to me with the secret to Life, The Universe and Everything.

Alas! No such luck.

What I did discover was a bunch of hints to what life is all about which all referenced back to one source. The Volume of the Sacred Law (in my case, the Bible).

I found a wide contrast in experiences too. From beautiful and tearful rituals, to happy fellowship to the agony of hours-long business meetings, haggling over this bylaw or that one, mandatory readings of communications from the Grand Lodge (which were usually four pages about a scholarship fund, or how the GMs pins were now a buck instead of free).

The best thing I found, though, was what happened OUTSIDE of lodge. My church life, faith, family life and other aspects of daily living became better (sometimes frustrating though because it woke up an obsessive fascination with all sorts of esoterica).

So, five or so years later, looking back, I think it was a great decision, but I would not try and influence another man to join or not join. That's the beauty of it... every man comes out of his own free will.

If someone asks I will tell them my experience, but I stop short of saying "You should join".

ANYHOO... back to work



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
Where did I quote Taxil? The quote I took from Pike was from his writings.
Except it WASN'T Pike. No such address was ever given by Pike. He wasn't even in France the day of that supposed address that you quoted. Taxil wrote it, and claimed it was something Pike had said. End of story.


The man was a Confederate war criminal and there is quite a bit of evidence that he, along with Nathan Bedford Forrest (another war criminal), helped found the KKK.
Nope, the only "evidence" is that his name shows up in one book. Source


All beligerant racism aside, they operate very similarily with to the Masons, from dues to clandestine meetings, weird rituals, and grandiose titles.
Catholicism has weird rituals and grandiose titles. So does Congress.





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