Christian Terrorism - Conveniently Forgotten

reply to post by bogomil


You're probably right. I may have been a bit too hasty claiming all are just looking for an excuse to fight. But I think that the blame in those cases lies with the religious organizations, not organized religion. In other words, for example, the Church, not Christianity. It's only a slight difference, but a difference nonetheless. A religion can preach the One Truth, yet if the people spreading the truth are corrupt, it won't change many lives for the better.

reply to post by David_Reale

I don't believe any religion is inherently evil. The only evil is people who will use it for their own, ulterior, and quite evil, motives. But that's just my opinion, and we all know opinions are like....well, you get the idea. I'm not saying I'm right in that assumption, but it's an assumption I'm willing to bet my life on.

However, as you say, there are some people who might not have killed themselves had they not been influenced to do so by religion. Then again, I still think they would have found another reason to kill. I don't think the problem lies with religion, but with them. They are looking for a reason, any reason, to kill. If it's not religious, then it's something else, I'm sure.

While I’m sure some are, many people who kill in the name of religion aren’t looking for a reason to kill, they are misguided, and brainwashed by their religion to do whatever it says to do.

Saying religion is inherently evil is probably a bit strong. I’d say this instead - organized religion is a set of preachings that an omnipotent god is in control and rewards/punishes people’s eternal souls if they do/don’t worship him properly, and the definition of properly is largely determined by humans in power (and wanting to keep or get more power). Thus, religion by its very nature is ripe for misinterpretation, manipulation, and perversion. And that is not good, in my opinion.

Re JohhnyBGood

You wrote:

"I was interested in Sifism at the time and was expecting to read a book full of wisdom etc - i was more than a little surprised to find a rambling incoherrent jumble of nonsense that read more like a charter for genocide than anything else.

It is quite apparent to me that you know nothing at all about Islam!"

You're doing EXACTLY as I talked about in my first post here. You are polarizing a situation, which without fanatics like you, would have been considerably less tense.

"Me good guy, 'them' bad guys"

And involving sufism as an exponent/active ingredience of 'jihad' is pure fantasy. If anything, sufism is the 'devotional' part of Islam, a kind of equalent to bhaktis in the east and Jesus-is-love types. If you want to derogate other extremists, at least find examples from reality.

Originally posted by David_Reale
reply to post by JohhnyBGood

 

And it's quite apparent to me that you like to make broad accusations in regard to things you have no knowledge of. Perhaps we shall just agree to disagree, then. "Charter for Genocide" is probably one of the least intelligent ways I've ever heard the Qu'ran be described.

I can make broad acusations, because I have taken the trouble to find out exactly what the koran says and what Muslims themselves believe - unlike idiots eho have accepted the whitwashed pablum version of Islam, fed to them by dissembling muslims spokesmen in the West and thier America hating leftist accomplices.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, most of the verses of violence in the Quran are open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history. www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Or perhaps you would like to hear from the top 'spiritual' authority of the muslim world

Sheikh Tantawi -the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar
These were the expressed "carefully researched" views on Jews held by the Muslim Pope -- the former head of the most prestigious center of Muslim learning in Sunni Islam for fourteen years, which represents some 90% of the world's Muslims.

... anyone who avoids meeting with the enemies in order to counter their dubious claims and stick fingers into their eyes, is a coward. My stance stems from Allah's book [the Koran], more than one-third of which deals with the Jews...[I] wrote a dissertation dealing with them [the Jews], all their false claims and their punishment by Allah. I still believe in everything written in that dissertation [i.e., Jews in the Koran and the Traditions, cited above].

reply to post by TedHodgson

Thank god somebodys thinking intellegently! Christianity in all honesty has caused more problems than any other religion

Better said, "People" have caused more problems than any other religion. Its human nature itself. When I watch the news, just locally in Chicago, and see all the rapes, murders, done in the name of jealousy, love, hatred, anger, money, etc...... all of those outnumber "religion"...

Religion itself, if you really Really study it, is actually pretty cool. ANd then Human nature comes along and completely "Crazifies" it.

Humans themselves are the sick twisted and help needing deviations......

Originally posted by bogomil
Re JohhnyBGood

You wrote:

"I was interested in Sifism at the time and was expecting to read a book full of wisdom etc - i was more than a little surprised to find a rambling incoherrent jumble of nonsense that read more like a charter for genocide than anything else.

It is quite apparent to me that you know nothing at all about Islam!"

You're doing EXACTLY as I talked about in my first post here. You are polarizing a situation, which without fanatics like you, would have been considerably less tense.

"Me good guy, 'them' bad guys"

And involving sufism as an exponent/active ingredience of 'jihad' is pure fantasy. If anything, sufism is the 'devotional' part of Islam, a kind of equalent to bhaktis in the east and Jesus-is-love types. If you want to derogate other extremists, at least find examples from reality.

Sorry! - how do you infer from this, that I am 'involving 'Sufism with Islamicism - it is quite clearly meant as a CONTRAST!

Re JohhnyBGood

You wrote:

"Sorry! - how do you infer from this, that I am 'involving 'Sufism with Islamicism - it is quite clearly meant as a CONTRAST!"

Glad to hear that. Though this wasn't obvious in your former post.

Re Dominicus

You wrote:

"Religion itself, if you really Really study it, is actually pretty cool. ANd then Human nature comes along and completely "Crazifies" it.

Humans themselves are the sick twisted and help needing deviations...... "

It's not that I completely disagree with you (I do take it, that you've read all the thread?), but you need to either sharpen up present ideas of what 'religion' is, or completely redefine it to fit with your thesis.

I've studied 'religion' for 50 years now, and I've found an amazing amount of intrinsic un-cool things in it.

Originally posted by bogomil
Re JohhnyBGood

You wrote:

"Sorry! - how do you infer from this, that I am 'involving 'Sufism with Islamicism - it is quite clearly meant as a CONTRAST!"

Glad to hear that. Though this wasn't obvious in your former post.

I wrote:

I first read the Koran 30 yrs ago - I was interested in Sufism at the time and was expecting to read a book full of wisdom etc - I was more than a little surprised to find a rambling incoherrent jumble of nonsense that read more like a charter for genocide than anything else.

It is perfectly obvious that this is intended as a contrast - when you make a mistake it is better to just admit it rather than try and bluff your way out of it!

reply to post by David_Reale


Agreed there is Christian terrorism but you appear to have "Conveniently Forgotten" The IRA, Real IRA & its myriad of sub-groups. If the Orange spin off groups are terrorists surely are the catholic side too!. Fair is Fair!

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by David_Reale

 

Agreed there is Christian terrorism but you appear to have "Conveniently Forgotten" The IRA, Real IRA & its myriad of sub-groups. If the Orange spin off groups are terrorists surely are the catholic side too!. Fair is Fair!

The motivation of the Irish terrorists is not religious - it is POLITICAL/NATIONALISTIC ie English rule vs Irish nationalism.

On a deeper level this conflict was orchestrated by the Jesuits - but then they are Lucifarians not Christians anyway, as is the Church of Rome in general.

The Koran explicitly advocates terrorism as a tactic to use against infidels.

Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek and love your enemy.

y'all know it already; the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and so on, and so forth.

These are all great examples of when men distort and twist a God written document so they can use it for their own agendas.
I would go even further and say that these were all demonic inspired events and that they have absolutely no ties to Christianity.

On a side note, I don't really consider the catholic church (who started both the inquisition and crusades) as part of Christianity...Christians follow Christ...while Catholics follow and practically worship the pope.
(Btw the Pope ordered the Crusades...not Jesus).

Re JohhnyBGood:

You wrote:

"On a deeper level this conflict was orchestrated by the Jesuits - but then they are Lucifarians not Christians anyway, as is the Church of Rome in general.

The Koran explicitly advocates terrorism as a tactic to use against infidels.

Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek and love your enemy."

I'm far from being an admirer of invasive catholicism or jihad, but this doesn't exactly diminish my antipathy against extremist protestants (if they are suggested to be the 'good guys' in this context).

It's just hypocracy to create such polarized distinctions, and especially as a theater for non-christians, who consider all the Abramic excesses as equally abominable.

You may be one of the 'love-your-enemies' for all I know. Most of the extremists I've met have just paid lip-service to that.

But still: There's a lot of decent muslims, protestants and catholics around, who are not involved in the soul-saving insanity to any troublesome extent.

I have read quite a few threads on ATS about people being Islamaphobic. Yet can't see why you think this is unfounded. You try to assuage this by also refering to other religeous terrorists. Lets look at the modern rash of islamaphobia. One can start with Al Qaida. This organisation was set up and run as an islamic entity. Not Arabic, Iraqi, Iranian or any other islamic nation. This by their definition set it on course to be a religeous war. Now you can take the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan(if you believe they are religeous in nature then I must vehemently disagree) no-one and no-where as ever alluded to or even intimated that these were fought and being fought on religeous grounds. This is the singular excuse used by certain sections of islam. They are making it a holy war. Not any-other nation or religion. We all know in Iraq there are different sects of musilims ie sunni and sheite but when the cry went up internationaly the muslims did not say they are killing Iraqis. No, no, no. They cried they are killing muslims. The same goes for Afghanistan now. There call for jihad is not for the Afghans but for muslims as a whole. It is they who are puting the religeous meaning into these conflicts. So now when they get the backlash of islamaphobia they cry foul. If truelly these wars were about christians v muslims then I seriously think the military people have made a big faux par by letting all those other muslims, who are not fighting, to live.

My favourite is Leopold II of Belgium. You think the hacking off limbs is a thing of Liberian civil war?
Well, look deep and behold

You can read more at Wikipedia.

As much as your use of Wikipedia annoys me, I thank you for giving me actual names to back up my arguments on religious blood-shed. Apparently the Freedomites originated in my province, I'm going to see if there are any groups in the area I can question...

Originally posted by bogomil
Re JohhnyBGood:



I'm far from being an admirer of invasive catholicism or jihad, but this doesn't exactly diminish my antipathy against extremist protestants (if they are suggested to be the 'good guys' in this context).
Text
It's just hypocracy to create such polarized distinctions, and especially as a theater for non-christians, who consider all the Abramic excesses as equally abominable.

You may be one of the 'love-your-enemies' for all I know. Most of the extremists I've met have just paid lip-service to that.

But still: There's a lot of decent muslims, protestants and catholics around, who are not involved in the soul-saving insanity to any troublesome extent.

This is not about individual adherrents of these faiths - it is about the doctrines themselves!

The Old testament Gods were nothing of the sort - more like demons. Judaism has reformed and humanised, Christianity is really all about the New testament and the supposed teachings of Jesus. Note niether of these go around killing people in the furtherance of thier religion anymore.

Islam is a completely different case! - it was set up so that it could not be reformed - the Koran is the supposed direct word of God - the final, complete and ultimate truth for all time.

As a Muslim you do not get to decide that you will be one - you are born one! and will accept it without question, without criticism and if you leave you will be killed - that is spiritual SLAVERY!

Islam is our enemy - not its human victims, just as Smallpox, Ebola or any other dangerous virus is.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


The IRA & their cowardly cronies are nationalistic but also express hatred for Protestants. They hide in various catholic church parishes in the word when on the run. They are deeply religious! Therefore I believe their are terrorists who use religion as well - Cheers!

Re JohhnyBGood

Quote: "This is not about individual adherrents of these faiths - it is about the doctrines themselves!"

Considering, that there are more extremist fanatics (passively enrolled in doctrinal ideology) than there are sociopaths (who choose which ideology to surf on), it's a reasonable assumption, that doctrines weight heavy. The simplest answer to this problem would be to strive for a-doctrinal upbringing. Then the individual can choose when old enough (and probably chooses to worship at a shopping mall).

Quote: "The Old testament Gods were nothing of the sort - more like demons. Judaism has reformed and humanised, Christianity is really all about the New testament and the supposed teachings of Jesus. Note niether of these go around killing people in the furtherance of thier religion anymore."

Even if protestants wanted to get rid of OT, they couldn't. Redemption-doctrine is based on the original-sin situation created by the schizoid (astral?) entity Jahveh, and without original sin NT is void.

As to killing sprees amongst christians, I'm so cynic about christianity, that I don't think it's lack of motivation holding extremist factions back. Rather lack of opportunity in seculat society. The elitist attitude is still very obvious amongst fringe christians.

Quote: "Islam is a completely different case! - it was set up so that it could not be reformed - the Koran is the supposed direct word of God - the final, complete and ultimate truth for all time."

As is wellknown, Islam has also schismed, though not so much as christianity. The bible is also the supposed direct word of 'god'.

Quote: "As a Muslim you do not get to decide that you will be one - you are born one! and will accept it without question, without criticism and if you leave you will be killed - that is spiritual SLAVERY!"

(In the case of some muslim countries): Agreed, but how does that justify christian extravagancies?


Quote: "Islam is our enemy - not its human victims, just as Smallpox, Ebola or any other dangerous virus is."

Your islamophobia is your business. Personally I object to all forms of fascist ideology (inclusive the christian varieties).

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by JohhnyBGood

 

The IRA & their cowardly cronies are nationalistic but also express hatred for Protestants. They hide in various catholic church parishes in the word when on the run. They are deeply religious! Therefore I believe their are terrorists who use religion as well - Cheers!

No - you are quite mistaken, this is a conflict about nationalism and as they see it the English occupiers of thier country.