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(0.31) It’s often demanded of us, that for a given state X, we must arrive at a belief
(1.08) …people form false and superficial beliefs all the time…
(1.56) Agnosticism isn’t about belief it concerns knowledge
(3.05) No procedure available to us could reliably establish the existence or non-existence of such an unscientific entity
(4.20) Pretending that those who lack your belief also have a faith based position demand much less intellectual discipline than facing up to the burden of proof you give yourself, when you insist others believe as you do
(5.05)…Rocks and dogs as Atheists…
(6.42) I reject theistic claims…I worked out as a child that if there were any Gods, none of them were bothered about using their supposedly awesome powers to provide direct dramatic evidence for their existence…
then we still haven't got past the stumbling block of a term that you'd call someone who ''knows'' that God exists.
Therefore, ''agnosticism'' is the best term to describe people who would personally define themselves as ''atheist'', as ''agnosticisim'' is the belief that the existence of God or gods in unknown or unkonowable, and the position takes the logical ground of not favouring one position or the other, rather than ''atheism'', that favours the non-existence of God.
Originally posted by eight bits
If you want to make the distinction, then knowing theist would seem to work.
Originally posted by eight bits
The stumbling block is that "Is there a God?" and "How confident are you of your answer?" are two questions, not one. And they have enough indpendence that the first can be asked without asking the second, and so there must be a way to answer the first and not answer the second when it is not asked.
Originally posted by eight bits
Speaking personally, I am rarely interested in how confident someone claims to be in their answer to a contingent question. If I am interested, then I will ask. They may also volunteer their confidence unbidden, which is fine, as long as they answer my question, the one I did ask.
Originally posted by eight bits
And since there is no operational way to distinguish between someone else's firm belief and someone else's knowledge, I will make do without that distinction.
In any case, any need for a term can be fulfilled by a noun phrase. Had agnostic never been coined, then people like me would have soldiered on with the core concept stated in as many words, neither theist nor atheist nor naive.
Originally posted by eight bits
One problem is that the term has already been in widespread use, for a long time, in the domain of religious thought. That is fatal to its incompatible use in the same domain. Closely related is that the term has always meant not atheist.
Originally posted by eight bits
Another problem is that agnosticism is a noncredal religion. We are not obliged to accept your dictates about our beliefs. As an agnostic, I am at liberty to "favor" god claims or godlessness claims, short of assenting to them, just as I may believe that the Boston Celtics are the most likely contender to win the 2011 NBA championship, without believing that the Celtics will win.
Originally posted by eight bits
In my view, the chief problem addressed in the OP is that atheists have sometimes adopted the term agnostic for false flag operations. And, although the poster cannot be expected to care as much about this as I do, some atheists adopt agnostic coloration to deny that authentic agnostics exist.
Originally posted by Joecroft
(0.31) It’s often demanded of us, that for a given state X, we must arrive at a belief
His above statement simply isn’t true, no one is forced to believe in anything they don’t want to, and more importantly, the idea that a person must belief X is ridiculous, because the position of Agnosticism is well known and available to anyone.
Originally posted by Joecroft
(1.08) …people form false and superficial beliefs all the time…
This may well be true but it’s painting a rather negative and condescending view of belief. People can equally believe in things that are true and beneficial as well.
Originally posted by Joecroft
(1.56) Agnosticism isn’t about belief it concerns knowledge
Again this common argument about Agnosticism being about knowledge and not belief. But the problem is, that the original definition of Agnosticism, was a complete answer in itself, to a question of, “do you believe in X?”
Originally posted by Joecroft
(3.05) No procedure available to us could reliably establish the existence or non-existence of such an unscientific entity
This is assuming that God is beyond the realms of science, which is an assumption and a belief in itself.
Originally posted by Joecroft
(5.05)…Rocks and dogs as Atheists…
This part of the video lasts for about a minute, and all the guy does, is try to paint all believers, as delusional idiots.
The problem here is that some people are trying to make a difference between theism/atheism and agnosticism, on account that one is defining belief/disbelief, while the other pertains to knowledge.
Clearly, the last reply is suitably vague and uninformative, and renders it the most useless and ambiguous reply to the original question.
Aye, but words and terms change over time.
''Agnosticism'' is, more often than not, understood to mean someone who sits on the fence on the issue ...
That's the beauty of agnosticism, though. Not only - from a traditional logic point of view - is it the most logical position to hold, ...