It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why do Europeans, Australians, and Canadians Need Freedom of Speech?

page: 3
3
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 19 2010 @ 09:05 AM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Maybe you should start doing some research. Only 5% of Australians have Guns.
So removing Guns all together is insignificant. It is simply not part of our culture. Nor do Australians feel they need guns.
Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and people will defend this right. The issues are different.

We have tougher gun laws though, that is the real difference.
So, can you point out how our freedom of speech has been reduced by the introduction of tougher gun laws in the 1990's and 2000's.
Also, freedom of speech has been ammended, as it is in the USA. This restricts things like Hate Speech, Child pornography etc.
So restriction on both guns and freedom of speech do not necessarily equate to an eradication.


People like you make me laugh though, EU. All this talk about TPTB and Guns etc. taking this and that.
You and the USA in general have sat on your asses and fiddled with your guns, spouting this and that about the PTB, whilst they have torn the constitution assunder and plunder the wealth of your nation leaving you all in a debt that you are now paying, that your congress which was inundated with request from the public to turn down totally ignored. You are paying for two wars, that are killing your own based on lies. The jobs are going, people's personal wealth evaporated, housing market in tatters, personal debt at record highs, education, health care too expensive. You need to get sexually molested in order to catch a plane.
Do you really think the PTB actually give a stuff about the fact you have guns. Look at what they have done to you! And you have done nothing.


But hey, you still got your guns to fight 'em with.

On the Other hand.
Australia regulated its guns and its banks.
When I go to the airport, I have to feel myself up.
Australia didn't go for the guns in the GFC but we borrowed money, and sank it into infrastructure programs rather than bail banks out. So people had jobs and money filtered through the system effected by a global recession, which is how it is supposed to work.
Most people were still able to pay mortgages, loans and credit cards etc. We don't have parks filled with homeless families living in tents.
They system ain't perfect and sure it could have been done better, but it help Australia come through the GFC well. No one was worried about Guns or saw freedom of speech restricted.
So most people are not afraid of the government or think they need guns to use against them and, we still speak easy and free.

So dude, as an Australian who also has a European Union passport and who has lived and travelled in both the USA and Europe, you can keep your guns.
And don't equate my Freedom of Speech with Your Guns.




edit on 19/12/10 by atlasastro because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 19 2010 @ 10:04 AM
link   
reply to post by lifeform11
 


Sorry I accidently sent my post to your post.

But you are right.



posted on Dec, 19 2010 @ 10:45 AM
link   
Guns have a detrimental effect on society as a whole. I personally can think of several instances where I would have not thought twice about murdering the object of my frustrations had I access to a firearm. Our lives are filled with enough stress already and to add firearms into that is akin to matches and gasoline.

on a side note, I've always thought that if we were allowed to carry swords, a weapon not easily concealed would be an exceptional deterent to physical abuse and crime in general.

Ever been hit by the flat of a sword? Very unpleasant and mostly a non-lethal pause for thought.

As for freedom of speach, It is the sign of an advanced society. I'm sure the philosophers and scientists that have died at the hands of the ignorant only in the name of the truth can attest to that.

Theocracy is an affront to intellect and an insult to civilization.
edit on 19-12-2010 by Kulkulkan because: incomplete thought



posted on Dec, 19 2010 @ 10:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by SKinLaB
...
Its posts like this that make me ashamed that someone like you spews stuff out like this that represent this Country. I do not see the necessity for this. You are not helping our case bro. You are basically confirming why they look at us like ignorant arrogant pricks. Thanks man....

You are on your own....


Did you even bother to read my entire thread?... It isn't that long... and yes there is a need to show people that those who are in power will not stop only at taking away our right to bear arms. Sooner or later they will ban the right to free speech, heck I even gave a link, which member prof.emeritus gave in another thread, that shows the chief of police in London is mulling over banning the right to peacefully protest in London...

I even wrote that I was being sarcastic, and didn't really mean what I wrote, but that in the same way that the left is making claims on the reasons why firearms should be banned, you can use the same reasons for banning freedom of speech, or the right to peacefully protest, and a whole miriad of other rights...

BTW, those people that see Americans "like ignorant, arrogant, pricks" are only looking in their mirror and describing themselves.


Oh i read everything. Your whole freedom of speech topic turned into the right to bare arms in other Countries. Thats not my biggest issue though. My biggest issue with this is your reaction to the individuals that disagree with you. If you want to debate then debate. Dont criticize and put people down because they dont agree with your points. Also bringing things up about a Countries past. It is your right to express your thoughts but you cannot "force" others to see it your way.. You brought a one leg man to a ass kicking contest. We have enough of our own skeletons to deal with. It only shows more evidence on how we worry about someone else's issues instead of our own at home..



posted on Dec, 19 2010 @ 01:13 PM
link   
least we forget, that in those countries, it is FORBIDDEN to 'dare' ask what really happened in world war 2. was it only 20,000 dead chozen? or was it more? how did they build aushiwitz after the war? how did they come up with the myth of the final zolultion? etc.

the fact i am not allowed to question something, means someeone is hiding something.

considering the chozen have been lying since the dawn of time, ww2 did NOT happen the way 'they' wrote the history books.



posted on Dec, 19 2010 @ 02:02 PM
link   
Why would anyone even own a handgun if not with the intent to kill? What are guns used for other than killing? Would you rather be in a fight with someone using a knife or a gun?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 04:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kulkulkan
Guns have a detrimental effect on society as a whole.


They do not... In times past, the 1900s when there were no restrictions on firearms there were LESS crimes, and people didn't have a need to "go around wanting to shoot people on sight."...

Even in today's world there are MILLIONS of people who legally own and bear firearms, and the number of people who use legal weapons to commit crimes is a very small number.

Most gun crimes are done with illegal firearms, weapons acquired throught the black market, which is something that gun-ban advocates can't seem to comprehend.


Originally posted by Kulkulkan
I personally can think of several instances where I would have not thought twice about murdering the object of my frustrations had I access to a firearm.


Just because you have difficulty in controlling your emotions doesn't mean everyone else is like you.

If you have feelings of wanting to hurt people over menial and every day occurrences, and you want to manifest your feelings of hurting others you my friend are in need of psychiatric help.

Even if guns were banned there are other ways in which criminals and murderers can kill others, heck you can use your car/truck to kill a lot of people, are you going to ban cars/trucks as well?...

We have had several occurrences of people using their cars/trucks to go on a killing rampage, heck as i have said before criminals/murderers could lock up a bar/club, theater, mall and set it on fire and it would kill more people than they could kill with guns. Are you going to ban every chemical/liquid that can be used to set buildings, and or people on fire as well?...

Unless gun-ban advocates want to ban EVERYTHING that can be used to kill others you people are nothing more than hypocrites.



Originally posted by Kulkulkan
Our lives are filled with enough stress already and to add firearms into that is akin to matches and gasoline.


And that same person who gives into "stress" and manifests his/her feelings of hurting others can't do it by using kerosine/gasoline and setting on fire others?... Heck such a person can get a gallon tank of gasoline, set it on fire and throw it at someone, or at their car... You don't think fire can severely injure/scar and even kill people?...

If you are in an angry dispute with some maniac, and that person has a pencil, you think that person driving that pencil into your eye or ear cannot kill you?...

There are knives, axes, and other objects that if thrown can kill or severely injure someone, are you going to demand for the banning of EVERYTHING that can be used to hurt or kill people?... If you are not, and you only want to ban firearms you sir are a hypocrite.


Originally posted by Kulkulkan
on a side note, I've always thought that if we were allowed to carry swords, a weapon not easily concealed would be an exceptional deterent to physical abuse and crime in general.


... Are you freaking kidding me?... BTW, I studied Ninjutsu in Spain, and among other weapons I am trained in the use of the sword, but I don't want to carry my katana around. I have no dellusions of wanting to be Connor MacLeod, the immortal, or some "MMORPG living fantasy"...


Originally posted by Kulkulkan
Ever been hit by the flat of a sword? Very unpleasant and mostly a non-lethal pause for thought.


.... You can as easily be hit in the head with a firearm as a club, and btw SWORDS WERE MADE TO KILL not to injure, or to display for others to think you are the incarnation of Connor MacLeod and to fear you because you can chop off their heads...


Originally posted by Kulkulkan
As for freedom of speach, It is the sign of an advanced society. I'm sure the philosophers and scientists that have died at the hands of the ignorant only in the name of the truth can attest to that.


I beg your pardon?... Carrying a sword at your side, or in your back is a sign of an advanced society?...

You my friend are one of the too many young people out there who play fantasy MMORPGS and you dellusionally think people would be more honorable if they were allowed to carry swords...

BTW i play smetimes MMORPGS, but I have no dellusions of walking around with my katana, and having hoonorable duels with people.

I'll give you a hint that i gave to another member who thinks like you in these forums... Honor is not found in a sword, but in the person carrying the sword...

A sword is a tool just like a firearm is a tool. There were PLENTY of murderers in medieval times, and ancient Japan/China who used swords to kill innocent and disarmed people...

BTW, you actually think that a crminal wielding a machete, or a knife is going to be more honorable in his muggings, or killings than one using a firearm?...



Originally posted by Kulkulkan
Theocracy is an affront to intellect and an insult to civilization.
edit on 19-12-2010 by Kulkulkan because: incomplete thought


What the heck does theocracy have to do with you and some other people wanting to ban firearms?...
edit on 20-12-2010 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 04:56 PM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Before you use stats, read them.

You can't compare rates directly, as each country includes things the other does not.

For example, of Canada's rate of 1,314/100,000 - uttering threats comprises 232 pts.

Uttering threats is not tabulated as a violent crime by US Census Bureau.

So lets remove that.

Score: Canada 1082 / US 467

Hmm.. Canada includes Assualt Level 1 (538) - US only uses aggravated assualt.

So lets remove that.

Score: Canada 544 / US 467

Oh hell I'll just add up the entries that the US uses in ther cenus data for Canada.

US Census uses (2007):
Murder - 6
Forcible Rape - 30
Robbery - 148
Aggravated Assault - 284

Total: 468/100,00

If you use Canada's stats (same entries)(2009):
Murder - 2
Forcible Rape - 70 (I went with the high number as Canada doesn't distinguish rape from sexual assualts.)
Robbery - 96
Aggravated Assault (I'll even add in Assault level 2 here) - 170
Total: 338/100,000

Electric, I don't care if American's want guns. But, don't use bs to sell your story.

US Census crime table - note the excluded items, ie: drug crimes, fraud, etc.)
Stats Canada crime table - note that there are NO EXCLUSIONS



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 05:00 PM
link   
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Very good point.

Oddly enough, it does seem to be mostly Europeans who are railing against our 2nd amendment. What irony, the continent that has been the largest killing field in history telling us North Americans that guns are dangerous.

Of course they're dangerous! We came over twice in the last century and kicked the crap out of various factions on the continent with our guns. Our only mistake was our failure to conquer Britain and bend them to our will.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 05:01 PM
link   
As a Canadian I don't need any laws to tell me what I can say. I know what's right. I know what's wrong. Needing a law to allow one to say damn near anything they want is not only counter productive, as the OP pointed out, it's ridiculous as well. I won't even get into the 2nd Amendment as I know my words would fall on deaf ears. See? I didn't need a law to tell me that.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 05:08 PM
link   
"Most gun crimes are done with illegal firearms, weapons acquired throught the black market, which is something that gun-ban advocates can't seem to comprehend."

Of course they comprehend it. The gun ban crowd do not care about crime rate. They want the guns gone so they can re-engineer America the same way they re-engineered China and Russia and countless other places. The poor bastards who are members of the public that support gun bans are just ignorant deluded morons with less sense than brains.

Look behind the poor, brainwashed fools at who is pulling the strings of the gun ban crowd and you will see that in all cases, without exception, you have a Commie turncoat. Our commie-in-chief and his killer witch-hag (remember Vince Foster?) know that gun control is dead in America, and despite an ugly witch troll lesbian and a Puerto Rican machetera being in the supreme court, the interpretation of the law has so far not eliminated the 2nd amendment. This is why they are doing an end-around and pushing for the UN small arms proliferation treaty, which will be a whole new boatload of #. The question is, will it pass, or will the freedom lovers in this country outnumber the "hunters" who are too busy watching football to pull their heads out of their asses for an instant and get wind of the pinko plans that are infesting the highest office in this nation?
edit on 20-12-2010 by HattoriHanzou because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 05:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by atlasastro

Maybe you should start doing some research. Only 5% of Australians have Guns.


Maybe you should start by actually reading my posts. I never mentioned Australia and if your people allowed your government to ban firearms it is YOUR problem...

Australia had a long history of gun use, and btw please do not try to show me skewed figures on firearms and crimes from "gun-ban advocates" by now it is obvious statistics from pro gun-ban advocates are nothing more than a lie.

We know very well that the UN, and in fact the world elites want to ban all citizens from having firearms, and many like you have fallen for their lies, and deceit.


Originally posted by atlasastro
Everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and people will defend this right. The issues are different.


For you they might be different but for us they both go hand in hand. There are already restrictions on firearms, like there are restrictions on freedom of speech.




Originally posted by atlasastro
We have tougher gun laws though, that is the real difference.
So, can you point out how our freedom of speech has been reduced by the introduction of tougher gun laws in the 1990's and 2000's.


You have been deprived the right to self defense.

The main question to ask about Australia is, has violent crimes decreased in Australia since the gun ban?...


Originally posted by atlasastro
Also, freedom of speech has been ammended, as it is in the USA. This restricts things like Hate Speech, Child pornography etc.



Originally posted by atlasastro

So restriction on both guns and freedom of speech do not necessarily equate to an eradication.


The Law of the Land in the U.S., which is the U.S. Constitution clearly states among other things, and i quote:


U.S. Constitution - Amendment 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

www.usconstitution.net...

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

Restrictions on firearms are an infringemenet upon our Second Amendment, and according to the forefathers of the U.S. the right to bear arms was linked to other rights. Fighting with words only does so much.

BTW, even Ghandi who was a pacifist wrote that guns are important, not to mention that India did not win it's independence solely because of Ghandi or other pacifists, in fact there were many groups in India which were fighting for freedom, and many of them used firearms to gain freedom. The British just decided to deal with pacifist Ghandi instead of having to deal with the armed freedom fighters.


Originally posted by atlasastro
People like you make me laugh though, EU. All this talk about TPTB and Guns etc. taking this and that.
You and the USA in general have sat on your asses and fiddled with your guns, spouting this and that about the PTB, whilst they have torn the constitution assunder and plunder the wealth of your nation leaving you all in a debt that you are now paying, that your congress which was inundated with request from the public to turn down totally ignored.


And the main reason why this has happened is because of the left, and the indoctrination which so many Americans have accepted. If the left didn't exist in the U.S. we wouldn't have the feds, which after all was signed into law by a PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT, alongside with the IRS... The rich banksters wouldn't have total control of our economy and Americans would still have in their hands the ability to succeed without government intervention...

So before you talk about the reasons why the U.S. has slowly become a more dictatorial state, it would do you good to read who, and why were the people making these changes.

Americans have been warned for decades that there was an active plan to "change the U.S. and Americans" and to make them accept a socialist, and ultimately a communist U.S.

Unless most Americans wake up and remember their heritage, and decide to defend the U.S. Constitution as the forefathers wrote it, then this nation will eventually become another socialist dictatorship, which is exactly what the rich elites have been working on, and what they have planned, alongside a One World Government, for EVERYONE.




Originally posted by atlasastro

But hey, you still got your guns to fight 'em with.


And what are you going to have to fight armed intruders, or even the rich elites when they decide to take away your other rights?... Your teeth?...



Originally posted by atlasastro
So dude, as an Australian who also has a European Union passport and who has lived and travelled in both the USA and Europe, you can keep your guns.
And don't equate my Freedom of Speech with Your Guns.


...Dude... even Gandi knew that firearms are essential for people to have freedom...



"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi (An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth, by M.K. Gandhi, p.238)

www.abhijeetsingh.com...

Ghandi had written this AFTER he became a pacifist in his autobiography, and even he, like the forefathers in the U.S. knew that firearms are essential for citizens to be free...


edit on 20-12-2010 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 06:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by SKinLaB
...
My biggest issue with this is your reaction to the individuals that disagree with you.


Oh, so NOW your biggest issue is my reaction to other members?.. I never hid the fact that I respond to people in the same manner they treat me, and all i did was to state my opinins and facts, I wasn't puting a gun to anyone's head and making them agree with me.


Originally posted by SKinLaB
If you want to debate then debate.


That's what I have been trying to do, and to show that the same excuses gun-ban advocates can use to ban firearms can be used to ban freedom of speech and other rights, the problem is that those who have responded obviously don't want to see that as easily as handguns have been banned in places like the UK, the same excuses can be used to ban other freedoms.



Originally posted by SKinLaB
Dont criticize and put people down because they dont agree with your points.


If people have the right to critize me i have the right to critize them as well no?... Or are you claiming only they can criticize?...



Originally posted by SKinLaB
Also bringing things up about a Countries past.


I wasn't the one who tried to use the past of the U.S. to try to use it against myself...



Originally posted by SKinLaB
It is your right to express your thoughts but you cannot "force" others to see it your way..


I fail to see when i was "forcing others to see it my way." I wasn't puting a gun on anyone's head and forcing them to do anything.. I am just an ardent defender of the U.S. Constitution, and every right enumerated within that document which is one of the many reasons that MADE this country great...

I wonder what you would try to claim about the forefathers of the U.S. if they were here writting about this subject...

BTW, I don't beleive myself to be a forefather of the U.S., but I am as ardent in my beliefs as they were.


Originally posted by SKinLaB
You brought a one leg man to a ass kicking contest. We have enough of our own skeletons to deal with. It only shows more evidence on how we worry about someone else's issues instead of our own at home..


Really? so showing that the same excuses used by gun-ban advocates can be used to ban other rights is a "one legged man argument to a kicking contest"?...

You still either choose to ignore the reason why I posted this, and I made it clear from the beginning, or you really need to learn to understand, and make your argument more concise.

BTW, pulling an analogy out of thin air doesn't make you right, more so when that analogy is like comparing apples with oranges meanwhile you claim they are the same.
edit on 20-12-2010 by ElectricUniverse because: errors.



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 09:39 AM
link   
Wow i was having a nice discussion where you called me "you people" so i thought i would venture out to see more of your writings to see whom i might be dealing with when i run into you on a debating scale and to see how your knowledge is about the outside world...
Hmmmm just as i thought...you dislike all things not American and It is folks like yourself that is going to keep giving Americans bad kudos....For one thing this was supposed to be about freedom of speech and ot freedom to bare arms from what i have read in this thread.
Well i am from Canada...i grew up with guns.....i have permits to have guns...i did my CORE program and i had weapons handling training in Canada.....there is a such a thing as responsible gun ownership in Canada.
But you start a thread based on Freedom of speech and then when people debate the topic with you you call them names and basically say their opinions don't count.
This is a global enviroment that we the people live in now...many americans have adopted these countries that you tend to slag as their homes....they have grown to love these same countries they are in...
The tip of the icberg i can see here now...is that you have not been anywhere to gain experience or knowledge of how people of other nations react or interact on a one to one basis.
Freedom of speech does lead to violence sometimes and the Elite try to quash the people from speaking out against them.
I don't know why you think that any one country is far superior than that of another...everywhere has it's good and bad points but through knowledge and understanding of each others cultures people can move forward in this world and make it better place in which everyone can live.
It is close minded narrow thinking people(yes such as yourself that make it a dark place to live.
now that was not an insult thrown at you as you seem to enjoy insulting others for their opinions...it is an acknowledgment that you might take onbaord to open your eyes and see that how to handle debates in the future might lead to a more fruitful outcome rather than being angry and argumentive with people.
Just a thought....I will not star and flag this thread as it is negative in all aspects of actually seeking a better understanding of the freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is and has never been done behind the barrel of a gun...To know an adversary is to understand their faults....so if you know what makes a person angry you can use that same anger against them.
I cannot understand your anger for all things not American....but that is going to be your downfall in reasonable debates.
edit on 093131p://f45Thursday by plube because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:01 AM
link   
Freedom of speech on the whole is good, it's just a matter of where does the freedom to say anything stop? Obviously it would be wrong to go around shouting that you hate blacks, whites or whatever colours, so we have laws in place that deter people for doing so. This can be a good thing, but it could also possibly lead to tension between communities, a sort of unspoken hatred.

Without the Hate Crime laws, freedom of speech would allow people like Nick Giffin (Leader of the BNP) the right to say whatever he liked



posted on Dec, 30 2010 @ 10:11 AM
link   
reply to post by SKinLaB
 


Take it from me that Americans are our cousins and we have nothing against the American people...except the loud mouthed cigar sucking ones we don't see much anymore
What we don't like are the deviant cowards running your country and destroying the very heart and soul of every decent American.



posted on Dec, 31 2010 @ 05:45 AM
link   
I'm European and have not a single problem with Second Amendment. Im in fact very aware is your SECOND so very deep (or high) in your map of rights. Defend it against those who presumably want to take it down not against our freedom of speech for gods sake



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 1  2   >>

log in

join