5 Myth about Islam

What has Islam got to do with Ayatollah Khomeini? How am I lying? So since the Pope covered up sexual abuse scandals (thereby implicitly condoning them), this means that molesting little children is okay for all of Christianity? Because that is the kind of logic you are propounding. I doubt you'll find even many Shi'ites who follow those teachings.

In fact, it is very interesting that this famous fourth volume of Tahrirolvasyleh, which supposedly has all these quotes, has never been referenced properly. These passages have not been found in it.

Khomeini is a muslim is he not,- taking the example of muhammed as normative.

Granted the hierarchy of the Catholic Church are a bunch of Lucifer worshipping pedofiles pretending to be christian.

That quotes apparently appeared in the fourth volume of Tahrirolvasyleh, first edition - when it was realised how damning it was it was repealed and subsequent editions edited - this is seems is a common practise amongst Iranian scholars.

And lest anyone think khomeini interest in sexual perversion was merely academic - here is a link to a video of a confession by a former close aide of him being a witness to khomeini rape of a screaming 4 yr old girl!

www.wikio.com...

Mod Edit: Quoting – Please Review This Link.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


Hahahahahahah....interesting that THERE IS NO FOURTH VOLUME of the book. I knew you'd fall for that.

Besides, I ask once again, what has what Khomeini had to say or do got to do with Islam?

I bring up the example of the Pope again:
The Pope is a Christian is he not,- taking the example of Christ as normative.

Are you suggesting that Christ advocated or condoned the molestation of little children? Because your suggestion is as absurd as that.

reply to post by babloyi


There are some source's which suggest it might have happened therefore it is a possibility.

The fact that there are fatwah's permitting the practice and that the Islamic paragon of virtue Ayatollah Khomeini sanctioned it suggests the practice, whilst maybe not being common place, is certainly not unheard of.

Your constant refusal to comment on the point I made about the myth's highlighted in the OP originatting and being maintained by elements within Islam is rather telling.

ETA.

The point is, but I could be mistaken, no Pope has ever tried to codify or publicly justify peodophilia unlike several Islamic clerics,
I don't dispute they have been complicit in or conspired to cover up similair acts though, seems there are evil and despicable people everywhere and that is probably damning of the human race in general and not any particular race or creed.

Which sources are those?

If I say that "George Washington preferred Macs over PCs", does that make me a source that suggests it might have happened therefore it is a possibility?

No sources have been put forward in this thread (by you or anyone else), and there are no references in those suspect links you provided. Someone just saying in a random website that it happened isn't a source. Makes me wonder, if they were making stuff up, why didn't they go all out insane....why not "Muhammad ate christian babies!" or "Muhammad's favourite book was Mein Kampf!". The most that could be done was Johnny making a claim that the Ayatollah made some claims (which again cannot really be backed up, since THERE IS NO VOLUME 4 OF THE TAHRIR-O-WASYLAH!).

A fatwah existing for something is not proof of anything. I can make a fatwa right now:
"EAT PRINGLES! ONCE YOU POP YOU CAN'T STOP!"

So this proves that Muhammad had a penchant for potato crisps?

PS: Amazingly, at the same time as this thread, this article came out:

5 Ridiculous Things you Probably Believe About Islam

I might be spoiling a great, hilarious read for you , but two examples:
#2. Western Cultures Are Far More Humane Than the Bloodthirsty Muslims
#1. Islam Is Stuck in the Dark Ages

Both false!

reply to post by babloyi


This may suprise you but none of that was new to me at all.

But none of it detracts from the activities of the extremists whose influence is growing within Islam, for various reasons, and some of whom help maintain the myth's mentioned in the OP.

You still can not bring yourself to publicly acknowledge that these myth's originated within Islam itself and that elements within Islam today help maintain and promote these myth's.
Instead you counter with 'what about this' or 'have you seen this'.

reply to post by Freeborn

Originally posted by Freeborn
You still can not bring yourself to publicly acknowledge that these myth's originated within Islam itself and that elements within Islam today help maintain and promote these myth's.

Hey, I'm ready to acknowledge. As soon as you show me where exactly in Islam (the Quran and Hadith, not the possible ramblings of a 20th century iranian) it shows that Muhammad practiced "thighing", I'll accept it.

I SOOOO love the circular logic of Muslims on their only writings. The Hadith is unreliable and contradictive. That's one of their answers when you show them the verses! Unreliable and contradictive?

You THINK?

Muhammed was illiterate and after he died, and the ones who were with Muhammed were getting killed off, they decided they better put all this stuff together.

Their source material was several recitals - now THERE'S an accurate means, things written on bark, rocks, and such a disjointed amount of source material, the man tasked with putting it together refused. It was that big of a mess.

So now when you show a text or verse, you're damn right! They make no sense! There was no continuity!

The Qur'an provided ZERO time context. I mean, ZERO.

The only way one can attempt to connect certain portions of the Qur'an is to turn to the Hadith.

But then they tell you THAT'S a BS, unreliable document.

Yet the Five Pillars of Islam? Where, exactly are those found?

THEN, you find that the Qur'an was altered, verses were abrogated, and much was left out. That's by those who put the Qur'an together!

A delusional illiterate, the perfect prophet for an ignorant people.

And through force alone, it's become a religion.

Discernment.

One must be able to discern BS when it's right under their nose.

Or not.

reply to post by babloyi


As I have repeatedly stated there is mention of it occurring so it is a possibility.
What is hard to understand about that?
I have been as clear as can be on several occassions.
That you choose to disagree is entirely up to you.
But your insinstent reluctance to discuss anything to do with the points raised in the OP of this thread is puzzling.
One is not reliant on the other.
I can only assume that your reluctance is because I am correct in stating that the myth's oozy highlighted in his OP did in fact originate in Islam and elements within Islam actively promote these myth's to this day.

Originally posted by Freeborn


But millions of people believe The Bible is the word of God, that Mohammad was deluded and that The Koran is nothing more than the rantings of a madman.

It is not about numbers, it is about the truth.
The highlighted part is your opinion.

Who is right?

Depends who follows the truth. The world is not black and white.

I don't know; I try to deal in facts and not blind leaps of faith and the unprovable is just that - unprovable.
And as a result the use of scripture, of any type, is in my opinion flawed and completly unreliable.

Depends how you look at it really and it depends on who you believe, based on what evidence, based on what facts etc.

But we have drifted slightly off topic; the point I have been trying to make throughout this thread is that Muslims themselves should be at the forefront of efforts to dispel the myth's that you highlghted and which are propogated and promoted by elements within Islam itself.
Preaching to the likes of me will not stop the spread of these myth's.

Yes, and I'm trying..
I'm going to the mosque and having discussions with the preachers, or teachers there.

They keep laying forward the Hadith, I keep arguing that Hadith has no importance in this day and age, other than history.

Yes the Islamic history should be glorified, but it should be copied, we are only suppose to learn from history.

History is not a revelation, Quran is.

reply to post by oozyism


The actions, and words of the prophet of Islam say something entirely different from what you claim.

The first action the newly converted Muslim made, by word of their prophet Muhammed even though he was dead was to spread Islam by the sword.

Muhammed himself went against many of the mandates that "supposedly" were told to him by the Angel Gabriel, among them was that Gabriel "supposedly" told Muhammed that any man could marry UP TO 4 wives if he had enough money to maintain them, Muhammed took 12 wives, including a child, and many of them were "spoils of war" also known as slaves.

Muhammed unfortunately was a raider of caravans, a murderer, and a rapist. His most ardent followers to this day are only following his example, and that example was not one of peace, and equal rights.

Those "ardent followers of Muhammed" are islamic extremists. However, I am not saying all Muslims are the same, many moderate Muslims have been murdered for not wanting to follow the extremist part of Islam that Muhammed was known for following.

Oh for crying out bloody loud. Who cares? It's still based on the same old bible bullsh*t designed to imprison us all in the farce we all believe to be religion. GOD does not exist!!! Get over it!!! Shake hands and let us all get on with each other.

We are all humans? Correct?!!

Shake, kiss and be proud. forget our petty differences with colour and let us get on to live in peace as HUMANS!!!

Well once the Iranians have repealed the book they can claim that it never existed, this web page clearly gives links to pictures of the book at one time yet all the content seems to have beem scrubbed or hacked www.militantislammonitor.org...


Here again is a discussion of this 4th vol.......en.wikipedia.org...:Tahrir-ol-vasyleh#Origins_Of_The_Allegation

The second section lacks any exact citations that cite the page number or problem number (the first one lacked them as well, but I managed to find it, however : www.tooba-ir.org... The problem #1 in this subsection is talking about the punishment of having sex with animals, and it is considered as a universal fact that sex with animals is illegal by the Shia.

As for the first problem, I did some research, which I will share here : The Arabic of the first lines, which are the controversial bits are "لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين ، دواما كان النكاح أو منقطعا ، و أما سائر لاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى فى الرضيعة ،"

Meaning (I know a Persian and English and a bit of Arabic) This is what it means : Having sex with the wife is illegal before reaching nine years, be it a permanent or a timed [timed marriage in shia], but the rest of acts like foreplaying [touching for sexual pleasure], hugging and Tafkhid is legal even with a baby.

First, Sodomy is considered a kind of sex and penetration. Secondly : Now on the meaning of Tafkhid : Tafkhid as I researched, does not mean Sodomy. It means : en.wikipedia.org... First in his discussion, more than one source is given that translated Tafkhid as Intercrural sex: www.iranclubs.org... تفخیذا - ای یضع ذکره بین فخذیها - و This is another arabic translation, that puts Tafkhid as "putting his member between her thighs" Another person : از المنجد :

تفخیذ : هم زانو شدن ، در گرفتن ، در ران کردن چیزی را ، نسبت کردن هر فخذ را به سوی قبله ای . Again, meaning Intercrucal

Under masa'ala 12 : www.tooba-ir.org... you can find the link to this : www.tooba-ir.org...


However enough about the Shia - lets talk about the Sunnis:, here again they confirm the view that Muhammed consumated his marriage at 9yrs old and is therfore considered normative.


Saudi Marriage Officiant : 'It Is Allowed To Marry A Girl At The Age Of One'.

www.liveleak.com...



Aired on LBC TV (Lebanon) - June 19, 2008 - 00:03:08 :
Dr. Ahmad Al-Mub'i, a Saudi Marriage Officiant: It Is Allowed to Marry a Girl at the Age of One, If Sex Is postponed. The Prophet Muhammad, Whose Model We Follow, Married 'Aisha When She Was Six and Had Sex with Her When She Was Nine :
Following are excerpts from an interview with Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi, a Saudi marriage officiant, which aire More..d on LBC TV on June 19, 2008:

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: Marriage is actually two things: First we are talking about the marriage contract itself. This is one thing, while consummating the marriage – having sex with the wife for the first time – is another thing. There is no minimal age for entering marriage. You can have a marriage contract even with a one-year-old girl, not to mention a girl of nine, seven, or eight. This is merely a contract [indicating] consent. The guardian in such a case must be the father, because the father's opinion is obligatory. Thus, the girl becomes a wife... But is the girl ready for sex or not? What is the appropriate age for having sex for the first time? This varies according to environment and traditions. In Yemen, girls are married off at nine, ten, eleven, eight, or thirteen, while in other countries, they are married off at 16. Some countries have legislated laws forbidding having sex before the girl is eighteen.

[...]

The Prophet Muhammad is the model we follow. He took 'Aisha to be his wife when she was six, but he had sex with her only when she was nine.

Interviewer: When she was six...

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: He married her at the age of six, and he consummated the marriage, by having sex with her for the first time, when she was nine. We consider the Prophet Muhammad to be our model.

Interviewer: My question to you is whether the marriage of a 12-year-old boy with an 11-year-old girl is a logical marriage, which is permitted by Islamic law.

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: If the guardian is the father... There are two different types of guardianship. If the guardian is the father, and he marries his daughter off to a man of appropriate standing, the marriage is obviously valid.

[...]

People find themselves in all kinds of circumstances. Take, for example, a man who has two, three, or four daughters. He does not have any wives, but he needs to go on a trip. Isn't it better to marry his daughter to a man, who will protect and sustain her, and when she reaches the proper age, he will have sex with her? Who says all men are ferocious wolves?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

See how the OP has nothing to do with Mohammad?

What Mohammad did, or did not do is history, we learn from history, we don't copy it.

Originally posted by oozyism
See how the OP has nothing to do with Mohammad?

What Mohammad did, or did not do is history, we learn from history, we don't copy it.

It has everything to do with the OP, Mohammed is the prophet to whom supposedly the Angel Gabriel appeared to in a cave and told him what to write in the Quran. Mohammed didn't write the Quran, since he didn't know how to read or write, but he told scribes what to write.

Mohammed is the main prophet of Islam, and what he did, and how he lived is an example to the most ardent followers of islam.

Beleive you me, if Jesus had lived the same way that Mohammed did Christianity today would be a lot more different, and if you think Christianity's past was bloddy, imagine what it would have been if Jesus had done what Mohammed did.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Quran is the word of GOD.

GOD and Mohammad is two separate entities.

Mohammad simply brought the message of GOD to us. He was nothing more than a man.

This thread is just going round and round... Islam this, christianity that... 40/50 pages later everyone will still be at each others throat and all because of the irrational BS that is religion!

No one needs an imaginary man to dictate how you should or shouldn't live your life and neither does the lack of "God" mean that you can't be a good human. The prejudice caused by religion is huge and we see it on a day to day basis (i.e. in this thread where accusations fly back and forth).

I can't claim that "god" doesn't exist as i have no evidence but that lack of evidence does make it pretty clear that there is a BIG chance that there is no "god".

So who cares if you get 72 virgins or not? Just live your life, with a free mind, have empathy for your fellow human and i'm sure that if there's a "god" and a judgement day, he'll understand that you did the best you possibly could whilst on this planet!

5 myths ?

Why bother. There is only one myth repeated constantly regarding all organized religions.

The one true way.

Poppycock. Organized religions are tools of control. No man needs a guidebook to teach him. That is simply submission.
The laws of "man" have evolved why not the laws of religion ?
Islam, Christianity etc. All scared children stumbling around in the dark seeking an adult to light their way.

reply to post by Freeborn

Originally posted by Freeborn
As I have repeatedly stated there is mention of it occurring so it is a possibility.
What is hard to understand about that?

Because it is illogical nonsense. If someone "mentions something", it becomes a possibility, no matter who it was and when it was that he did the mentioning? So what, according to me, now I'm telling you, the Pope advocated the wholesale slaughter of Bulgarians. Is it a possibility now?

I'm not disagreeing in the least. Show me where. A referenceless text on some unverified website text does not make everything a "possibility". Otherwise...you know, there is this land called McDonaldland, and the king is Ronald McDonald. You know it is true because I am telling you.

so when a Muslim ends up in Paradise he will have ANYTHING, right?

imagine, then, a new Paradise citizen wants these rights as a part of promised everything:

1. to pig out on pork for eternity
2. engage in gay sex for eternity
3. convert to Christianity/Scientology
4. smuggle people out of Hell so they can have some fun too.

will he be granted his wishes? if the answer is yes, then what`s the point of abstaining from pig meat during your Earth life?

Originally posted by delicatessen
so when a Muslim ends up in Paradise he will have ANYTHING, right?

imagine, then, a new Paradise citizen wants these rights as a part of promised everything:

1. to pig out on pork for eternity
2. engage in gay sex for eternity
3. convert to Christianity/Scientology
4. smuggle people out of Hell so they can have some fun too.

will he be granted his wishes? if the answer is yes, then what`s the point of abstaining from pig meat during your Earth life?

1. Yes.
2. Yes, but remember, we still don't know what homosexuality is. If it is a mental disorder, then that will be fixed. Duuh.
3. Yes, but I don't think there will be many people in heaven who wouldn't know the truth.
4. Yes, but at that time, people will know the crimes they have committed, I don't think their will be many who would want them to come out of hell.