PART 2 of [To anyone Islamic...]

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posted on Jul, 5 2004 @ 12:32 PM
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Hello again Raphael_UO

That thread was closed but you didn't get my reply about your misunderstanding of my (Islamic) interpretation Qur'an, if we aren't allowed to carry on our chat then hopefully we can go elsewhere if you wish to learn more. Please email or U2U me if necessary because it is pretty disturbing for me (not meant in a bad way) that you view Islamic doctrine that way:-

I read that link you gave which directed me to a post by someone who interpreted the Qur'an to mean that "Jesus is a Spirit of God, in that God placed his very own Spirit into Jesus." In my opinion this is worded as a very misleading statement especially if you have a belief in the Trinity. I don't know if that poster is actually a Muslim (I suspect not?), however you can choose to believe my version or that, or read the Qur'an and decide yourself:-

Here's the story according to the Qur'an and I hope I make it absolutely clear:-

Creation of first man, Adam:-

Qur'an 38:71-2 says what means:
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

This verse says that Allah "breathed" a "spirit" (Ruh) into Adam. You might ask, is the spirit
actually part of Allah or in the sense of "belonging" to Allah.

  • If it was part of Allah then Allah would have now have a God partner, Adam. Elsewhere, the Qur'an says that Allah has no partners. So it must mean something created and given, rather like me making something and giving you "my creation"

  • The analogy of "breathe" is appropriate because the air we breathe out is not part of us, nor was it ever actually part of us.

    So the spirit He gave Adam was just a creation of His.

    What is the spirit (soul) He gave Adam:

    Qur'an 17:85 says what means:
    And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

    So it is something that Allah does not explain entirely. Maybe through science we discover something about it or maybe He will tell us someday, who knows whether it's physical or something Unseen.

    Note: I used Shakir's translation where he calls it the "soul," not spirit, because some explanations seem to believe this verse refers to Gabriel due to Gabriel being called a Spirit also. It's a point of confusion but should be clear in context.

    Does everyone have this spirit (Ruh or soul) that Adam was given:-

    Qur'an 32:7-9 says what means:
    Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
    Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid;
    Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His Spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!

  • The first line specifically refers to Adam's creation. (Eve was created too, but explained elsewhere)

  • Because of the lower case "his" in the second line, it means Adam's seed was a fluid (sperm). So this refers to the creation of humans from humans.

  • Then to form another human, Allah fashioned him (inside the womb) and breathed into that new baby that spirit (or Ruh, or soul).

    So yes, each subsequent human gets this spirit before birth.

    Another set of verses simply give more detail to this "fashioning" part of biological reproduction (Adam was created differently, but this will apply to Jesus):-

    Qur'an 23:12-5 says what means:
    Verily We created man from a product of wet earth;
    Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;
    Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! Then lo! after that ye surely die.

  • The first line relates that we are initially made up of the same matter that Adam was made from, just molecular compounds.

  • The seed relates to the idea of the egg burying itself into the safe lodging of the womb.

  • It grows into a lump, bones and flesh form.

    Note that it does not mention spirit here, but this just refers to the fashioning segment mentioned before.

    Did Jesus get this spirit:-

    Qur'an 4:171 says what means:
    O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

    From this verse Jesus is:

  • made from Allah's Word (just like Adam was, see below), but unlike other humans.

  • given a spirit ("Ruh," soul) from Allah, just like everyone is.

  • the son of Mary

  • only a Prophet of Allah

    What is meant by the Word of creation used to make Jesus (and Adam, see below):-

    Qur'an 3:47 says what means:
    She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

    So it was just easy for Allah to create him with a single command.

    How did I find out that this Word used to make Jesus is the same used to make Adam:-

    Qur'an 3:58 says what means:
    The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.


    Unless I haven't been clear:- The idea of Jesus being God or that God (Holy Spirit) comes into us is absolutely not the case in Islam. Let me know if you don't understand or find a conflicting verse etc.

    M


    [Edited on 6-7-2004 by mithras]

    [Edited on 7-7-2004 by mithras]




  • posted on Jul, 5 2004 @ 07:23 PM
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    I thank you for taking this time.

    I do not quite understand why the other thread was closed, but I do not believe a thread in which people are still learning has served its usefulness. Unanswered questions are ignorance. The purpose of this sight is to Deny Ignorance. Even if the questions do not have a "?" at the end, they are visible to any who wish to see.

    I can see naught but truth in the verses you have shared. At the same time I see naught but truth in the Truth I have been taught. You may see this as a contradiction, but two Truths never contradict, they are simply misunderstood.


    Qur'an 4:171 says what means:
    O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

    From this verse Jesus is:

    • made from Allah's Word (just like Adam was, see below), but unlike other humans.
    • given a spirit ("Ruh," soul) from Allah, just like everyone is.
    • the son of Mary
    • only a Prophet of Allah



    Indeed, it is misunderstanding which I believe these words intend to correct.

    If one says "Trinity" and does not understand the truth behind it, it is easy to become confused. Indeed, the label "Trinity" requires more "labels" in order to explain what it really means. Words describing words describing words describing the Truth. The more words that are used the harder it is to understand. If a misunderstanding prevents a person from understanding "God is. Love God. Live God." it is better for you to not try to understand it. Indeed, it does not need to be taught at all, as long as you can be taught "God is. Love God. Live God." and then teach that to your children.

    Many Christians do not understand the Truth that is the Trinity. Because of labels. Indeed, they do not see the hand because they look at the parts.

    When I was a Child I was taught by men the things the Qur'an warns against. I was taught God was one of three, but yet God was also Jesus and the Holy Ghost. If I were to use my hand analogy, I was taught "see the fingers come from palm and the thumb comes from palm, but they are all made of the same stuff. You can cut off the fingers, and the palm is still there, you can cut off the thumb and the palm is still there, but if you cut off the palm, there are no fingers and thumb."

    While these things are "true in a sense", it is not a clear understanding of the Truth.

    When I argue that the Trinity is Truth, I do not argue that some (many) Christians do not understand. I argue that it is the Truth, and as such should not be "interpretted" to mean something other than that Truth.


    Edit: I apologize for not asking more questions so as to discover more Truths. I thought I would explain why I see Truth in things that appear to contradict. Remember, I do not claim the Qur'an is wrong, for I have yet to see anything but Truth. Also remember, I do not claim you have to understand the Trinity to believe "God is. Love God. Live God." nor to explain "Why?" to your children. I will likely be taking time off from this board for a time. The closing of the last thread, has left a bad taste in my mouth, and I need to discover another avenue to teach those who seek to "Deny Ignorance"

    Be in Peace my brother.





    [edit on 5-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]



    posted on Jul, 5 2004 @ 07:54 PM
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    Originally posted by Raphael_UO
    I do not quite understand why the other thread was closed, but I do not believe a thread in which people are still learning has served its usefulness. Unanswered questions are ignorance. The purpose of this sight is to Deny Ignorance. Even if the questions do not have a "?" at the end, they are visible to any who wish to see.

    While I haven't had time to respond to the thread that was closed I'm still puzzled as to what is going on at this board. This has been a profitable discussion and like you say it has not served its complete usefulness if there are still questions. I find it even more amazing considering the nature of some of the other topics on here that remain open. I think this is a very appropriate topic and is doing much to remove ignorance (including my own). Sorry mods, I don't agree with the decision to close it.
    Raphael and mithras, it could be worse, they could have moved it to belowtopsecret.



    posted on Jul, 6 2004 @ 07:00 AM
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    I have no problem and actually encourage this sort of information exchange but we have a forum for general discussion dealing with religion. This one is for conspiracy only. Having a thread moved is not an insult so don't take it that way. Its merely an attempt to continue continuity of said forum.



    posted on Jul, 10 2004 @ 03:28 PM
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    Mithras,
    I do not know if you are following this thread or not, but I am posting in the hopes that you notice and respond.



    Originally posted by mithras
    Here's the story according to the Qur'an and I hope I make it absolutely clear:-

    Creation of first man, Adam:-

    Qur'an 38:71-2 says what means:
    Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:
    "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

    This verse says that Allah "breathed" a "spirit" (Ruh) into Adam. You might ask, is the spirit
    actually part of Allah or in the sense of "belonging" to Allah.

  • If it was part of Allah then Allah would have now have a God partner, Adam. Elsewhere, the Qur'an says that Allah has no partners. So it must mean something created and given, rather like me making something and giving you "my creation"

  • The analogy of "breathe" is appropriate because the air we breathe out is not part of us, nor was it ever actually part of us.

    So the spirit He gave Adam was just a creation of His.


  • When I read the bible, one of the things I examine is the choice of words (labels). I do this because the meaning of what is being said is more important than the words used to describe that meaning. I often have to study the Hebrew and Greek texts from which the english was translated. This tends to put the translation into a proper perspective.

    One of the questions I use when studying the bible is : "If it is supposed to mean this, why is it phrased like that?"

    You said "This verse says that Allah "breathed" a "spirit" (Ruh) into Adam." I do not read it like that. The verse says "My spirit". Now I do not know if this is just a matter of translating this verse to english, or if the same "group of words" is used in every description of spirit and the meaning changes due to context. If the word "My" is in the original language (not a matter of mistranslation), and is not always used with "spirit" (context causing the word to change meaning) then there must be a reason this word was added.

    Since I cannot easily verify these two things on my own, I will work from assumption that these two things are not true.

    The Qur'an is interesting to me because there were not multiple "human components". Now because there is only one "human component" the way in which the language is used should be consistant throughout.

    If the Qur'an is "the Word of God", then adding this word has meaning. Your explanation lacks the description of this meaning. Looking at your explanation, I would believe the word had no meaning at all. If the word has no meaning, why is it used? If "my" means "a", why not just use "a" instead of "my"?

    "If it is supposed to mean this, why is it phrased like that?"

    Your other descriptions are adequate for now. Except:



    Did Jesus get this spirit:-

    Qur'an 4:171 says what means:
    O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

    From this verse Jesus is:

  • made from Allah's Word (just like Adam was, see below), but unlike other humans.

  • given a spirit ("Ruh," soul) from Allah, just like everyone is.

  • the son of Mary

  • only a Prophet of Allah

    Unless I haven't been clear:- The idea of Jesus being God or that God (Holy Spirit) comes into us is absolutely not the case in Islam. Let me know if you don't understand or find a conflicting verse etc.


  • Once again I am left with the question, "If it is supposed to mean this, why is it phrased like that?"

    The other verse which I knew concerning the Trinity, plainly said "Allah is not one of three and if someone says this, they blaspheme." (paraphrased. no intended disrespect)

    I pointed out that this is true in my eyes, for God is not one of three.

    Now, I simply ask if "So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah." means the trinity does not exist, why does it say "(it is) better for you" instead of "it is not so"?

    Because there was only one "human component", the use of langauge would be consistant. When refering to "one of three", Muhammed says is blasphemy. When refering to "Three", he says its better for you not to say this.

    "If it is supposed to mean this, why is it phrased like that?"


    I say both of these were warnings. The concept of "Trinity" can be confusing, and lead to misunderstanding.

    If one is taught about "Trinity" and thinks "God is one of three" it is blasphemy, and it is better if one is not taught the concept if the concept leads to this belief.

    Now, if the Qur'an specifically states "Those who say God is Three are blasphemers", I will be very surprised. Understanding what I was taught, I would say these words would not appear in the Qur'an, if there is only one Truth and 'your' God is 'my' God.

    .





     
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