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Originally posted by spy66
I thought we already established that Evolution was a part of Creation ?
I am getting dizzy going around in all these loops...
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by SpaceJ
Actually, I was cooking up some nice chicken.
As for creation vs evolution...we can know for sure. We are sure. There's mountain ranges worth of evidence in favor of evolution, yet none in favor of creationism.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by spy66
Originally posted by spy66
I thought we already established that Evolution was a part of Creation ?
I am getting dizzy going around in all these loops...
It is.
Evolution is a part of creation. Its in the Bible in Black and white.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Originally posted by spy66
Does it really matter if i do? You have chosen not to believe it anyway!
First you have creation then the creation evolves.
Verse 2. describes nothingness.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Verse 3. The cause of Gods spirit moving upon the face of the waters. The Creation of finite energy and matter.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
The light is a result of a cause.
Verse 6.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
From this point on everything evolves into what we can observe today.
How does Genesis chapter 1. Explain evolution?
Verse 7.8.9 and 10 are evolving steps.
1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
The evolution of organic matter:
Verse 11.
Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
It does say let earth bring forth all this stuff.
The evolution of life in the water:
Verse 20.
Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Cant argue with that either, that is also what evolution teaches us in school.
Living creatures on land:
Verse 24.
Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
As far as i understand this. Genesis chapter one is about creation and evolution. But i guess it depends on the person who reads it.
Science and biology is a good tool to use to understand this.
The sun comes into existence in the fourth day, which is after plants in this story. Why should I take this story as a scientific account?
In 1976, they were ready for their first test with cucumber seedlings. The photomultiplier showed that photons, or light waves, of a surprisingly high intensity were being emitted from the seedlings. In case the light had to do with an effect of photosynthesis, they decided that their next test -- with potatoes -- would be to grow the seedling plants in the dark. This time, when the seedlings were placed in the photomultiplier, they registered an even higher intensity of light. What's more, the photons in the living systems they'd examined were more coherent than anything they'd ever seen.
Greek LXX Online
καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός ἐξαγαγέτω ἡ γῆ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν κατὰ γένος τετράποδα καὶ ἑρπετὰ καὶ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως
Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Miss interpreting is the first sign of not being able to read.
But as i said it wont matter what i say or do.
You have already chosen what you want to put your faith in.
Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I do understand why you have been called a lot of things today and probably before. Because you dont understand what you read.
You must have a creation of something first to have something to observe or to have a observer.
With out your big bang theory you wouldn't have had much to talk about. Right?
Your Big Bang theory was created somehow.
In my last post i started out with nothingness and how finite came into existence. Verse 2 in Genesis describes nothingness.
Or how would you describe verse 2. Scientifically?
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
If earth has no from and no void, would you have a planet earth?
Probably not. Right? Well it depends on if you understand what you read.
To have evolution you must first have a system that can evolve and create the changes that are needed to have evolution.
You need the foundation for evolution to have evolution. That is a scientific fact.
You would need a system that earth and the system around it provides.
If not you you have nothing to talk about.
Genesis chapter 1. doesn't describe the details on how evolution takes place.
But that does not mean evolution doesn't take place.
But again it depends on how understand what you read. Or how you want to understand it.
You have made your choice on how you want to understand it.
And you dont want to understand it, because you dont understand what you read in Genesis chapter 1.
Plain and simple. You read the text and you compare it to science, but you dont understand how the science fits in, so you ignore it or deny it.
Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Seed76
I agree. If there is no sun earth would be cold and dark. So how did things grow on earth?
It is probably better that i ask you. That way you would have to think about it. Because that is all you have to do to understand your own question.
To be honest. I dont think you have the knowledge to figure it out. because if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by spy66
The Sun loses great mass and size daily.
Just imagine how massively HUUUUUUUUUUGE the Sun was 'billions' of years ago. By mathematical estimates it would have been over half the distance it currently is to the Earth. (93 million miles)
Yes, one friggin' cucumber seed growing the dark is total proof that the plants didin't require sun when god created them before the sun.
I tell you something, go into your local botanical store, buy 10 different seeds, plant them in a room entirely without sunlight...and come back in a week. Those 10 plants will strive, bloom, and sing happy little songs...right?
Genesis was written in Hebrew, not Greek. This language is not found in the original Hebrew versions of Genesis. Why should I take a Greek translation over a Hebrew original?
And please, don't try to argue for the scientific consistency of Genesis. I like penguins too much and would hate to put a sad face on a penguin.
Sure, you can grow seedlings in the dark, but it doesn't change the fact that the order of creation is wrong in Genesis.
It also identifies the Moon as a 'light' rather than a reflector. It just gets...soo...many...things...wrong.
In fact, if you're living in the USA, Canada, or Mexico you can prove Genesis wrong quite easily. Look at the sky on the night of the 21st of December. There is a total lunar eclipse.
Were Genesis right about the Moon it wouldn't matter that the Earth had gotten in between the Sun and the Moon...
Oh, the Genesis account also puts for the idea of geocentrism.
Now, this doesn't discredit the entire religions of Christianity and Judaism. In fact, they're a lot more robust than the first two chapters of their religious texts.
But it's incredibly easy to debunk anything but a metaphorical reading of the first two chapters of the first book of Moses.
Originally posted by Seed76
and sing happy little songs...right?
Now, let me tell you something. Sometimes is better to think twice, before you make such a reply.
Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Genesis was written in Hebrew, not Greek. This language is not found in the original Hebrew versions of Genesis. Why should I take a Greek translation over a Hebrew original?
It´s up to you which version you want to use. I am using the Old-Greek LXX, cause it´s the closest to the original Hebrew.
And please, don't try to argue for the scientific consistency of Genesis. I like penguins too much and would hate to put a sad face on a penguin.
Why should i argue?? I do not. The Bible is not a Science book. That´s why i do not understand what´s the point all the threads about Creation/Evolution. Creation in the Bible requires a Creator while Evolution does not. I do not know what is the situation in America, but in Greece where i am living we have a separation between Science and Religion. In fact i didn´t knew that is a big issue in America, till i joined ATS.
Sure, you can grow seedlings in the dark, but it doesn't change the fact that the order of creation is wrong in Genesis.
But it is possible that plants could have grown without sunlight, even if the Sun came after the plants. But we do not know, because we weren´t there.
It also identifies the Moon as a 'light' rather than a reflector. It just gets...soo...many...things...wrong.
But it doesn´t change the fact that the Moon shines.
In fact, if you're living in the USA, Canada, or Mexico you can prove Genesis wrong quite easily. Look at the sky on the night of the 21st of December. There is a total lunar eclipse.
Well i am living in Greece, and i do not know if we have clear sky to watch that event. If not i only hope that someone can post some good Photos.
Were Genesis right about the Moon it wouldn't matter that the Earth had gotten in between the Sun and the Moon...
Not quite sure what you are implying here. I do not recall that in Genesis says about Lunar Eclipse.
Oh, the Genesis account also puts for the idea of geocentrism.
Also that the Genesis account requires a Creator.
Now, this doesn't discredit the entire religions of Christianity and Judaism. In fact, they're a lot more robust than the first two chapters of their religious texts.
Of course it does not discredit.
But it's incredibly easy to debunk anything but a metaphorical reading of the first two chapters of the first book of Moses.
Then i suppose it´s alright to make fun of it?
And why would a normal person try to debunk it. What´s the point. The Bible is not a science book. I do not think it´s so hard to understand it.
Oh by the way, i have posted a link on my previous post here it´s worth to read it. It simply says that the BBT could be wrong. The reason for it is that they discovered a cluster that according to the BBT shouldn´t even exist. And if that´s true, then the Scientists, gonna have to rewrite the BBT and the Theories before.
Well, you could just use the original Hebrew, which can be found on the website you actually provided a link to, Blue Letter Bible.
And sure, some plants could have grown...but that's not in a situation without the sun. That's in a situation without light. Plants still require a certain temperature to grow.
The Moon doesn't 'shine', it reflects. It's a reflector.
Actually, we're not going to be able to see it on this hemisphere. It's only visible from North America this time round.
Genesis refers to the Moon as a light. If this were true it would be impossible to cause an eclipse, as it would simply keep on shining.
I can't seem to find it on here. And I don't tend to trust science journalism, they overhype things far too often.
What we want between members of different religious groups is, in a word, "tolerance." Tolerance isn't relativism. It isn't the idea that each person has their own truth. It also isn't anti-realism. You can be tolerant and think that one religion is true, and the rest false. Now, there are limits. I can laugh at the Westboro Baptist Church and Pastor Jones, the almost-Koran-burner, but that's because I'd be laughing at people who are grossly disrespectful. These people waive their right to certain (but not all) forms of respect. Obviously, the minister at Coyne's blog is no Pastor Jones.
Can tolerance really be expected from atheists? You might think No. After all, Christians and Muslims (for example) have things in common. They "believe in belief," as Dennett puts it. They're pro-religion. They're often said to worship the same God (does that concept even make sense, if there isn't a god?). So you might think there's more of a basis for mutual respect there. But surely not really. It's a huge, huge thing to disagree about the divinity of Jesus. It's got to shock Christian sensibilities that Jews and Muslims "just say no." It's got to shock Muslim sensibilities for the Koran not to be seen as the word of God, by Christians and Jews. There's plenty of room for sharp disagreement between members of different religions, as history painfully proves. So surely it's not true that atheists disagree with all religious people just too much for mutual respect to be a possibility.
So here's my suggestion to atheists: speak to the religious as you would have Christians speak to Jews, Jews to Muslims, etc. Making it sound more Kantian than Golden Rule-ish: conduct yourself in a way you could universalize. In other words: follow the policy, where tone is concerned, that you'd want everyone else to follow. How 'bout it?
Originally posted by Seed76
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
Well, you could just use the original Hebrew, which can be found on the website you actually provided a link to, Blue Letter Bible.
Actually i am doing that. I am comparing the words, with it´s meanings. But the Greek words are specific.
And sure, some plants could have grown...but that's not in a situation without the sun. That's in a situation without light. Plants still require a certain temperature to grow.
True, but the seeds are been planted in the Ground or not?
The Moon doesn't 'shine', it reflects. It's a reflector.
True. When you observe the moon from the earth, you do not say "Oh look the Reflector". I hope you understand what i am saying here.
Genesis refers to the Moon as a light. If this were true it would be impossible to cause an eclipse, as it would simply keep on shining.
I think it´s metaphorical meaning.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
I can't seem to find it on here. And I don't tend to trust science journalism, they overhype things far too often.
Here is the link. I posted it on page 8 of this thread. www.abovetopsecret.com