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Should murders and child molesters be set free?

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posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 10:52 PM
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This is philosophy..a simple pondering question.

In the future, there may be ways to remove or add memories to people.

Would society be in favor of taking criminals, such as murderers, rapists, basically lifers and simply wiping their minds clean, retraining them through general education, then releasing them in back in the public with no record whatsoever?

Would you favor that in general, or is the justice system also a vengence system

If yes, then answer: Would you feel comfortable seeing this new person in a murders body...if it was your family that was the victim?

if no, then answer: Should medieval torture be allowed in prison?




posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
This is philosophy..a simple pondering question.

In the future, there may be ways to remove or add memories to people.

Would society be in favor of taking criminals, such as murderers, rapists, basically lifers and simply wiping their minds clean, retraining them through general education, then releasing them in back in the public with no record whatsoever?

Would you favor that in general, or is the justice system also a vengence system

If yes, then answer: Would you feel comfortable seeing this new person in a murders body...if it was your family that was the victim?

if no, then answer: Should medieval torture be allowed in prison?


I am not in favor of wiping memories clean my friend. I am in favor of getting to the root of the pain which caused the crime, healing the underlying problem that causes this pain and letting them live free.

The same treatment applies to the victims. Heal their pain and help them to forgive.

This is a society endeavor. It takes the whole society to heal such pain.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


This is a very interesting proposition and goes to the real heart of the matter... The question of environmental effect upon the deviant.

Are bad people born, or are they created through experience?

If it turns out that the urges to commit crimes, such as murder, rape, and molestation are due to the experiences that the perpetrator has suffered then, obviously, from a rational perspective ( eliminating the need for "revenge"), the idea of simply "retraining" them, though a memory wipe and reeducation would be way more humane and, more importantly, financially responsible, than housing them for extended periods of time in jail.

But if bad people are just bad. If it's just who they are?

Well, either way, if a program like this were initiated - the downfall would come when the first "subject" fell into recidivist behaviors. It'd take just ONE backslide to make people doubt the program. Or so I would think. It'd make for one Hell of a soundbite at least. And we all know that good soundbites dictate public opinion.

Ultimately though, we have to address the reality that jails are not really about rehabilitation. They are about revenge. They are about the common good - and our need to think that bad people are punished. We don't seek these punishments for any positive outcome. We don't want to forget and forgive. We want trespassers to bear scarlet letters and to be marked. We want them to suffer.

Until we can overcome our inherent need for vengeance, no program, effective or not, at eliminating criminal urges, will ever work. We enjoy a world where we can point at others and feel they are "less" way too much to give it up.

~Heff
edit on 12/16/10 by Hefficide because: grammar



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:05 PM
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eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth

1) round up all *rapists, *child molesters, and *murderers.

2) put them on a large island and let them do as they please.

3) let none escape of course.

4) let natural order take is course

5) go in and clean up, thus creating jobs and lowering our taxes for paying to keep them alive in comfort.


* = violent and unsuitable for society.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by WJjeeper
eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth
This is the simple most unproductive wasteful answer to the problem.


1) round up all *rapists, *child molesters, and *murderers.
How many would admit ? Should we lie detector test them all ? is there a gene ? what characteristics do you assume to "round up " with ? what basis can you distinguish a rapists from a child molester?

2) put them on a large island and let them do as they please.
Which would be to survive .... you set up the animal enviroment you better expect animal behavoir . This wont solve anything . But cause more problems then it fixes. food, security , shelter , human rights dead bodies , moral implication , etc.

3) let none escape of course.
oh no because there on an island right ? where there trying to survive find food shelter and maket he best of it and try and get along with the others untill they plan together and devise a way out ... then we have world wide rapings and child abuses because of the outbreak causing more victims and more rape children..... no cant let them escape....


4) let natural order take is course
this is artificial order you set up the enviroment ....you will get artificial results .. which in this case = alot of negative ( mutation if you will)

5) go in and clean up, thus creating jobs and lowering our taxes for paying to keep them alive in comfort.

todays prisons hold prisoners not rehabilitate . That is a problem in leadership game plans and mismanegment of the system. Not the systems fault we put clowns at the wheel year after year . Go in clean up what ? the dead bodies ? picking up dead humans is yoru idea of job creation ? you monster :
thank god we dont have pshycopaths like you in office .........................wait.....


* = violent and unsuitable for society.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
This is philosophy..a simple pondering question.

In the future, there may be ways to remove or add memories to people.

Would society be in favor of taking criminals, such as murderers, rapists, basically lifers and simply wiping their minds clean, retraining them through general education, then releasing them in back in the public with no record whatsoever?

Would you favor that in general, or is the justice system also a vengence system

If yes, then answer: Would you feel comfortable seeing this new person in a murders body...if it was your family that was the victim?

if no, then answer: Should medieval torture be allowed in prison?



Erases his memory sure but does not erase the crime. It is only a patch problem to the byproduct. like the posts above say we need to find the root cause of this fetish some people have and see what enviromental factors genetic etc are involved and fix it . No more patching up , no more painted rust..... let them be who they are so society can see what we shaped and not just brush them under the rug . The more we ignore it the worse it will get and the more patches they will come out with . We are robbing the future generations by passing these and 1000's of other problems to them .

Others will view the murder in the body regardless of his memory being clean, for all we know he could be faking it lol



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by SaturnFX
This is philosophy..a simple pondering question.

In the future, there may be ways to remove or add memories to people.

Would society be in favor of taking criminals, such as murderers, rapists, basically lifers and simply wiping their minds clean, retraining them through general education, then releasing them in back in the public with no record whatsoever?

Would you favor that in general, or is the justice system also a vengence system

If yes, then answer: Would you feel comfortable seeing this new person in a murders body...if it was your family that was the victim?

if no, then answer: Should medieval torture be allowed in prison?


I am not in favor of wiping memories clean my friend. I am in favor of getting to the root of the pain which caused the crime, healing the underlying problem that causes this pain and letting them live free.

The same treatment applies to the victims. Heal their pain and help them to forgive.

This is a society endeavor. It takes the whole society to heal such pain.

With Love,

Your Brother


Ultimately I agree.
Many, if not most, really serious crimes come from early trama of they themselves being a product of something rather horriffic and not getting the proper therapy needed to gain perspective
the "walk it off sport" mentality has produced endless unstable citizens in society. Psychology shows that basically left untreated, a molested child will end up producing highly self destructive patterns in life later, and potentially become the predator they earlier in life were subject to.

Psychology is really interesting when it comes to high crime offenders overall. Many say that some crimes simply are not "fixable"...what they mean by that is..there is no pill to give them, nor prison sentence that sets them right, because the problem is rooted in their subconscious often..acting out to try and control something that you were once not in control of..

I am not sure if typical murderers can be "fixed" overall...often its just a sociopathic view of life..perhaps some drugs to steady a inbalanced brain chemistry may help some cases...in others, psychological help, but often they are really just monsters that will not change much due to lack of introspection desires or care.

So..the question is...would a brain wipe be a good alternative to the death sentence (seeing it equals to about the same...the former person is simply gone).



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Are you defining "rapist" or "child-molester" from your own country and culture?
Globally, the majority of men the West would define in those terms are free.

How many men commit rape during war?
Can one imprison them all?

Even in Western countries, a rapist with a good lawyer and social support can walk free.

There are evil people and evil systems.
With evil people it is no good to erase any memory.
They had no conscience before the crime, and the have none afterwards.

With evil systems we must forgive each other's temporary insanity.
Here a memory should not be erased.
Our memory of social evil is all that stops us from repeating it.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by seedofchucky
Erases his memory sure but does not erase the crime. It is only a patch problem to the byproduct. like the posts above say we need to find the root cause of this fetish some people have and see what enviromental factors genetic etc are involved and fix it . No more patching up , no more painted rust..... let them be who they are so society can see what we shaped and not just brush them under the rug . The more we ignore it the worse it will get and the more patches they will come out with . We are robbing the future generations by passing these and 1000's of other problems to them .

Others will view the murder in the body regardless of his memory being clean, for all we know he could be faking it lol


the psychological community is pretty much in full agreement based on study and actual tests (monkeying around with the brain) that any and all reactions gained in life is who you are...you react and are the sum of your experiences..
The difference between a charity worker and a serial killer is simply life experiences...

There are of course some exceptions..bipolar, various physical mental health issue, etc..but for the most part..wipe the persons mind and you got yourself a brand new baby. Of course this can be done in areas effecting emotion..allowing the person to keep all knowledge without having much connection to them, like a book that you didn't write being accessable..
That would, in my opinion, be the better option, however, that might be a bit of torture..imagine seeing a horror movie, then someone looking at you and telling you that you did that..the movie was about you..and you were the monster.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Are you defining "rapist" or "child-molester" from your own country and culture?
Globally, the majority of men the West would define in those terms are free.

How many men commit rape during war?
Can one imprison them all?

Even in Western countries, a rapist with a good lawyer and social support can walk free.

There are evil people and evil systems.
With evil people it is no good to erase any memory.
They had no conscience before the crime, and the have none afterwards.

With evil systems we must forgive each other's temporary insanity.
Here a memory should not be erased.
Our memory of social evil is all that stops us from repeating it.


I wasn't trying to get too caught into the technicals...basically, whatever is the most unacceptable thing in your country...the grand slam of horriffic crimes you were convicted of by court.

The rest of your stuff flys fully against every credible psychological research done in the past 50 years. I assume that is just justice department propaganda verses accredited psychological references your stating.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:47 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 




Would society be in favor of taking criminals, such as murderers, rapists, basically lifers and simply wiping their minds clean, retraining them through general education, then releasing them in back in the public with no record whatsoever?
Uhhh...that's just about as unethical as murdering someone...you are destroying everything they are...not to mention psychopaths usually have certain areas of their brain that doesn't work as it should, there's a high chance they'll just become a psychopath again unless you fix the root of the problem. It could potentially work for pedophiles though.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I am surprised to see this sort of question raised on the most enlightened corner of this site, and outraged. Mind-Control, Mind-Obliteration, the creation of Zombie-like shell's, permitted to walk among the "righteous", and the "deserving"?

We are the Universe, we are Nature, we are Darkness and Light, we are Good and Evil. Each being contains the whole universe within himself, and the whole spectrum of choices, each being has the power to choose his own actions, each being must live and suffer the consequence of his choices.

What you are suggesting would make everyone, that went along with this charade, as guilty, as toxic, and despicable as any murderer, or child-molester. I, for one, would not want to live in such a society.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:51 PM
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For the crimes of murder, rape, and especially any form of child abuse or child rape, there really is only one proven method of correcting their behavior in such a manner that they will not return to their abomination-oriented behavior. It consists of a lobotomy with a .45 placed right up against the temple, shooting slightly down and slightly rearward.



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 11:53 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Many people got off under our Truth and Reconciliation Commission - as long as the crime was "political".
There are veterans, rapists and people formerly involved in genocide still walking about freely in many nations.

Otherwise I am adding my opinion to your interesting topic.
I truly believe there are "evil" people without conscience.
I also believe that otherwise "good" people can be indoctrinated to do evil things by an evil system.
I don't know what is wrong with this observation, because it is found in much literature.
However, for me, in neither case does eradicating memory seem beneficial.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
This is philosophy..a simple pondering question.

In the future, there may be ways to remove or add memories to people.

Would society be in favor of taking criminals, such as murderers, rapists, basically lifers and simply wiping their minds clean, retraining them through general education, then releasing them in back in the public with no record whatsoever?

Would you favor that in general, or is the justice system also a vengence system

If yes, then answer: Would you feel comfortable seeing this new person in a murders body...if it was your family that was the victim?

if no, then answer: Should medieval torture be allowed in prison?


The procedure you're talking about there is called "Depatterning" and it was developed by Dr. D. Ewen Cameron at the Allen Memorial Institute in Calgary, CA in 1958. In 1961 the CIA began funding the program under its MK-ULTRA operational pool. It was officially discontinued by the late 1960's although similar techniques are alleged to have been used by one of Cameron's students, Aziz al-Abub, in the 1985 kidnapping and death of CIA Operative William Francis Buckley.

It utilized heavy doses of psychoactive drugs, electro-convulsive therapy, and psychic driving and repetition tapes and resulted in a total wipe of the victims memory, personality and character. Repatterning proved to be much more difficult, and the "mistakes" which resulted ended up in several class action lawsuits against the CIA and the Allen Memorial Institute, which both organizations lost and paid out damages to the victims.

The technique is monstrous. In now way could I support depatterning as a form of criminal rehabilitation, it is nothing short of brainwashing. It is worse than the death penalty. There are things much worse than death, and that is one of them.

Nor do I agree that medieval torture be used in prisons either.

I do, however, tend to be somewhat of a cold pragmatist when it comes to extreme offenses. I don't really wnat to warehouse and feed them for the rest of their lives either. I don't really believe that rehabilitation is possible with certain mental subtypes and repeat offenders after a certain point. I'm one of those contentious people who thinks that society would be better off if we expanded the death penalty in certain criminal offense categories.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Should they? Yes, and with their memories intact.

Those who see punishment as an opportunity for vengeance rather than a deterrent must be very sure that they will never, themselves, be in need of their fellow man's mercy.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I'd rather set free a person who committed a murder of passion, than a child molester.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 12:23 AM
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Yikes - all reminds me of Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish.
Jail was initially only used to hold prisoners shortly until a severe bodily punishment was carried out, or later to hold debtors until they were ransomed.
With incarceration itself becoming the sentence, corporal punishment increasingly withdrew, and was replaced by mental anguish.
Much of the mental torture was caused by isolation and solitary confinement.
The new cruelty was meant to discipline, just like the swift public bodily pain before.
However now, it was meant to cause improvement (or "cure") by reflection.

Western countries will not stand for "medieval" punishments.
They like their torture and madness without physical scars.
edit on 17-12-2010 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 12:54 AM
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Very interesting question and some very intelligent replies so far.

I must agree with you that it seems our justice system is designed to appease society’s desire for revenge. To cure and rehabilitate should undoubtedly be the ultimate goal of imprisonment if we want to truly progress and advance as a civilization.

The potential for ‘brain wiping’ technology calls into question some deeper philosophical implications, specifically the debate on the existence of the soul/spirit and afterlife.

The way I see it, if we are fully mortal beings and our minds and bodies cease to exist at death, then yes, we should wipe clean the minds of our worst criminals and allow them to ‘start over’.

However, if there is indeed something more to life than this physical existence, if there is such a thing as Karma or some sort of law of cause and effect, if a person is something more than just genetics and environmental influences, then I would say no.

I guess there are two questions we need to ask:
1) Does conscience originate in the brain?
2) Is there any benefits to healing someone through therapy that cannot be gotten by simply erasing the mind?

As for the first question, I believe the current consensus in the psychology community is a yes. Though I admit I’m not completely convinced of that. As for the second question, I honestly don't know.

If the primary goal is to maximize safety, increase economic efficiency, and raise the standard of living by basically eliminating any unlawful citizens, then brain wiping would be an expedient tool to achieve those ends.

Obviously such technology could be disastrous if in the wrong hands, namely an oppressive controlling government, who could use this literal brainwashing to convert the dissenting members of society into conforming citizens.

So, if we assume that this physical reality is all there is to life, then I’m in favor of the proposed method.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 01:02 AM
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I have more respect for murderers than I do rapists to be perfectly honest.

Really it'd have to be a case by case basis, I just couldn't justify in any way letting any person who sexually abused a child to ever be set free, that's just something I feel someone can't ever be redeemed, people like that don't ever deserve to be allowed out in the general public.
edit on 17-12-2010 by Gakus because: (no reason given)



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