It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

page: 39
24
<< 36  37  38    40  41  42 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
I can completely see where Undo is coming from. She subtly turned the question around from is it appropriate to show cleavage to is it ok to discriminate against bigger breasted women....

Hopefully you were able to keep up with all of this, and can debate and/or give your opinion without your mind getting all twisted around and confused just by thinking about boobs.


Thank you for that last part. It makes my upcoming point valid. I was going to keep this to myself but I guess we have to go there. This is the type of attitude that society has been putting up with for too long. If you're a woman you can have your cake and eat it too. That is the basis of the OP and undo's topical misdirection doesn't change that. I'm all for women's rights but I'm against women having all the rights.




posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by quantum_flux
Are you looking for a promotion at work HotBakedTater? Bosses always try to keep those types of employees down anyhow.
edit on 20-12-2010 by quantum_flux because: .
I am not discussing my personal life. The topic is cleavage in the workplace. This is how the debate works, one chooses a position and them debates that position. What I do for real in my personal life may not even be the position I argue. That's called debate-you post about the subject or topic, not me personally.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:10 PM
link   
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


Granted, you are right the argument could be applied to both sexes. To turn your argument around, my husband would have to be explaining to his boss why he didn't turn up in jeans and a tee if he wore a business suit to work. It all deals with what is appropriate and inappropriate to wear to work. Why is it ridiculous to expect an employer to tell its employees what is appropriate and not appropriate to wear to their place of business?

New employees definitely need to be told, since no two businesses are alike. If an employer is going to get upset over an employee not looking professional and dressing inappropriate, it really does need to be spelled out clearly whether it is for all employees or for each department. Each department could very well have different standards of dress. The office department wouldn't wear the same thing as the packing department, the assembly department, the parts department, or the cafeteria workers. It depends on what and how many departments a business has.

If the business has only general guide lines that can leave the door wide for a lot of different opinions and mis-communication between bosses, managers, and employees. What is considered appropriate to one person is not always considered appropriate to another person. What one manager will pass off as fine, another manager will call the person in and write it in their report.

A person can have a knowledge base of what is appropriate and inappropriate. The longer the person works at the company, the more they can get a feel of what is acceptable and what isn't. There can still be room for manipulation either on the part of the boss, manager, or employee.

I'm going to tie the original discussion of cleavage back in. Granted this thread seemed to come to a tentative agreement that cleavage in the workplace is really going to be determined by which workplace a woman works at. Some businesses will allow it and some won't. For those who don't, shouldn't it be spelled out and not just implied hoping the employee gets the implication? What if the employee doesn't?

Lets say a woman is hired, and she knows she needs to wear business suits, and the guide lines are general. She knows not to dress provocatively. To her provocatively is a night club outfit or a business suit in image C in my previous post. She thinks the business suit in image in B is fine. She wears those types of suits to work for a couple of years without anything being said to her. Then she is passed up for a promotion only to find out the suits she was wearing wasn't ok, but borderline. No one told her, or mentioned anything to her about it.

Is that fair to this worker?

Now let's take the case a little further. She is told she is borderline, and she modifies her dress to match business suit A. Then no one says anything after that. Her manager thinks it is fine. The manager doing the promoting doesn't, because it still shows a little bit of cleavage. She is passed up for the promotion.

Is that fair to this worker?

Now lets take it to the ridiculous. The lady was brought in again, and told it is inappropriate. She then fully covers up. After a couple of weeks, she is brought in again and told she is still dressing provocatively according to company policy that leaves wide open the definition of provocative. Then what is this worker suppose to do, and what clothes is she suppose to buy? She tries to buy more modest clothing, but never seems to get it right, since she is not sure what her manager considers provocative on her. She is passed up for the many infractions seen against her in her attire.

Now lets take this to the extreme. Say her co-worker who wore many of the same outfits she did got promoted, because the outfits were not seen as provocative on the other woman, because she was not as well endowed.

Now you may think I'm being totally out right ridiculous, because that could never happen in the work place right, or the people are really just too stupid to understand, right?

Yet the ridiculous scenario has already taken place, and mentioned in the major media with the woman bank teller, except she got fired instead of passed up. How many women actually get passed up because of the way they dress without even realizing it? Those who do, what really is their recourse, since the boss and/or manager will always claim another reason to cover their butts. They never really tell her exactly what she needs to do to be seen as presentable in the companies eyes.

Also the extreme situation has happened, and has been proven not only by Unod's own experience, but also by the women in OP's article that have had breast reductions just to be able to get the promotion. They took the extreme action, but how many more try to mash down, cover up, and hide what they have just to be taken seriously. Only to be defined by others by what they look like in what should be acceptable clothing, instead of being defined by how they work and their work accomplishments.

These women seem to be saying that there are groups of people including bosses and managers out there that think small breasts=intelligent woman and large breasts=floozy, unless the large breasted woman is extremely modest and conservative in their clothing. Other wise why have a breast reduction or try to mash down and hide them just to be able to be seen as an equal in the workplace?

This question also remains which of the women in the images in my previous post would be considered to be an equal co-worker and which one a floozy in a work place that required women to wear business suits and not look provocative? Yes I expanded the question, and left provocative open ended, which seems that may businesses do. Besides which they shouldn't have to be told what to wear, right?

I leave the question open to any one else who wishes to answer also. What is everyone's opinion?



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by Brood
I wonder what it would take for a woman to sexually harass a man with her eyes? "Leering" at his biceps? Groin? Butt? Good thing we're wearing clothes that cover these areas while we are at work so we don't have to deal with the natural compulsion to look at such areas.

Too bad it's all clearly a conspiracy against men.


I've had experience of this, when i used to be crawling around under desks trying to find a network cable or something then obviously my backside would be wiggling about. Several times women commented and we're not talking subtle, other times i got a whistle and once a slap on the backside with a ruler. I didn't report most of it to the people who i had contracts with simply because i knew it wouldn't be taken seriously. I did report the ruler slap, that was a bit too far and all that happened was that she had to apologise, no formal reprimand. Oh and she told everyone in that office i had reported her and i got the cold shoulder from every single woman there after that, really unhelpful.

The boss who got her to apologise even slapped me on th back laughing when she was out the room saying i should "get in there". That is how sexual harrassment is seen.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
I can completely see where Undo is coming from. She subtly turned the question around from is it appropriate to show cleavage to is it ok to discriminate against bigger breasted women....

Hopefully you were able to keep up with all of this, and can debate and/or give your opinion without your mind getting all twisted around and confused just by thinking about boobs.


Thank you for that last part. It makes my upcoming point valid. I was going to keep this to myself but I guess we have to go there. This is the type of attitude that society has been putting up with for too long. If you're a woman you can have your cake and eat it too. That is the basis of the OP and undo's topical misdirection doesn't change that. I'm all for women's rights but I'm against women having all the rights.
Women having all the rights? What does any of that have to do with cleavage in the workplace? This is not about cake, or eating. It is about bosses who discriminate on physical basis.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
It is? Pleas explain how anything in the OP is a conspiracy against men. It is clearly a conspiracy against women, by men with no self control.


My original statement was sarcasm to outline how ridiculous you sound. I have proven all of your stances 100% incorrect that you used to support this theory that this is a gender-specific problem. If you want to continue to IGNORE that and go ahead arguing as if what you're saying holds any weight... the behavior of which I have very much become accustomed to tolerated in threads like this.... there is a word that describes this kind of behavior.... and it's also quite "Typically American", if you will.

Here's a dare: prove to me how the enforcement of appropriate work attire is a gender-specific problem or check out.

I'll be happy to tell you that women get the lenience in the chest area already. If I wore a dress shirt and didn't have my collar button done up, I would get in trouble for that at work... Men can't just go around work with their shirts open for the workplace to see either.
edit on 20-12-2010 by Brood because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-12-2010 by Brood because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:12 PM
link   
The topic is women in the workplace who show cleavage being passed up for promotions. If you aren't looking for a promotion then I see no reason to "cover up your puppies".... other than showing cleavage and referring to it as your "puppies" being quite immature
edit on 20-12-2010 by quantum_flux because: .



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Brood
I wonder what it would take for a woman to sexually harass a man with her eyes? "Leering" at his biceps? Groin? Butt? Good thing we're wearing clothes that cover these areas while we are at work so we don't have to deal with the natural compulsion to look at such areas.

Too bad it's all clearly a conspiracy against men.


I've had experience of this, when i used to be crawling around under desks trying to find a network cable or something then obviously my backside would be wiggling about. Several times women commented and we're not talking subtle, other times i got a whistle and once a slap on the backside with a ruler. I didn't report most of it to the people who i had contracts with simply because i knew it wouldn't be taken seriously. I did report the ruler slap, that was a bit too far and all that happened was that she had to apologise, no formal reprimand. Oh and she told everyone in that office i had reported her and i got the cold shoulder from every single woman there after that, really unhelpful.

The boss who got her to apologise even slapped me on th back laughing when she was out the room saying i should "get in there". That is how sexual harrassment is seen.
I would have sued my coworker for sexual harrassment had they touched me like that. Outrageous.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:14 PM
link   
reply to post by Mystery_Lady
 


Well you've agreed it comes down to what is appropriate and so i can pretty much refute your entire post in a simple paragraph.

When a new employee turns up to work he/she can look around and get plenty of hints as to what is and is not appropriate dress. The intelligent people will look to the bosses and emulate them, the people who are a bit stupid and ignorant will look to their colleagues and make bad choices. Some of their fellow workers will no doubt be dressed to impress, professional clothing, others will be more dressed down, cleavage on display, the men who dress down might be scruffy or slightly unshaven. It is then up to the person whether they want to dress to impress the bosses or dress more to their own taste.
edit on 20-12-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984 because: spelling



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:15 PM
link   
I'm going to middle of the road the # out of this. While I think that within the confines of your work place dress code you should be able to dress however you see fit, you must keep in mind that how you present yourself has a direct impact on how people view you. Ask yourself, what is your motivation for wearing that outfit that shows your cleavage in all its glory? If it's to be sexy or for attention, you have just failed. We're talking about work, not the club. If you want to be taken seriously you should dress seriously. If I were a lawyer I wouldn't show up to court in jeans and a t-shirt, much less a speedo. If you wear clothing that can be mistaken as portraying you in a negative light, you must expect your superiors to pick up on that, and while they should be judging you by your work they also have to consider what it looks like when the girl purposely showing cleavage all the time gets promoted or what they perceive to be special treatment, in this age of pointless lawsuits at the drop of a hat.
edit on 20-12-2010 by duke396 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I would have sued my coworker for sexual harrassment had they touched me like that. Outrageous.


Firstly she was not my co-worker, i was self employed and had a contract to repair the computers in that office, secondly you just don't get it do you tater, men can't complain as easily and be taken seriously as proven by the idiot of a boss slapping me on the back afterwards. I could have gotten a lawyer and complained and i'd have probably lost, even if i won i would have found my contract would not be up for renewal the following year and that was one of my larger contracts.

As i have said to you many times, the world is not black and white.

Women in groups can be more sexually aggressive than men can, when that woman smacked my arse with the ruler the entire bunch of them laughed and giggled, now turn that around. Imagine a man had slapped a womans arse with a ruler, the guys wouldn't have laughed they would have hit him.
edit on 20-12-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:18 PM
link   
reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


Oh please. Your OP was all about I want to dress as I see fit, no matter what and then you go off on men "that have no self control." Sorry, I'm not going to let that pass. Like I said, "Have your cake and eat it too." Really it's our fault(society) for putting up with this attitude for so long.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:20 PM
link   
Another thing that is sexist is to say something like "men have no self control". The fact that you choose to show off your "puppies" in a professional setting indicates, on the contrary, that you actually are the one lacking self control.
edit on 20-12-2010 by quantum_flux because: .



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Brood
I wonder what it would take for a woman to sexually harass a man with her eyes? "Leering" at his biceps? Groin? Butt? Good thing we're wearing clothes that cover these areas while we are at work so we don't have to deal with the natural compulsion to look at such areas.

Too bad it's all clearly a conspiracy against men.


I've had experience of this, when i used to be crawling around under desks trying to find a network cable or something then obviously my backside would be wiggling about. Several times women commented and we're not talking subtle, other times i got a whistle and once a slap on the backside with a ruler. I didn't report most of it to the people who i had contracts with simply because i knew it wouldn't be taken seriously. I did report the ruler slap, that was a bit too far and all that happened was that she had to apologise, no formal reprimand. Oh and she told everyone in that office i had reported her and i got the cold shoulder from every single woman there after that, really unhelpful.

The boss who got her to apologize even slapped me on the back laughing when she was out the room saying i should "get in there". That is how sexual harassment is seen.


I'd say I'm surprised, but I used to work at a coffee shop here in Canada called Tim Hortons and this would happen pretty much any time a technician would come in to repair the machines. Sexual harassment is only possible if you have a penis. Beings with vaginae cannot sexually harass people... they flirtatiously mock, stereotype, and "just joke around" sexually with people verbally and physically while at work. That's totally okay
. Don't worry, though, it's okay -- men like it.... the women told us so.... and they know everything, man... hell... if women ruled the world... surely we would never start wars about nothing....


For the record, these women we're on average about 5'2" and 350 lbs ( ...and the technician was white
).
edit on 20-12-2010 by Brood because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-12-2010 by Brood because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by quantum_flux
Another thing that is sexist is to say something like "men have no self control". The fact that you choose to show off your "puppies" in a professional setting indicates, on the contrary, that you actually are the one lacking self control.
edit on 20-12-2010 by quantum_flux because: .
Um who said I show off my puppies in a professional setting? I don't recall mentioning my employment status. I offered an opinion on how I might react to such.

I am saying men have no self control, because more than one poster has claimed men cannot control themselves when they see cleavage. This is a lack of self control.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:24 PM
link   
reply to post by Brood
 


Where have you proven me wrong? Thats subjective. I firmly disagree.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:27 PM
link   
It is a logical fallacy called "stereotyping". One or two cases, or even many, does not necessarily apply to the group as a whole.
edit on 20-12-2010 by quantum_flux because: .



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Um who said I show off my puppies in a professional setting? I don't recall mentioning my employment status. I offered an opinion on how I might react to such.

I am saying men have no self control, because more than one poster has claimed men cannot control themselves when they see cleavage. This is a lack of self control.


No sorry tater, men have plenty of self control. If they didn't then they wouldn't simply look, they would reach out and have a good feel wouldn't they. Do you control when your heart beats? Because that is exactly what we're talking here, arousal is involuntary. Now if you claim otherwise you prove yourself to know nothing of neurology, arousal is utterly involuntary, it is what you do about it that's voluntary. And you have utterly ignored the point that women are just as guilty on this one. When a good looking guy walks into an office you will often see women going to pieces, they will look him over good and proper.

Men have plenty of control tater they are simply mammals, just like yourself and they will look, the control comes after that involuntary action, they force themselves to look up and meet your eye. They do that to show respect so maybe ease up on the guys. They do it because their thinking mind actually kicks in and they don't want to treat you like a piece of meat.

But what am i saying, you hate men, it's very clear from thread after thread where you have the attitude that men are always wrong. Lets be clear, there are some lecherous men and there are some sexually aggressive women, i would say it's pretty much even. Oh and sometimes when talking people will look down for any number of reasons, i tend to gaze downward when i'm thinking, whether i'm taking to a man or woman and yeah that can lead to confusion i'm sure.



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:39 PM
link   
reply to post by hotbakedtater
 



The topic is cleavage in the workplace. This is how the debate works, one chooses a position and them debates that position.


By seeing the "fighter" tag on your Avi You are also aware of how the outcome of a debate is Determined .

By the stars of the debaters in the thread. Right?

The consensus in this thread is that your argument has failed. And you have lost this debate Tater.
Count em!



posted on Dec, 20 2010 @ 01:40 PM
link   
reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


Yeah I see what you are saying. And yes, you took it the way I meant it. I would expect someone to put up a fight if they were being harassed or leered at. Thanks for the response!



new topics

top topics



 
24
<< 36  37  38    40  41  42 >>

log in

join