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Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

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posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by snusfanatic
 


i don't agree with the op, anyway. my theory is that it's projection, not a power issue. we humans have to realize that we tend to project unto other people, our own problems. there's a disconnect between biology and intellect and there really doesn't have to be. the two things should work as a team, at least, theoretically, this seems the best approach




posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I would say, you are welcome. Anything beyond that could be misconstrued. As I have said, it is not problem if the person looking has a problem with what God gave my chest area. And that problem can include someone whose self control is lacking.


Sorry but you keep talking about this lack of self control, what exactly do you mean? Do you honestly believe a man in the workplace is going to see your chest and be so overcome with desire he flings himself at you, burying his head so far down your cleavage it's like he thinks the ambrosia of the gods is at the bottom of it?

Also don't move the goalposts, this thread was about cleavage affecting promotion chances and how you are perceived in the workplace not men losing control at the sight of some skin. Business has certain standards and if you don't go along with them then you will miss out. However this isn't a female only problem, if men don't stick to certain dress standards then they will also miss out.
The man or woman who does not promote due to cleavage, as per the article, is the one with the problem, and the lack of control, not the woman wearing her god given assets on her chest.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


but it may not be an ego stroking thing as much as a " i think i look good in this outfit" thing. would be necessary to convince the lady that she in fact, doesn't look "good" in the outfit, for that setting, even though two seats down, there's another female wearing the same outfit, who doesn't look as "sexual" because she's not as chesty, and as a result, no one is bugging her about dress code.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


I absolutely agree with you. Thinking about projection is a good exercise in both empathy and psychological awareness. Enough awareness of projection and you actually feel like you are in another's shoes. It also makes it obvious just how malleable social "reality" is, and how much we constrain people based on our very own shackles It is very hard to get out of that maze, and then you realize you have to jump right back in. As long as the core lesson is learned.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater
The man or woman who does not promote due to cleavage, as per the article, is the one with the problem, and the lack of control, not the woman wearing her god given assets on her chest.



Wow that's some backward thinking, you're right your breasts are your best asset. The fact is that businesses want to project a certain image, in our society that means men wear suits and women cover up exposed areas while at work. If you realise this and still don't cover up then it is you that lacks control, the people covering up are controlling their behavior to excel in their chosen careers.


Originally posted by undo
but it may not be an ego stroking thing as much as a " i think i look good in this outfit" thing. would be necessary to convince the lady that she in fact, doesn't look "good" in the outfit, for that setting, even though two seats down, there's another female wearing the same outfit, who doesn't look as "sexual" because she's not as chesty, and as a result, no one is bugging her about dress code.



"I think i look good in this outfit" sorry but that's ego. A better question would be "do i look professional in this outfit".



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


well you can wear a professional outfit and still look sexy to some people, which i gave an example of in the "jugs" reference. not that i was even remotely sexy looking, as i think it was just meant as an insult. it's not like the high profile world of waitressing is something to put on airs about, but "peoples is peoples." ~ the muppets take manhattan
edit on 18-12-2010 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


there's no winning this man. once someone gets it in their head that there's a double standard about something, no matter how ridiculous, anything you say will just become part of that double standard in their mind, no matter how reasoned it is.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:36 PM
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posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Oh absolutely you can wear a suit covering your cleavage and still look incredibly sexy, actually i used to think a girlfriend i had looked especially sexy in her suit, especially with her glasses on...........sorry i got lost there, where was i? Oh yeah, the issue of looking sexy isn't the problem, some people are just sexy no matter what they do or don't wear. It is whether certain things are appropriate in the workplace that is the issue.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:40 PM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


So we should maybe all be a bunch of provocative little s***s, poisoning the wells, pushing buttons, working every angle, using every manipulative turn of phrase, sticking our fingers in a starving, rabid dog's mouth until it bites? Sounds like if we all adopted that mentality, we would just end up "testing" all the alphas until the only alpha left is the state. Had to work that in there. It is ATS.A world full of little bitches. Then the women will scream, "Where have all the cowboys gone?" But seriously, IF a response is deliberately provoked, you are responsible. It is far too easy to manipulate people in this world. Don't give me some dehumanizing crap about how they couldn't control themselves. IF a response is deliberately provoked, you worked every angle to unravel their self-control. IF there was no intent, then it is in that case lack of self-control on the guys part pure and simple. Only you and clever men know the answer to these questions in your case, however. You might work with adolescent pricks. You might be a succubus. Or anywhere along the spectrum. I don't know your situation.

Yes, sometimes a breast is just a breast. But sometimes there is intent behind those things, LOL. Smart and savvy adults know when they are being played. But we shouldn't have to be on guard for tests at all times. We sometimes need a break. Unless you wanna ****.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by orwellianunenlightenment
 


agreed. if you're willing to live in a world where you can use sex appeal to get benefits then you should be willing to live in a world where some people just don't buy it.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by orwellianunenlightenment
 


well seeing as how the alpha male has never lost his position as the king of the roost, for thousands of years, i doubt you have anything to worry about. i mean, here we are some 7000 years into recorded history, and women are even more covered than they were back then but apparently, we're still the big problem! err, our breasts are the big problem... even though every female mammal on the planet has the same exact set up (well almost the same), human versions are the downfall of societies everywhere.

and in reference to breasts being sexual organs and not feeding organs, does that mean moms are sexually abusing their infants when they breast feed them?



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by snusfanatic
 


what i'm saying is, 2 ladies could go to the same store and buy the same v-neck shirt. one would naturally be more conservative in appearance due to less than ample breasts, the other would be a little more risque' because she has more ample breasts, and why is that? she was born that way. but we punish her for wearing a size appropriate shirt, due to the ampleness of her breasts. she must therefore choose clothing that not only covers her breasts loosely (we're talking shirts that are at least a couple sizes too big for her), but doesn't perchance show some cleavage when she has to bend over for any reason, even slightly, which a larger shirt may do anyway, due to it's lack of form fitting. we're asking an awful lot out of ladies who just want to go to work dressed in a way they feel is most flattering to their personal appearance.

some guys wear neru jackets because they compliment their appearance. some wear double breasted suits, cause they compliment their appearance. a large breasted woman has to determine how her appearance in particular will be distracting in the work place, if she dresses in clothes that are complimentary to her appearance. which is where the problem is. unless there literally is a dress code that says you can't wear a v-neck, some ample breasted women will naturally show some cleavage in a v-neck, even if it isn't a deep v.


Sorry I call B.S. On the two women buying the same shirt. I am large breasted women and I do not have this problem with t-shirts. If I buy the same shirt as a smaller breasted women and it shows cleavage on me but not her its because the size I got was too small. t-shirt material stretches. Button down blouses however are a different matter but this is because they are made out of different material.

Cleavage is fine if you are out shopping, at a bar ect. but certain work places it is inappropriate. There are some work places were it's fine. Women working at Hooters get hired based on their cleavage, but if I worked in a place with a staunch professional atmosphere, I don't think I would have very much respect for other women who displayed cleavage because I would think that they weren't capable of determining how to dress appropriately for different situations. If I was the boss I wouldn't promote her either, but then again I wouldn't promote the guys who didn't have enough self control not to let it distract them either.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by orwellianunenlightenment
 


agreed. if you're willing to live in a world where you can use sex appeal to get benefits then you should be willing to live in a world where some people just don't buy it.


i agree with this statement, only in as much as you are a free individual with your own tastes for attire and social behaviors. beauty is indeed, in the eye of the beholder. i much prefer modesty now than i did as a single teen. you grow out of it, either as a result of biology, or as a result of understanding of human sociology.

one thing i didn't quite get as a young adult, was the standard of being socially acceptable to go to the beach in a bikini, but not show up to work in a factory in a form fitting tee shirt. everyone else had t-shirts on, but if you are large breasted, t-shirt is an advertisement.

here's an example to watch




posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I did say in my OP for jobs which do not require uniforms.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Listen, it was tongue-in-cheek. And the actual alpha male died out a long time ago (IMO). Centuries ago I would bet. The alpha males now are Yahweh, Jesus, political ideologies, all abstract things. Actually, I think Jesus was not only alpha, but a subterfuge, a foil, to tear down a warring tri-archy. Not gonna call it a patriarchy, either, because the poor and oppressed classes always had it worse off than women in general. Men, just like women, achieve power by riding the coattails of long dead original, creative, alphas. Sure, there are some innovators, but I think they are rare. I actually agree with the feminists that men in, say, the military, sports, etc.' having a chain of command in which orders are unquestioned and followed, are very un-alpha. Even though these men are considered alpha by many. And women, in my view, have had far more power than they like to admit. Did they always receive credit? Hell no. But I firmly believe that history was very much shaped by both masculine and feminine influence.

Ya gotta realize, a very simplified and personified version of what I believe is that some douche millenia ago put himself up as God (and probably supported by his equally power-hungry female lover) and forced us all to live in that worldview. We have been trying to play out that chess game for years, and we are almost finally done as a society. Men and women are in this together, LOL. It just FEELS so good, so right, to have these puzzle pieces together. History is rife with evil men and women and good men and women. I do not intend to be too black and white, but you catch my drift. Society and myopic individuals tend to blame one or the other per what the current zeitgeist dictates. Leaves in the wind blown by the fashions of society. Trust me, we all suck. But we are all so wonderful too.

Edit: I don't really think the alpha has died. I just think that what society can consider alpha is sometimes far off.
edit on 18-12-2010 by orwellianunenlightenment because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater The man or woman who does not promote due to cleavage, as per the article, is the one with the problem, and the lack of control, not the woman wearing her god given assets on her chest.


As I posted here: www.abovetopsecret.com... - you're right, but for the wrong reasons. The "lack of control" I had was over my other employees in the office, who clearly saw such a promotion as being based on sexuality, and the "problems" I had were stemming from that.

Thinking about that strange period of my life after I posted my experience, and something came to mind: the utter contempt that women in the office had for women who dressed in what they saw as an inappropriate manner for the workplace - and that's something, on reflection, that is universal enough: I've overheard the same conversations in four countries now. "X got promoted because she dresses like a tart. Must be doing the boss." kind of thing. That's damaging to a workplace environment, and damaging to the person doing the promoting, and ultimately very damaging to the person with the low neckline who got promoted.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


Uniforms and dress codes are mutually exclusive. Come on, you know this. I still plan on showing up to work in a banana hammock. There is no uniform, so I should be alright. Lawyers on here, PM me your number if you are licensed in Alabama, preferably situated in the Auburn area. I got me a lawsuit brewing.

BTW, you look eerily like my brother's wife, and he lives in Louisville. Your name isn't Dawn is it? And I apologize if I have come across as an ass. I just have a warped sense of humor.

Edit: To vox: I have noticed as well that women tend to be far harder on "tarts" than men, even some women who are anything but said "tarts". Ah, the joys of competition.

edit on 18-12-2010 by orwellianunenlightenment because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by vox2442
 


i think it's time to request that tater show us what she means by a v-neck. we need to see a photo or video that depicts a similar appearance to the one she likes to cultivate on the job.



posted on Dec, 18 2010 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I did say in my OP for jobs which do not require uniforms.


I never mentioned uniforms tater and i'm not sure where you got the idea i was talking about them. I said certain standards are expected from both male and female workers, men wear suits women are expected not to show too much skin, simple as that in a conservative business. If you don't like that then continue as you are and don't get upset if you miss a promotion.

Your whining is getting old, as is the way you abuse feminism and the word oppression. Feminism is not there so you can get everything you want at the expense of others.




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