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Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

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posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater

And as an owner of breasts, maybe it IS entitlement, because I AM entitled to do what I please with my breats, and if others do not like it, that is NOT my problem. Is that what you mean by entitlement?




It is this self centered nonsense that is the flaw in your argument, lets use your logic for a different body part shall we? As the owner of a penis i am entitled to do with it as i wish, therefore i will be letting it hang loose and free in the office breeze.

Now why isn't this allowed? Because in a work environment it isn't appropriate, if you don't like that extreme then how about simply showing off my chest at work? I should be allowed to walk around the office in an open shirt, even when the air conditioner is stuck on and my nipples could be used to cut glass. Why not? They are MY nipples are they not?

Yet if i were allowed to do this i don't think i would be getting a promotion any time soon because it wouldn't serve the companies image, unless it was a firm supplying outdoor equipment for nudists.




posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by Shikamaru
 


Sorry to tell you this but your example is flawed, what you should have done is use two lawyers, one with cleavage on show and one without, the one without will probably get the job because she looks more professional, the secretary is often expected to dress in a sexy manner. Not something i agree with but it's pretty common.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by Shikamaru
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


While I can understand your point with absolute agreement in what an image is to a company. I'll invite you to be realistic when it comes to the average man walking into a lawfirm and requesting an introduction to a lawyer.

Let's say he visits two law firms, one has a secretary with large breasts, perky, and showing a decent amount of cleavage, that equipped with her short skirt, favorably colored eyes, straightened hair with just a dash of highlights, skin soft like melted icecream, tanned to perfection, not bronze, but just perfect...

The lawyer himself shows a presentable reputation, and gives numerous grand expectations to the client, showing that he is the right man for the job.

And then he visits one where a women with the same body, is but she's covered from head to toe, wearing a burqa or a mask, no cleavage, no skirt, it's pants, shoes...

The lawyer here shows an equally presentable reputation, and gives an equal expectation to the client.

Now the client is left with a choice.

Where do you think this man is going to visit again... the office who can get the job and also has an attractive secretary?... or the office who can get the job down but who's secretary is completely covered from head to toe?

Sexiness Sells...
This is the world we live in...
People who actually have money to spend want to spend it where there are attractive modern people...
Look at night clubs... they are reaming with cute girls, but still a business. Are they now an "innapropriate" business?
Even a regular business may do this because they know that attractive employees sell the image that 1. the company is healthy and 2. the company is attractive and attracts attractive people.


We're not in the 50's anymore, people. Women have natural beauty that men crave and they use it. It's they're god-given nature's gift. And you want to conceal it because you deem it unprofessional, by what... today's standards? if we even have one that is... Old people go to business with old people working there. Sexy people go to business with sexy people working there.

All in all, this arguement or debate, or whatever you want to categorize it is kind of useless, because when it all comes to writing in stone, it's all about what ImaginaryReality1984 said: An "image". If the company wants a sexy image, they'll let the women wear what they want, if the company wants an old 1950's feel, they'll ask you to cover up. It's sad but people are so programmed, that it's almost impossible to change the system at this point.


I'm sorry to have to disagree but I must, you see there are certain exceptions when working in a professional business setting, and one of them is to show professionalism.

You may think sex sells and yes it does, however when most people including myself wish to conduct business with someone we look at these minor details and usually come out with a bad taste in our mouths.

You'd be surprised just how many people would take their business else where if they saw the women in their work place walking around looking like a bunch of floozies.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by Gakus
 


And you probably wouldn't be suprised how many people would keep their business there because of the sexiness. I'm sorry but your post sounds like the post of someone who thinks ONLY their views matter and not the views of everyone in general.

And I'm sorry to inform you, but in this country, sexiness sells, and sexiness can rule given enough people gave in. So yes, you're entitled to say you're not into it, but you can't deny that the amount of people who are into it or don't care about it, would easily outnumber the amount of people who find it "not so good".

All in all, it's like it's already been stated. Company guidelines and company image overrule anything an employee or customer has to say. And right now people like sexiness more than they like super-strict business attire.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

And as an owner of breasts, maybe it IS entitlement, because I AM entitled to do what I please with my breats, and if others do not like it, that is NOT my problem. Is that what you mean by entitlement?




It is this self centered nonsense that is the flaw in your argument, lets use your logic for a different body part shall we? As the owner of a penis i am entitled to do with it as i wish, therefore i will be letting it hang loose and free in the office breeze.

Now why isn't this allowed? Because in a work environment it isn't appropriate, if you don't like that extreme then how about simply showing off my chest at work? I should be allowed to walk around the office in an open shirt, even when the air conditioner is stuck on and my nipples could be used to cut glass. Why not? They are MY nipples are they not?

Yet if i were allowed to do this i don't think i would be getting a promotion any time soon because it wouldn't serve the companies image, unless it was a firm supplying outdoor equipment for nudists.
I can absolutely tell you the difference.

The penis is a sex organ, breasts are not.

That is why no one would allow a naked penis.

And cleavage is NOT full breasts, cleavage does not involve showing nipples, it is what if anything shows when wearing certain designed clothing.

Cleavage is not the same as walking around shirtless either.

The examples you provide are not even the same thing, so why are they being offered to counter the cleavage argument/debate?



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
...The super feminist women who don't show cleavage (or don't have it)


You don't have to be a feminist to practice a little common sense modesty in the workplace.
edit on 17-12-2010 by bigrex because: edit



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by Shikamaru
 


Sorry to tell you this but your example is flawed, what you should have done is use two lawyers, one with cleavage on show and one without, the one without will probably get the job because she looks more professional, the secretary is often expected to dress in a sexy manner. Not something i agree with but it's pretty common.


That's argueing symantecs. And that statement is just reaffirming the superficiality of this country, if not world. While I can't agree with the way things are, I most certainly will stand strong with my opinion.

I don't care if my lawyer dresses provacitively, as long as she can win my case while doing so. Me telling her she can't because she's showing cleavage is me being an utter idiot.


PS

I hope to god you people are not here when the free world comes around, because if you're going to get this over-critical about what people wear in a business, instead of what they're capable of, then I'm going to have to jump off a building than live in that big of a living hypocritical environment.
edit on 17-12-2010 by Shikamaru because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I can absolutely tell you the difference.

The penis is a sex organ, breasts are not.

That is why no one would allow a naked penis.

And cleavage is NOT full breasts, cleavage does not involve showing nipples, it is what if anything shows when wearing certain designed clothing.

Cleavage is not the same as walking around shirtless either.

The examples you provide are not even the same thing, so why are they being offered to counter the cleavage argument/debate?



No sorry your logic was that it is yours and a part of you so you should be able to flaunt it and anyway the breasts are innately sexual, if they weren't then you could show them in public without getting arrested and furthermore it has been pointed out to you that certain standards are expected in a working environment. If you don't like it then quit and stop complaining about missing promotions.

Your breasts serve no purpose in the workplace, outside of a brothel i mean, they are not assets in the work place, they will not help the company in any way or help you perform your role. The sole reason you want to display them is to satisfy your ego and guess what, your ego isn't needed in the workplace either. If your breasts are your big asset then you have very little to offer.

If you want to be respected then act respectfully.
edit on 17-12-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


You say that cleavage doesn't show the nipple...

Okay, how about all the guys can have the top of their shaft showing. Sheesh. Would you consider that to be a distraction at the workplace? yes. Cleavage is a distraction, and I think the worst part is we are forced to see it if you decide to have cleavage showing. What da hell. It would be like a guy having half his asscrack showing at all times.

Breasts are sexual.

Your arguments are no good for me. I strongly disagree with just about everything you have said in this entire thread.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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I think it depends on the amount of cleavage. If it's a reasonable amount, such as what a normal dress shirt would show, there should be no problem. However, if we're talking about a 3 or 4 inch show of cleavage, that tells me that the woman is trying to get everyone to focus on her breasts and not on her work.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by SolarE-Souljah
reply to post by hotbakedtater
 


You say that cleavage doesn't show the nipple...

Okay, how about all the guys can have the top of their shaft showing. Sheesh. Would you consider that to be a distraction at the workplace? yes. Cleavage is a distraction, and I think the worst part is we are forced to see it if you decide to have cleavage showing. What da hell. It would be like a guy having half his asscrack showing at all times.

Breasts are sexual.

Your arguments are no good for me. I strongly disagree with just about everything you have said in this entire thread.


Yeah with the no nipple argument, then she must believe guys should walk around the office with no tie and their shirt unbuttoned about three or four buttons with their chest hair hanging out and a gold chain clearly visible to all the female population with a legible message engraved on a medallion which says "I don't get enough sex and want more" because that is exactly what cleavage says to a man and the same goes for breast implants. They are like a billboard to solicit sex.
edit on 17-12-2010 by bigrex because: typo



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by Shikamaru
 

in your example of the 2 lawyers and the sexy assistant compared to the well clothed assistant, you fail to see one thing...

if the employer requests that the employee dresses down and covers their cleavage. then it is the right of that company to fire the employee for failing to comply with dress code

obviously in the example you provided, the lawyer encouraged the assistant to dress sexy

so your arguement has no merit

this isn't about all companies having the same standard, its about each company having ther own guideline in regard to work attire

and if a company decides that they want a more professional work envirnoment that requires the employees to cover exposed cleavage, that is their prerogative



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by hotbakedtater "I don't care what someone else thinks of my cleavage..."


Yeah, you DO:


Originally posted by hotbakedtater

"Many of my shirts are V cut, because I enjoy showcasing my best assetts..."
"...it should be MY choice how I want to dress or display my cleavage.

Thoughts?


Display?
I love boobs, show off all you want.
Let's just be honest though...
you're showing off your cleavage, I might look, why else would you be displaying them if you didn't want to be looked at?
I think some women either don't know the difference between office attire and nightclub attire, or they're just not being honest.

I wouldn't come to work wearing spandex pants to show off my endowment, and have 4 buttons undone on my shirt to show off my hard work in the gym...it's tacky at best, and an obvious ploy.

There should not be be laws or rules preventing it...it's up to the individual to make their own decisions and portray themselves as they wish.

But please...let's not BS each other...it is what it is.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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I know women that wear it because they have conditions that prohibit fabric that is too tight or rubs against their skin. I guess they'll never get a job in the city unless it's a stripper bar, right?

Hotbakedtator,

Give it up.

I'm sorry but the posters in here seem to be acting more toolish than I suspected at first glance... you'll never let a woman show cleavage in the workplace. We got it, you run your business that way, you have all the right in the world. Just don't expect it to be civil law across the board.

"Breasts are sexual" and comparing cleavage to showing the top of a man's shaft...

I've never heard of a more ignorant statement. That right there just sealed the deal. I'm done with this arguement. This world is doomed... God forbid the ice age swings around you have to wear loin cloth again... women will be burned at the stake, or ravaged for not wearing enough loincloth in the cave when business is going on.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Shikamaru
I hope to god you people are not here when the free world comes around, because if you're going to get this over-critical about what people wear in a business, instead of what they're capable of, then I'm going to have to jump off a building than live in that big of a living hypocritical environment.


this arguement has nothing to do with my opinion or your opinion.... the only opinion that matters is that of the employer...

you you as the employee do no t agree with this policy, you are free to find other work
if you as the employee do not comply with this policy, as the employer, they are entitled to firing you and replacing you with someone that is willing to comply with their standard



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by harrytuttle
 


wow you need to show more clevage



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:06 PM
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This thread is getting more ridiculous as times goes on!

Okay, so a penis is a sex organ but breasts are not?

Well technically that is correct, however a pair of breasts is a symbol, if not one of the major symbols, of female sexuality.

I'm really finding it hard to understand why some members find the concept of dressing apropriately at work so difficult....?



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by Shikamaru
 


Your arguments have been baseless, you keep making out as if people saying cleavage shouldn't be in the workplace are secretly wanting women to be subjugated when it's really the very opposite. All people are saying is that men are expected to stick to certain standards and women should have to stick to standards as well, depending upon the work environment of course.

It's also funny you picked up on the more ridiculous examples like the shaft one, how about the more even and sensible ones? Like men are not allowed to button down their shirts, take off the tie and have their chest hair hanging out, that is the exact same as women showing cleavage and yet men are not allowed to do this. The reason they are not allowed is because it would not be appropriate.

So why are you saying women should be allowed and men shouldn't? This is a direct example of inequality.



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by XLR8R
reply to post by Mister1k
 


Toe Cleavage?!?!?


Camel toe

Woman's trousers too tight over her pudenda.


there is no such thing as too tight of pants on women, or too high of skirt, or too low cut blouse........its like being too rich or too goodlooking.........but I freely admit to being a dirty old man.......lol



posted on Dec, 17 2010 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Shikamaru

I'm sorry but the posters in here seem to be acting more toolish than I suspected at first glance... you'll never let a woman show cleavage in the workplace. We got it, you run your business that way, you have all the right in the world. Just don't expect it to be civil law across the board.

"Breasts are sexual" and comparing cleavage to showing the top of a man's shaft...


I believe the comparison of showing the shaft of the penis to cleavage is a bit of a stretch

but...

as a man, if I went into a professional workplace wearing a tanktop, wouldn't that be considered unprofessional?

all it does is show my shoulders and is tight around my chest... 2 things I am proud to display when I goto the beach or out to a club

oh, but wait,,,, that would be unprofessional of me, so I don't do it... I wear attire that is approved by my employer and dress the way I enjoy dressing, showing off my goods, on MY time....

its the same as a woman showing cleavage in the workplace

its simply unprofessional




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