Sexist Female Oppression? Cleavage In The Workplace

Lots of guys complaining about the OP using Oppression as a word are also the guys talking about how they are oppressed by women being attractive.

Perhaps they are sad that in the modern workplace that pretty girls have diminished the effectiveness of their ass-kissing?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


IMO, it is nice you love your breasts. However, motivation of the boss is in question and men don't have it easy in the work place because of attitudes such as yours which makes things confusing. Most women want a man to look them in the eye at work. They want their work noticed. They want to be appreciated for assets other than their sexual organs. Yes dear, breast are a sexual organ. How would you like it if men displayed theirs?
So, are you saying these bosses should risk sexual harassment law suits to promote women with the best tatas? I will personally put my foot through any business that promotes a woman because her sexual organs are on display (except Hooter's naturally)! Oh and before you go there boo, I'm a 40 E. Nuff said!

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Women have breasts?

Pics, or it didn't happen!

So do men -- smaller ones, much less attractive ones. Show me a man who doesn't like breasts -- I'll show you a gay man.

Originally posted by AndrewJay
So if women can show off their "best assets" then I should be able to also. So what would happen if I walked into a workplace with skin tight leather pants? I could even put glitter on that "special area" to draw more attention to it. Im sure my boss would just be throwing promotions my way wouldnt she?

Its no secret women use their breasts to get ahead in life. Promotions to free drinks it always seems to work. Now the one time when it doesnt work its discrimination? Please this is a joke.

edit on 17-12-2010 by AndrewJay because: (no reason given)

Applause!!!!!!!
My sentiments exactly!
Hey, get a window for those pants!

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I love my breasts, they are a part of me I refuse to hide them. Many of my shirts are V cut, because I enjoy showcasing my best assetts, and I would hope that my work would be what people judge, not my breasts.

...what your statement REALLY says is that you are too self-absorbed to be a team player, which translates to - you lack the critical thinking skills to be a viable asset to your company...

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I personally am just debating a topic, my personal work situation is not uo for debate.

...you want to show off your cleavage (self-absorbed) - and - you think you're being oppressed if your employer tells you to cover it up (immature) - but - you dont want anyone to discuss your personal work situation, even though you brought it up in the op (double standard)...

...you're not a feminist, kiddo - not even close... if you want to be perceived as an intelligent woman, dont dress like a slut at work - simple...

I brought this thread to the attention of my wife, just to get here thoughts on it...

her responce was "if a woman's best assest in the workplace is her cleavage, then she doesn't really deserve a promotion... promotions should be based on work ethic and job performance, not a physical attribute"

that pretty much sums it up for me as well

try consentrating more on your job performance and less on your physical attributes, cover up if its deemed unprofessional by peers and bosses, do your job to the best of your ability....

then maybe you'll see a promotion

I would much rather be acknowledged for my competence in the work place and not my bodily ASSets. I would maintain a professional appearance, so as to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, breasts were not meant to be a sexual turn on for the opposite sex, but they are. They are rarely used for the biological purpose of nourishing infants.

I can see both sides of the argument here. There is only one case I read about in my local paper where a bank teller was suing the bank because the bank manager kept telling her she dressed inappropriately no matter how she dressed. I found another link to the article here.

Is this woman too hot to be a banker?

I know this is a rare case, but also a telling story on the entire debate. This article is 4 pages long, and I am trying to keep the quotes to a minimum. I do want to post some of the quotes that really tell what is going on on both sides, and how she actually feels about being so good looking. Yes there are pictures of her on the site in hot party dresses, and a business suit.

This is what the whole situation is about, and a small part of what has been happening to her.

She sued Citigroup, claiming that she was fired solely because her bosses thought she was too hot....Her bosses told her they couldn't concentrate on their work because her appearance was too distracting. They ordered her to stop wearing turtlenecks. She was also forbidden to wear pencil skirts, three-inch heels, or fitted business suits. Lorenzana, a 33-year-old single mom, pointed out female colleagues whose clothing was far more revealing than hers: "They said their body shapes were different from mine, and I drew too much attention," she says.......As a result of her tall stature, coupled with her curvaceous figure," her suit says, Lorenzana was told "she should not wear classic high-heeled business shoes, as this purportedly drew attention to her body in a manner that was upsetting to her easily distracted male managers......a woman—sat her down and fired her. The female manager mentioned the problems related to her clothing at the previous branch. She did not mention work performance, Lorenzana says. The manager said she was sorry, but Lorenzana wasn't fit for the culture of Citibank."

This is her lawyers side of things. This also goes along with the argument that I have seen here that women should be allowed to be able to show a little especially for those of us who find it hard to cover up without wearing something so baggy that they practically have to resort to sweat tops. How appropriate is that to wear to a work place?

"It's like saying," Tuckner argues, "that we can't think anymore 'cause our p*****s are standing up—and we cannot think about you except in a sexual manner—and we can't look at you without wanting to have sexual intercourse with you. And it's up to you, gorgeous woman, to lessen your appeal so that we can focus!.......lawyer Jack Tuckner had a professional photographer shoot her in various work outfits in his office near Wall Street. There's nothing wrong with the clothes—they're proper business attire. And there's nothing wrong with Lorenzana, who looks really, really good in them."

Ladies, especially those of you who are jealous of women looking so good, you might want to rethink how you feel. Looking hot sometimes is not all it is cracked up to be.

"My entire life, I've been dealing with this. 'Cause people say, 'Oh, you got a job because you look that way.' So you gotta work four times harder to prove you are capable. To prove you didn't get this because of the way you look. First, I'm a woman, then I'm an immigrant, and I have my accent. At Citibank, when they were picking on me for every little thing, I couldn't take it anymore!...... If being less good-looking," she says, "means being happy and finding love and not being sexually harassed and having a job where no one bothers you and no one questions you because of your looks, then, definitely, I'd want that. I think of that every day."

For some it seems like there will be no equality. Men will have their minds in the gutter, and ladies are prone to be jealous of anyone who looks a lot better than they do. It might not be a problem that can be solved until men and women can start looking at each other as people instead of sex objects or rivals. That really what this boils down to isn't it?

Are women really asking for people staring at their breasts when they only show a little bit of cleavage, or because she can't hide the size of them without wearing extremely baggy clothes, which also are mainly ugly also? Or is it the men minds are so far into thinking about sex all the time that they can't control their thoughts and actions? Or are we just so bombarded by sex through TV, advertisements, and movies that it conditioned us to think of sex every time we turn around, or see an attractive person?

When is the last time you sat down with an attractive person, and not thought about them in a sexually in one form or another, or want to make a suggestion to them? I'm saying person instead of opposite gender since I'm trying to include everyone, since everyone seems to have this problem. On the reverse side, not think of them as a rival? When is the last time you saw a situation that could go either way, and you actually automatically assumed something is going on between those two when in reality it is all innocent? When is the last time you were walking somewhere, saw an attractive person, and your mind starts to play the I wish or what if's with that person. Whether it would be I wish I looked like them, or what if I go and say hi would they date me? Yes, even with your spouse walking beside you.

Because it is so sexually oriented that we should assume those who look good have more to offer society, and those who don't look good have less to offer?

Maybe society is just naturally sexually deviant and the Muslims have it right that we should literally hide our bodies so thoughts supposedly don't get in our minds. If we are naturally deviant, then we would start to think about what the other person would look like underneath those clothes. That really doesn't help us at all. Maybe society has just been bombarded so much with sex and sexual situation that we can't help but to think that way.

Even if either is correct, where is our self control? Not only controlling our bodies, but our minds as well? Apparently many have that lack of self control. Just as the lawyer asked above, should that mean that those in society need to dress down their looks just so it won't bring indecent thoughts to others? Isn't that impossible with some people because they either look like a super model, or their minds are way too far gone in the gutter? Should people be judged on their appearance or their work in the workplace?

Should super hot people be forced to try their best to look ugly in the common workplace, just because not everyone can look like them? On the other spectrum, all these people who hire and fire based on how people look and what they wear, should they be forced to hire people who are uglier than the norm and have great qualifications? Are these people less likely to get promotions, because the boss has them hid because they can't stand seeing them? Wouldn't their ugliness distract people they work with also just as a super hot person would?

Unfortunately there is much more biased toward women than men in this aspect. Think about it, where is the last place you really seen an ugly woman working? I'm not talking about them just being fat. Fat people can be very pretty in the face. There was only one place I can think of and that is at my local right aid as a pharmacist. I know there are more out there, but I never seem to see them, except when they are trying to hide in line at a check out. Yet I see a lot of ugly men, and I'm not just talking about pot bellies, bear guts, or the extra spare tire. Men construction workers, plumbers, and truckers can get away with murder letting their but cracks show. Sometimes I think their pants are ready to fall off of them. I would think they have more to worry about than a woman showing a little cleavage.

Yet the cleavage issue whether on the woman or man (but crack) is only the tip of the iceberg. Really isn't it more about how we perceive our selves and others through a sexual lens? How we don't seem to be able to put down that lens to see what is really there, and know who people really are?

The world is as it is, and the only difference we can make is how we think about, treat, and respond to others. Here is something to think about next time you see that gorgeous business associate day dream about or the ugly co-worker you think you can't stand to be around because of their looks, would you want other people to judge you the exact same way you are judging them? Or do you think you should start looking at those people differently?

Originally posted by kalisdad
her responce was "if a woman's best assest in the workplace is her cleavage, then she doesn't really deserve a promotion... promotions should be based on work ethic and job performance, not a physical attribute"

amen to that.

here's the odd thing. women don't want to be objectified, they want to be taken seriously and then they say that their cleavage is their best asset and they will flaunt it.

think about that for a second. They are showing off their best asset and then, when we stare, they get annoyed.

is it any wonder men are clueless when it comes to women?

I'm all for a bit of a skin show. If it's not trashy or sleazy, it's fine, even in the work place but, still, if you want to be taken seriously at work, you want to get promoted, you want to move up the proverbial ladder? do good work. the last two times I had to hire someone, I noticed that some of the applicants dressed with the intention of catching my eye. I ruled those women out pretty quickly. I run an accounting office and I don't care if you are tall, short, fat, skinny, big breasted or flat. I want a worker, not an image to stare at.

you shouldn't be penalized for how your body developed. As long as you get your job done......

who doesn't love cleavage? I say promote them all!!

Originally posted by Aeons

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
You should feel lucky- the place I work at are mostly middle aged to older women, and I know at least two women who left becuase they couldn't take their catty nature. You'd have some oppression here, all right, but it wouldn't be from the men. How does THAT figure into your political views?

Again - there are catty men too. They just don't get called on it.

We're not talking about catty men, We're talking about how this person is being as phony as a three dollar bill. She is simply pushing her agenda to stroke her ego and image of self worth as related to her hooter size and she's hiding it behind women's liberation. I grew up on a farm where the women carried the hay, cut the wood, managed the fields, etc right alongside the men so I've been raised appreciating the equality of the sexes as a man can get. THIS person isn't saying anythign about how women should be treated equally, how she can do her job as well as a man, or any of that. This person wants to behave like a sex object in an inappropriate location ans she's complaining when she received all the baggage from being a sex object.

When Martin Luther King Jr made his march in Montgomery, he knew full well the racist good ol' boy in the south were going to sic the dogs on them, hit them with billy clubs and shoot them with the water hoses. When he marched, his message wasn't "these bad people are beating us with billy clubs." His message was, "we are marching for our equal rights as human beings regardless of the obstacles". The prize he was after was worth the price he had to pay. THIS chick OTOH is complaining that she has to pay the price to satisfy her own personal fulfilment, so I say if she wants to show off her hooters, she should go get a part time job at a strip joint, but don't bring her personal issues into the office. Her rights end at the point where the rights of other people begin.

Originally posted by Aeons
Exactly. I don't draw attention to myself NOTICING the nice looking guy who is waving his cute hiney in my face. Nor am I angry with him for being attractive. Therefore, I know it is possible.

How restrained of you.
- Yet you couldn't help but notice this guy's cute bum.

Please tell us more.
How many square inches of cute bum were uncovered?
How many inches of butt cleavage were exposed?

Do you believe men should be allowed to wear tight scoop-backed pants to work to show off their cute ass-ets properly?

And lastly, how does your argument that bodies can still be titillating when suitably covered support your argument that well-endowed people should be able to work with the most titillating parts of their bodies uncovered?

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by GoalPoster

 

And it is the females choice to show cleavage, as it is the males choice to show ill restraint when confronted with said cleavage.

Just becasue the business appears male dominated does not mean us women need to take this kind of oppression.

It is their choice to show their cleavage. A woman decides in the morning "ya know what .. I am going to put my breasts on show today." I wonder why she made that decision?

If a woman chooses to put her breasts on display in a provocative manner then why should the onus be on the man to show restraint? She didn't.

You women do not need to take such repression ... you can dress sensibly. A woman knows exactly what a man will do when she shows off her "assets" as you put it. Therefore surely a woman shows off her "assets" because she longs for said attention?

I am all for freedom and am glad that we have the freedom to wear what we desire but seriously, women know how men react to boobs and thus I conclude they dress as such because they might just like that attention ...

*Awaits barrage of offensive posts*

I don't get women sometimes. Women will yell sexual harassment in a second, but are advocating to have their cleavage being shown, because it's "female oppression". Plus, this isn't oppression at the workplace, because this is your choice to show your cleavage. This is a study of women who are more likely to get raises. I'm pretty sure if a guy shows up to work with his shirt un-tucked everyday, that he won't get a raise, as well. I don't mind when women show their cleavage(I mean, I'm a guy), but they don't come off professional, in the same way that a man coming in with an un-tucked shirt doesn't look professional either.

I really don't see what the big deal is, about cleavage in the office. Not like there isn't tons, and tons, and tons of that stuff on the internet anyway. Any man that can't control himself for a few hours, in the office, over a pair of breasts shouldn't be allowed to work in that office. It's wrong to tell somebody they have to dress a certain way, especially if it's uncomfortable for them, just so the place can look more 'professional'.

Originally posted by FuturePeace
you shouldn't be penalized for how your body developed. As long as you get your job done......

this isn't about body development, its about common sense...

OP says that she should be able to dress however she wants, flaunting her best asset(her cleavage), and still be considered for any promotion that is available

obviously if her best asset is her breasts, than she needs to focus on her job performance a bit and strive to make THAT her best asset

most jobs are not about physical appearance. unless the job REQUIRES you to look good(there are quite a few jobs that do have that requirement aside from stripping and Hooters) you should be more focused on the duties and job performance, and less on how much cleavage you can show off today.

and as a male, I am quite aware that women use sexuality on a regular basis to get things in life... enough women have commented in agreement on this same thing throughout this thread

I feel that if a woman is relying on this to get ahead in the workplace(or even outside of it) then they obviously have doubts about their ability to accomplish things without the need to impress with their physical appearance

on a side note, this problem goes both ways...

I have been a server for the food industry off and on throught the years

I have seen less able women being given the higher tipping shifts based entirely on the fact that they look good as opposed to them actually providing better service than I can/do...

how does this not show that appearance is sometimes better suited to the management of a buisiness than overall job performance? how is this not discrimination and oppression of me because of physical appearance?

the road goes both ways.... if you want to dress all sexy and get away with it, find a job that encourages this kind of thing and promotes based on appearance and not overall job performance

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Wow see this is the problem with some modern feminists, . . .

Congrats; you managed to include the word some, - this time.

I'm a feminist and I really hate the clothing oppression at work.

In the average office, men have to wear suits, ties, socks and heavy shoes, and cannot bare their shoulders on even the hottest days.
Seriously, I've often thought how boring it would be to have to adhere to the male dress code at work, and how uncomfortable it must be in hot weather.

IMO women who complain about having to cover their cleavage at work are inconsiderate of the men, stupid when it comes to their careers, and pushing things unfairly when it comes to rights.

Originally posted by Aeons
I find it interesting that so many people on this thread aren't aware that the fascination with breasts isn't "ingrained" into humans. It is cultural.

Even in European culture several hundreds of years ago, a woman's breast could fall out of something and it wouldn't really be a deal, but the "turn of an ankle" was the height of sexy.

This isn't some automatic button pushed in your heads you can't help - this is a cultural construct that allows you to indulge in fetishism in a culturally acceptable manner.

According to some scientists - - - human women have full breasts because humans stand erect. That they simulate the butt. No other mammal has full breasts or stands erect.

My hubby endearingly teases me about my "monkey butts" - - I would not suggest any one else do that

--------------------------

As cultural/social anthropology is a hobby of mine - - - I am well aware diversities in sexual "turn ons".

But breasts are designed to be a sexual organ - - whether it be in fashion or not.

Sorry for the long post but here I go:

I love women and I am a fairly handsome guy, so with that in mind we conducted a little experiment years ago, I found women who were showing a lot of their breasts and talked to them ( I am fairly good at picking girls), and stared at their cleavage smile and kept doing it shamelessly, then a friend would come by ( a not very good looking goofy weird looking guy), and join in the conversation and do exactly the same. Women would get pissed and feeling unconfortable, and in some cases complain about "my friend" or simply, invent an excuse and leave (after leaving me their phone number LOL). Anyways we did it as an experiment and we concluded that women show their breasts to attract men, and they love being watched IF THEY WANT TO or they are attracted to the guy.

My son who is 19 is incredibly handsome, but he is quite shy, you would be amazed at the crazy things women do, to get noticed by him, I just see it and I laugh, My son will have to find a job that shields him of this or he will end up in trouble. The point is that being attractive or SHOWING things that make you attractive WILL draw attention, and most of the time its not good in a work environment.

Sorry that is the way the world works, but to the OP if you were a man you would understand it perfectly how distracting a attractive woman with flashy outfits can be in the work place.
In the mean time show all you can (some of my workers really show a lot, but I dont care because in Sales is actually a very good weapon to close a sale, they attend the male clients, I attend the female clients, all works out beautifully!!