The Axe and A Match

How many threads do we read about criminals and what we should do with them?

Here is my thought.

Buy some islands.

You are sentenced to life... well here you go, this is your home now. We will give you a axe and a match. Don't forget, You have neighbors. You can all kill each other, which is apparent of what you like to do, or you can survive.
You will tax us no more. That was your choice, this is our answer.

You say this is cruel and unusual punishment? We say your crime was cruel and unjustified. You made that choice, now live with it. Water seeks it's own level, we are here to accommodate.

Thank you for freeing up our expenditures. We have taken the bars down off your cells and giving a homeless family a place of warmth. You'll be happy to know, they are even utilizing the library access and computers and job training to better themselves. The Health benefits have done wonders as well. Thank you.

The amount of money was have saved on just guards alone has been astronomical. It is just a drop in the bucket now to circle your island in our patrol boats to make sure you don't get off.

And the effort it took to make sure you were all cozy, feed, and warm??? Well, you'd be amazed how far that expense has gone to something actually product full. It is quite amazing the talent we are finding with just a little appreciation to what you left behind. (They used to be known as what you thought were your rights.) We decided when you picked up the gun and the jury said you were wrong, you gave up that right.

We really must thank you for showing us how to turn a negative into a positive. As you know, while you were out raping and pillaging, we have been trying to think of ways to better the world...

Lucky for you, with all we save now, we Can afford the Axe and the Match... after all, we are humane you know.

Well, if I knew that would be my plight, I would certainly think twice. How about you?

If you give them an axe, they could build a boat and come back looking for vengeance! We all know how crafty they can be. That is assuming they didn't kill each other first. Then we'd have axe wielding ex-cons on the loose.

reply to post by onehuman


I couldn't agree more.

Have you ever read Heinlein's novella "Coventry"? The basic premise is that if you violate society's laws, you have rejected that society, and have exempted yourself from that society's protection.

You are exiled to a place called Coventry, where murderers rub elbows with pick-pockets and embezzlers.

One where the inmates literally run the asylum and make their own societies, sometimes quite horrific ones.

Originally posted by CastleMadeOfSand
If you give them an axe, they could build a boat and come back looking for vengeance! We all know how crafty they can be. That is assuming they didn't kill each other first. Then we'd have axe wielding ex-cons on the loose.

That's why the OP said what he did about patrol boats, by the way OP, starred and flagged.

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger

Originally posted by CastleMadeOfSand
If you give them an axe, they could build a boat and come back looking for vengeance! We all know how crafty they can be. That is assuming they didn't kill each other first. Then we'd have axe wielding ex-cons on the loose.

That's why the OP said what he did about patrol boats, by the way OP, starred and flagged.

Must have skipped that part! Are they gonna patrol during hurricanes? Seems that would be a good time to plan an escape. They have nothing to lose, they will die either way.

I would not wanna find myself deserted on that island.

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger
reply to post by onehuman

 

I couldn't agree more.

Have you ever read Heinlein's novella "Coventry"? The basic premise is that if you violate society's laws, you have rejected that society, and have exempted yourself from that society's protection.

You are exiled to a place called Coventry, where murderers rub elbows with pick-pockets and embezzlers.

One where the inmates literally run the asylum and make their own societies, sometimes quite horrific ones.

Thank you for your concurrence to begin with. I felt like I was treading some rough water here... I am not aware of the book you have mentioned, though I know on many occasions I have wished to write something similar. I can assure you I will seek it out, and thank you for the point of direction.

Yep, only bad thing would be if some one is wrongfully accused and sent there.
Then they find they are innocent, but by that time somebody will have made a trophy out of their skull.
Then as time goes by, not a long time one could guess until the media jumps on it.
The Running Man?

A couple of years ago, I probably would have agreed with this. However, after coming to realise how corrupt the legal system is, along with the fact that the biggest criminals are often those in the greatest positions of power, I now couldn't disagree more. Only when our leaders are "good", morally sound people, whose sole agenda is not self-preservation- and is infact the preservation of a society worthy of its existance, should anyone be allowed the ability to condemn any man to such a fate.

I realise there are some evil people out there. I don't think it's fair that hard working people have to pay £26,000 (the last figure I heard) p/a, for such twisted souls to be locked up in a place, which is better than some of these individuals deserve. Only when we can be sure that those who have the ability to both set and enforce the legislation are just, then anything like you suggest can be put in force. That will probably never happen.

Just look at the MP's expenses scandal recently as an example. I had a friend whose dad went to prison for benefit fraud- 5 years he got for stealing around £10,000 over a couple of years. Okay, it's wrong, I will most certainly not deny that, but, compare that to the millions combined that MP's stole..it's nothing, and how many of them will go to prison..? The world currently is too easily manipulated by those with money and power.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
Yep, only bad thing would be if some one is wrongfully accused and sent there.
Then they find they are innocent, but by that time somebody will have made a trophy out of their skull.
Then as time goes by, not a long time one could guess until the media jumps on it.
The Running Man?

No different than now. Imagine being wrongfully accused of rape or child molestation and thrown into jail to await trial. I think the island would be preferable to tiny institution where you are kept defenseless.

As for the patrols, escape is inevitable no matter what the situation. Criminals occasionally escape from prison now. At least on an island we would have a major layer of insulation before they reached the public again.
************************************************************************
Here is the only problem I see. I don't believe that drug offenses, petty theft, statuatory anything, tax evasion, and many other things are actually "criminal." We would have to reserve the island for "real" criminals with "real" victims. Violence would be a clear indication. A dead body, missing body with forensics, or a live victim to testify against them in court should be the line in my opinion. Here in the US we over use our prison system dramatically, and it is sad and expensive.

Originally posted by CastleMadeOfSand

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger

Originally posted by CastleMadeOfSand
If you give them an axe, they could build a boat and come back looking for vengeance! We all know how crafty they can be. That is assuming they didn't kill each other first. Then we'd have axe wielding ex-cons on the loose.

That's why the OP said what he did about patrol boats, by the way OP, starred and flagged.

Must have skipped that part! Are they gonna patrol during hurricanes? Seems that would be a good time to plan an escape. They have nothing to lose, they will die either way.

edit on 12/16/2010 by CastleMadeOfSand because: (no reason given)

If the patrol boats had to withdraw, then nothing the convicts could build would make it more than a few yards off shore, so problem solved either way.

I've been through eight hurricanes; I'd not be desperate enough try my luck with a raft or dugout in one!

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
Yep, only bad thing would be if some one is wrongfully accused and sent there.
Then they find they are innocent, but by that time somebody will have made a trophy out of their skull.
Then as time goes by, not a long time one could guess until the media jumps on it.
The Running Man?

Yes I suppose there would be that wrinkle.

So now the mind would have to wonder... would the innocent
find their own little corner of the island? Would it become a freak type of safe haven in the midst of despair? Would mans own instinct for survival evolve towards a light of innocence?

Aww the media... I guess that would be drama and blood filled enough for them to actually comment on as long as the moths dont flock to the innocent light yes?

reply to post by getreadyalready


Well I think the big difference is the axe situation.
The inmates in prison dont get given an axe to hack each other.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
Yep, only bad thing would be if some one is wrongfully accused and sent there.
Then they find they are innocent, but by that time somebody will have made a trophy out of their skull.
Then as time goes by, not a long time one could guess until the media jumps on it.
The Running Man?

Here is the only problem I see. I don't believe that drug offenses, petty theft, statuatory anything, tax evasion, and many other things are actually "criminal." We would have to reserve the island for "real" criminals with "real" victims. Violence would be a clear indication. A dead body, missing body with forensics, or a live victim to testify against them in court should be the line in my opinion. Here in the US we over use our prison system dramatically, and it is sad and expensive.

Agreed.

Leg bracelets are economical compared to keeping someone in prison, are easily monitored and effective at enforcing "house arrest". These could be reserved for non-violent crimes. But a third strike would get them sent to coventry. Perhaps as reinforcing mechanism, they might be required to watch close circuit video of what goes on inside coventry.

But murderers, rapists, child molesters, and anyone using a gun, and those using a weapon of any sort in the commission of a crime where a victim was injured, those would be the ones automatically sent to the island as soon as found guilty.

I'd also suggest some mandatory appeals process lasting no longer than a month, while the convicted are held in a transition prison before being shipped out.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
Yep, only bad thing would be if some one is wrongfully accused and sent there.
Then they find they are innocent, but by that time somebody will have made a trophy out of their skull.
Then as time goes by, not a long time one could guess until the media jumps on it.
The Running Man?

No different than now. Imagine being wrongfully accused of rape or child molestation and thrown into jail to await trial. I think the island would be preferable to tiny institution where you are kept defenseless.

As for the patrols, escape is inevitable no matter what the situation. Criminals occasionally escape from prison now. At least on an island we would have a major layer of insulation before they reached the public again.
************************************************************************
Here is the only problem I see. I don't believe that drug offenses, petty theft, statuatory anything, tax evasion, and many other things are actually "criminal." We would have to reserve the island for "real" criminals with "real" victims. Violence would be a clear indication. A dead body, missing body with forensics, or a live victim to testify against them in court should be the line in my opinion. Here in the US we over use our prison system dramatically, and it is sad and expensive.

I don't see why you couldn't have a holding island. If they are all really innocent, it shouldn't be a problem, It might almost be paradise.

The nasty islands for the very bad and ugly, proven beyond a doubt guilty, would or should be way beyond the shores of their decisions. There are some rough placed islands in this world in the middle of nowhere. Even if they did manage to escape, would they perhaps be better men when they reached home? If they actually made it that far?

I mean face it, how many made it off Alcatraz? That was a spit from shore really.

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Well I think the big difference is the axe situation.
The inmates in prison dont get given an axe to hack each other.

They'd need the axe and the matches for shelter and fire; we'd not spend more money on building barracks or such. They'd have to find their own food as well.

As for hacking at each other? Oh well, guess that guy shouldn't have raped and killed that 7 year old girl, or that 90 year lady, or shot that disabled vet over five dollars.

These would be the worst of the worst, the predators - let them sort it out themselves. It'd be like Roach Motel: the freaks go in, but they don't come out

Originally posted by Dr Cosma
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Well I think the big difference is the axe situation.
The inmates in prison dont get given an axe to hack each other.

Not in prison they dont, but now it is a matter of survival.... how do they utilize that axe now? Free rein for a New Choice? Or is it live by the axe die by the axe?

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


Yes, that is all very well good justice, sending rapists and that sort of scum over there, also the terrorists, no?
But to the Government in future years to come anyone who opposes them will be a terrorist. In some places you cannot even protest. So, could you see yourself in that island running around with an axe?

reply to post by onehuman


So what your talking about is a modern day old Austrailia?

Also, would the axes be cheap or expensive ones?
If were talking about cutting the taxes spent, then I suppose you would opt for cheaper ones.
Like I said, could you see yourself running around that island with an axe?
Imagine if it broke.

reply to post by Dr Cosma

also the terrorists, no?
But to the Government in future years to come anyone who opposes them will be a terrorist. In some places you cannot even protest.

I think you answered your own question there. "Hopefully" the term "terrorist" goes away soon. Enemy combatants are not terrorists. Criminals are not terrorists. Protestors and opposition of the current regime are not terrorists......so what the hell is a terrorist?

I believe people caught or killed in an action by the military, or during a military struggle should be treated as enemy soldiers, regardless of whether they have a uniform or not. I believe people caught or killed by law enforcement or in a civilian setting should be treated as criminals, regardless of their religious affiliation or nationality. "Terrorist" needs to leave our vocabulary as soon as possible.