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Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

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posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 01:20 PM
Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

A moral sense is developed with the knowledge of good and evil.

Ask any man if he is a better man with a moral sense or not.
He will answer that it is better for man to have a moral sense.
In other words, if given that same commandment by God today, man would be all that he can be by NOT obeying a command that basically keeps man as bright as a cow without a moral sense. To not reach out for the knowledge of good and evil would be wrong and disastrous for man. Eve did the right thing.

The churches, religions and God work quite hard to help us all develop a higher moral sense and to say that for Adam and Eve to NOT reach out for this trait that makes man good is idiocy.

Eve, as the older Hebrew and Jewish traditions believed, did not cause our fall but caused our elevation to a higher state even acknowledged by God. Gen 3 22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

A & E were following good advise in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because without this knowledge, almost all issues remain outside the realm of discussions as most issues have aspects of good and evil.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you wish to follow this quotation and emulate God as you are supposed to, then you have to follow Eve and develop your moral sense.

It was not a fall. It was an elevation.

The Gnostics, Jews and Hebrew were right and Constantine’s Church was wrong.

Below are just some things for non theists to think about.

If you happen to be a literalist or fundamental and have your belief based on faith, fantasy and magic, you may not want to bother watching or reading the above as you may have lost the ability to use reason and logic and will not understand them. This happens quite often to those with faith not based on facts.

““Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore;” M L.

That is why Martin Luther hated logic and reason so much. He knew that they were the enemy of faith as they proved and showed faith without facts to be for fools.

Would you follow Eve or give up your moral sense?


posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 01:29 PM
reply to post by Greatest I am

Theist. Would you give up your moral sense?

Let me rephrase that for you. "Human. Would you give up your moral sense?"

I only hope at some point people would stop using labels, and start respecting each other.

edit on 15-12-2010 by Seed76 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-12-2010 by Seed76 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 05:40 PM
I don't think that morals have anything to do with religious belief.
It is those that state they have morals BECAUSE of their religious belief that I fear the most.
How is it moral to do the right thing when you are vying for divine favor, or hopefully escaping the wrath of god? How can that even be considered moral? How is that anything but self serving? How can it be declared "moral" that you don't steal, when the only reason you don't is fear of god? How is it a "good deed" in donating food to the poor when you think that it's what god wants you to do, or expects you to do? I've heard many christians state that if there were no god, they would live their lives much differently - indulging in the things the religion prohibits.
Now whether or not they were truthful, or were being over-dramatic in trying to make their point is open to speculation. If they WERE being truthful I hope that nothing ever happens to them where they would doubt the existence of god.
To me, morals are the product of culminative natural selection - a group that gets along and helps each other out is the one most likely to survive.
They cannot be a product of belief in yaweh, to say that is to deny that anyone outside of that realm has any moral sense.
For example - I am an atheist.
I don't lie to my customers at work. I don't believe it's good business practice, AND it's a selfish act. I'd lose sleep.
I don't cheat on my wife because I love her. She would absolutely make me wish I were dead though, and her father would finish the job, but mainly because I love & respect her. We've got history.
I don't steal - I don't covet - I don't even drink or smoke. No drugs. No porn. No bars, no partying.
How is that possible without god? Either it IS possible without belief in any god, or my soul was hijacked by a divine spirit who puppets me around doing his bidding.
We do good things when no one is looking because it's the right thing to do. Not because we believe anyone is keeping track of our good deeds vs. bad ones. Very often, my above comments get misconstrued by readers who feel that I am somehow elevating myself above everyone else, and that I am under the assumption that my standards of living are somehow exclusive to me. This is not the case. I am not special....maybe in a "short bus" type of way I more thing...
It wasn't until I rejected everything supernatural that I can say that my moral sense fully took hold. When I was a churchgoer, it was easy to subconsciously blame everything on god for not giving me the strength, for not answering this prayer or that, that it just wasn't his will for this to take place, or - especially to ease a guilty mind by praying for forgiveness.

posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 12:59 AM
reply to post by Greatest I am
Your question does seem a bit ambiguous. Kudos on the links

I think I may be becoming a peculiar type of theistic athiest:

Imagine: There is no distinct being that anyone can point to and say, "There is the Creator." Because He (I use the male pronoun so as not to be stuck with awkward he/she him/herself pronoun constructs) poured Himself out; became not so that we could be, along with all that is.

I like The Genesis Factor you linked to. While the man was deeply unconscious(morally unaware) the Spirit of awareness is awakened:

The Gnostic Christians who authored the Nag Hammadi scriptures did not read Genesis as history with a moral, but as a myth with a meaning. To them, Adam and Eve were not actual historical figures, but representatives of two intrapsychic principles within every human being. Adam was the dramatic embodiment of psyche, or soul, while Eve stood for the pneuma, or spirit. Soul, to the Gnostics, meant the embodiment of the emotional and thinking functions of the personality, while spirit represented the human capacity for spiritual consciousness. The former was the lesser self (the ego of depth psychology), the latter the transcendental function, or the "higher self," as it is sometimes known. Obviously, Eve, then, is by nature superior to Adam, rather than his inferior as implied by orthodoxy.

Where I vary most with the gnostics is I don't subscribe to the notion that material is bad and spirit is good. All that is, visible and invisible ultimately comes from Him who emptied Himself. The now morally aware people are responsible for what they make of themselves and their environment and their social institutions.

Rather than say, "an evil god made us and is the creator of evil matter", I would say, "there is a defrauding being who claims to be the creator, and demands our subservience". We are responsible for raising and teaching our children in how to live in this world-home of ours, not some "creator". And yet Theism to me means that the One who was, and now is not, and yet is the basis of our being can still commune with us.

Theistic Atheism, very heterodox I'm afraid. And no, I wouldn't give up Eve(though I have a different name for her) for anything.
edit on 16-12-2010 by pthena because: (no reason given)

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