A Galaxies Cluster Older Than Possible! Scientists say.

Whats falling apart is red shift theory. However science is still more like a priestcraft than the supposed altruistic pursuit of knowledge. As far as I'm concerned Halton Arp falsified red shift theory many years ago by showing that two physically close and obviously related objects (a quasar and galaxy), had vastly different red shifts.
www.electric-cosmos.org...

You have to ask yourself why won't astrophysicists and astronomers accept the evidence right in front of them? Why do they have to postulate dark matter and all this other nonsense to maintain an obviously failed theory?

Besides the usual issue of how much of their career and publication records are invested in the current paradigm, I believe it's quite possible that they are facing a possibly much younger date for the creation of the universe. It may be that the Biblical account of creation has more credence than the so called geniuses thought. (I am not a young earth creationist by the way.)

In this case they measuring 'age' by redshift and not surprisingly it's not consistent with their pet theories.

Just as there are problems in determining the age of the universe (way under estimated by the present thinking), there is a problem with determining distances and motion. I agree the red shift is an indicator to provide velocity and distance, but in my opinion science is not grasping the reason for the red shift inaccuracies.

Why has not someone come up with an explanation as to why? Could it not be that the galaxies observed are actually in two different layers of space each having a motion away from each other? Because the red shift is measured from earth, the distant objects may each be receding from earth, but in actual fact one is approaching earth and the other is going away, but they both appear with a red shift due to the motions of our own universe level.

I do not understand all of the complexities of the multiple motions we are subject to in space, but how in the world does science account for earth's location and motion, the solar system's rotation and motion about its center, and our own galactic motion when trying to weed out what is a genuine red shift and what is produced by the various astronomic motions we are part of?

Furthermore, suppose space is actually made up of one disk with different orbital directions embedded within the main disk? Picture space like a record that rotates around a spindle but some bands run clockwise and some run counter clockwise with even a few tracks not moving at all. This would really throw red shift measurements off since science assumes there is no such interference of these kinds of motions acting on what they perceive to be genuine blue and red shifts.

reply to post by byteshertz


I see where you are coming from, but, if I'm not mistaken, the oldest dinosaur bones are over 200 million years old. That's just what we have found. Imagine what we haven't. Maybe the big bang theory is correct, but only for our universe/reality. I believe that if we do not ask "why" that we will stand stagnant and not evolve.

reply to post by Arken


If are correct

That is called speculation, and they will never in their life time prove it to be of any particular age, as no one anywhere has a rock with a date stamp to measure anything else by.

reply to post by Aronolac


i will try to explain the problems thats the red shift creates (theory follows)
with the voyager space craft we have transversed a distint boundry where the solar winds drop to sub sonic speeds
the problem comes when we expect light to transverse this boundry and not change forms
it gets complicated but simplified it goes like this.
we only measure light in our local environment and because all our measurements are done in the medium we are in we use those measurements to calculate light speed and wave lenght in our terms.
when you look into light refraction you end up looking at lens shapes and their effects on optical refraction
if a medium being transversed is "denser" it has a lensing effect on the light that travels through it.
so when you model the transition of the helio shock boundry, you get an optical effect where the light has to comply with the laws of conservation of energy and optics.
what happens when light transitions from the medium of the helio sphere to the medium in our galaxy, it has to comply with the laws of conservation so light is forced to change wavelength and amplitude to continue at the speed it was traveling in the heliosphere, because the medium has changed because of the refactive index change and the medium density change.
so if light exiting our "heliospherical lens" changes from (example) red to infra red, then is lensed by a gravitational lens you are looking for infra red instead instead of red.

this may mean that the apparent "shift" has more to do with the heliospherical lensing effect than direction of travel
and the galaxy has its own medium density change and defined boundry so it too can effect the wave length amplitude of light we are witnessing.

what this means is the idea of using wave lenght to "measure" direction and speed of travel may be incorrect.

if two galaxies are located side by side and are equal distences from our observable position
and one shows red shift and one shows blue shift we asume they are moving in oposite directions from our position,
but this shift may just be due to the medium density change and the refraction of light.

xploder

reply to post by Tlove250


What I was attempting to say is what if our methods are right - but our understanding is wrong. And I know this is out there but to give an example - maybe time itself is not quite so linear as we think, what if in reality the speed of time fluctuates or changes speed. We might not notice because the speed we percieve would be relative to everything around us - which would match our speed and change with us, but to someone or something observing us for example a creator - they would percieve these changes of the speed of time, but it would not effect their perception of their time... if that makes sense.

Very interesting indeed....

Interesting stuff.

Originally posted by Thill

Originally posted by letmeDANz
Absolutely humbling.
And beautiful.

I firmly believe one human life span is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too small for us to know even a small bit about the 'universe' we live in.

Thank you for sharing

Among other things that is why I believe that one human lifespan is not all we get

Just to make it clear that is my opinion and please do not flame me based on your (generally speaking) belief

I believe this to so don't worry you are not alone =)
and i do believe we will one day be able to know the vastness of the universe but just not in our human brains
because we can not comprehend that
its like trying to fit the ocean into a gallon of milk

reply to post by lateralus11235


Soon enough science will discover what the old sciences, and the sages of old used to teach, that the universe, and in fact all multiverses expand and contract in cycles, just like everything else you see in life. As it is above, so it is below.

The multiverses have no age, they have always existed as our spirits have always existed as well. Everything goes through cycles, what it is seen as the beginning of the universe was nothing more than a new cycle. Other universes were expanding as ours began anew another cycle.

This will continue happening for eternity because nothing can be destroyed or created, everything transforms from one form to another.

What so many religions see as a God/Goddess/Gods is/are part of every one of us, and everything that exits. So many people have become blind to the old teachings, even today the Judeo-Christian religions say that God is in everything, omnipotent, and omnipresent. There is only one way this could happen, if a spark that so many call God is within every one of us, and in everything. If God always existed and there is a spark of God within us all then our spirits have always existed.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947, it was considered the greatest archeological discovery ever found. It revealed never before known information about the Jewish sects at the beginning of the transformation of a small sect of Jews that later developed into Christianity. Two years earlier, in 1945, early Christian Gnostic writings were discovered which also provided important details about the early sects of Christianity. Together, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic discoveries yielded more information in particular concerning Jewish and early Christian mystic belief and practice of divine union (i.e., attaining a perfect human-divine unity). In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Jewish mystical tradition of divine union went back to the first, perhaps even the third, century B.C.E. Jewish mysticism has its origins in Greek mysticism, a system of belief which included reincarnation. Among the Dead Sea Scrolls, some of the hymns found are similar to the Hekhaloth hymns of the Jewish mystics. One text of hymns gives us clear evidence of Jewish mysticism. The text is called "Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice." Fragments of 1 Enoch, which is considered the oldest text of Jewish mysticism, were also found with the Scrolls. Since evidence shows Jewish mysticism existed in the third century B.C.E., as Enoch indicates, then it would certainly have existed in first-century Israel. As stated earlier, the ideas of divine union and reincarnation can both be found in early Christianity. One may easily conclude it was the key to the very heart of Jesus message.

One particular Dead Sea Scroll entitled "I IQ Melchizedek Text" which contains a sermon called "The Last Jubilee", mentions reincarnation. This scroll is about the "last days" during which time it says, a "Melchizedek redivivus" (revived, reincarnate) will appear and destroy Belial (Satan) and lead the children of God to eternal forgiveness. Below are parts of this message from this scroll, parts of which are unreadable. The unreadable parts will be denoted by this (...) symbol. Here is it's message:
...

www.near-death.com...

Reincarnation was a known fact for many ages including by the early jewish tribes that converted to Christianity.

We are always at one with what so many call God/Goddess/Gods , but since we lose memory of previous reincarnations to re-learn and re-experience life most people cannot remember this, although a few do remember at least some past lives.

What are prodigy children but the spirits of people who remember what they loved, such as music, in a past life?

Some prodigy children even remember their last life in another body.

To find once again what so many call God/Goddess/Gods all you have to do is look within yourself. That spark of God is within you, and through it you will all you need.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Brilliant post and worth a star. I truly hope eternity is not an endless cycle of rebirths. It might however be better than the endless chasm of eternity you would feel if you never forgot and lived an immortal existence.

thought it was obvious, how can anyone say how old we and other galexys are?

From a Doctor Who novel i finished last night:



The Doctor took back the mug and stood it on the tables
beside one of the laptops. ‘Ever heard of o-regions?’
Nesbitt shook his head. ‘You?’ he asked Lansing and Phillipps. Neither
of them had.
‘Pity.’ The Doctor dipped his finger tentatively into the mug, snatching
it away almost immediately. ‘An o-region is a part of space that
is so far out, so isolated from everywhere else that its light hasn’t yet
reached the rest of the universe. They’re big,’ he went on. ‘And being
isolated, they are in effect mini-universes in their own right. If you
can conceive of a mini-universe.’
...‘There is an infinite number of o-regions, each developing
Iike a mini-universe in its own way. And since you could, in theory –
though I wouldn’t recommend that you try – work out every possible
collision point and potential change in our own universe to date, that
means that there’s only a finite number of possible histories. Huge,
but finite.’
‘And what does that mean?’ Nesbitt said.
‘It means that every possible version of history that you can imagine
will occur.’ The Doctor grinned. ‘In fact, given the rather strange way
that maths with infinity works, it means that every possible version of
history will actually occur an infinite number of times.’
‘Er,’ Nesbitt hesitated, ‘is this strictly relevant?’
The Doctor shook his head. He was still smiling, but his smile faded
as he spoke. ‘Not strictly, no. But I’m trying to gain your confidence
and respect, remember. Trying to convince you that I know what I’m
talking about and that you should act. It’s not strictly relevant, more
sort of tangential. And fascinating. And frightening too, don’t you
think? Consider how fragile and thin our own reality must be.’

Doctor Who BBC860 - Time Zero
Justin Richards
2002



maybe the Kosmos is a lot bigger than we "think"=[beleive]
maybe a lot different too.
long time lurker: signed up cause of the synchronicity. the above was the first thing i thought
might also explain the evidence of other universes

HNY 2011

REPLY TO: DerepentLEstranger

You write after quoting Dr. Who:
-Maybe the Kosmos is a lot bigger than we "think"=[beleive]
-Maybe a lot different too.
-Long time lurker: signed up cause of the synchronicity. the above was the first thing i thought
might also explain the evidence of other universes
-HNY 2011


Both you and Dr. Who have a view of the universe which is more life-like than current thinking. Did you know there is a book which describes the actual universe design and mechanisms? In it, it describes space as surrounding a central core with space itself as a three dimensional disk extending out perpendicular to the gravity body in the center of the core.

This space disk rotates around the gravity body (i.e. space motions around the core) in a counter-clockwise direction. However, like Dr. Who tried to explain, once out of the space that we reckon the use of time within it, there are other space zones that run in a clockwise direction.

Galaxies in our own space zone (counterclockwise motion around the core) when viewed from the clockwise zones, appear to be going many times faster than they are moving. Therefore, such observers can not properly measure red or blue shifts. Somehow equations must be created to account for these [presently] unknown motions of space around a central gravity body of space.

But even more fascinating is the revealed fact that the space disk has a different kind of space above it and below it. Our space is called pervaded space - it contains matter and life. The space which is above and below the pervaded space disk is unpervaded space - dead zones which have no matter and no life. The book explains they believe unpervaded space serves the purpose of encapsulating the universe to act as a buffer and prevent unwanted space expansion. As living beings, you and I will never be able to experience unpervaded space as life support systems exist only in pervaded space.

So Dr. Who is reaching for a time when it becomes obvious that space itself is a moving and plastic organism with motions of space undreamed of as yet by our somewhat primitive sciences.

Thank you for your post and a HNY 2011 to you and all reading.

reply to post by Aronolac


being a incurable bibliophile youve triggered a pavlovian reflex

drools "book what book?"

So Dr. Who is reaching for a time when it becomes obvious that space itself is a moving and plastic organism with motions of space undreamed of as yet by our somewhat primitive sciences.

that so puts me in mind of the Magic Mirror from Morrisson's the Invisibles

January 02, 2011
REPLY TO: DerepentLEstranger

DLE, breathing heavily, wrote:
“being a incurable bibliophile you’ve triggered a Pavlovian reflex
“[drools] "book what book?"

Only the best kept secret for half a century and more. It has been maligned and misunderstood to the point it is criticized even before it is read. Give it a chance: read it! Let me quote from the Paper on space in the Urantia Book to give you a taste of how it is written:

“Space is, from the human viewpoint, nothing—negative; it exists only as related to something positive and nonspatial. Space is, however, real. It contains and conditions motion. It even moves. Space motions may be roughly classified as follows:

[1]Primary motion—space respiration, the motion of space itself.
[2]Secondary motion—the alternate directional swings of the successive space levels.
[3]Relative motions—relative in the sense that they are not evaluated with Paradise [the central core] as a base point.
[4]Primary and secondary motions are absolute, motion in relation to unmoving Paradise [central core].
[5]Compensatory or correlating movement designed to co-ordinate all other motions.

“The present relationship of your sun and its associated planets, while disclosing many relative and absolute motions in space, tends to convey the impression to astronomic observers that you are comparatively stationary in space, and that the surrounding starry clusters and streams are engaged in outward flight at ever-increasing velocities as your calculations proceed outward in space. But such is not the case. You fail to recognize the present outward and uniform expansion of the physical creations of all pervaded space. Your own local creation (Nebadon) participates in this movement of universal outward expansion. The entire seven superuniverses participate in the two-billion-year cycles of space respiration along with the outer regions of the master universe.”
[Paper 12 Section 4 of the Urantia Book]

It speaks for itself, so I will let it do that for you.

Thanks for your response.

Originally posted by Aronolac
January 02, 2011
REPLY TO: DerepentLEstranger

DLE, breathing heavily, wrote:
“being a incurable bibliophile you’ve triggered a Pavlovian reflex
“[drools] "book what book?"

Only the best kept secret for half a century and more. It has been maligned and misunderstood to the point it is criticized even before it is read. Give it a chance: read it! Let me quote from the Paper on space in the Urantia Book to give you a taste of how it is written:

“Space is, from the human viewpoint, nothing—negative; it exists only as related to something positive and nonspatial. Space is, however, real. It contains and conditions motion. It even moves. Space motions may be roughly classified as follows:

[1]Primary motion—space respiration, the motion of space itself.
[2]Secondary motion—the alternate directional swings of the successive space levels.
[3]Relative motions—relative in the sense that they are not evaluated with Paradise [the central core] as a base point.
[4]Primary and secondary motions are absolute, motion in relation to unmoving Paradise [central core].
[5]Compensatory or correlating movement designed to co-ordinate all other motions.

“The present relationship of your sun and its associated planets, while disclosing many relative and absolute motions in space, tends to convey the impression to astronomic observers that you are comparatively stationary in space, and that the surrounding starry clusters and streams are engaged in outward flight at ever-increasing velocities as your calculations proceed outward in space. But such is not the case. You fail to recognize the present outward and uniform expansion of the physical creations of all pervaded space. Your own local creation (Nebadon) participates in this movement of universal outward expansion. The entire seven superuniverses participate in the two-billion-year cycles of space respiration along with the outer regions of the master universe.”
[Paper 12 Section 4 of the Urantia Book]

It speaks for itself, so I will let it do that for you.

Thanks for your response.

I'll go out on a limb again and add the Universe doesn't move... It assembles. Use your flat screen for example and boost it up to... Let's go with 432,000hz. What you experience as mass is intervals of spun density/ discharge.

reply to post by Aronolac


i had the weirdest feeling it was Urantia book
saw it years ago and all those rays and projections were sort of intimidating and i was just a beginner

just found it on my hard drive I'm a power downloader and remembered i had it somewhere
got it from: www.occult-underground.com
will check it out today
thanks for the reply