What does a 33 degree freemason know?

reply to post by network dude


well said but i heard they turn into zombies

Originally posted by seeknoevil
In Biblical text, Lucifer the morning star, rebelled against God l and became the father of lies when he proclaimed that he could bring all souls back to the Father.

Can you show us exactly where in the Bible this took place?

reply to post by The GUT

He received his degree as any other man would have. Pike had his knowledge and opinions.

I have a bookshelf of Mackey's books. They are a fascinating read, but I still do research their opinions to ensure accuracy.

It is my opinion that no ritual of Freemasonry pushes one towards apotheosis.

Affinity for Lucifer? For mentioning it a few times? That seems like an exaggeration.

reply to post by seeknoevil

There is nothing wrong with secrecy.

I'm Christian and many of you are fanatical in your beliefs.

Really? You're going to degrade my fraternity and then tell us we need to be more tolerant?

reply to post by seeknoevil

Actually Lucifer is only mentioned in the Book of Isaiah as a disgraced Babylonian king who fell from the grace of his throne. If you read more than just the one verse, you'd see they even identify him as a human, as a king.

You do also realize that Jesus refers to himself as the morning star? Lucifer was not the name of Satan/Devil in heaven. If anything his name would have been Samael.

You should probably do some research into Biblical mistranslations...as there are many.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
And that's an important distinction to make. Again, Pike scoffed at the idea of a devil, thinking it a primitive man's way of explaining evil in the world. But if he professed Gnostic philosophies, that doesn't make him a fan of the character Lucifer.

You probably understand more about the mystical aspects of Freemasonry than many of your brothers posting here. I believe you've discussed astral travel amongst other things on the board before if I remember correctly.

And as such, you realize that to the Christian, we see Gnosticism (which leads to moral dualism) with it's divine creator who encompasses both good and evil, as having a historical lineage including Egypt's primary god's and the Indian Vedanta, Buddhism, and to some degree, as previously mentioned, the yin-yang of Chinese spirituality.

Gnosticism, btw, is credited with the birth of Luciferianism as I'm guessing you know. Not that they are the same, but they are concatenate and share some philosophy.

And I'm not saying that Freemasonry's teaching are strictly Gnostic. But I do believe that its deeper teachings are a syncretism with the religions and philosophies listed above.

Syncretism, if the Bible proves correct, would basically be the spirituality of an NWO.

So, Freemasonry, at least for those who pursue it's teachings to their ultimate depth, is inherently anti-Christian in thought.

Meaning that a Freemason who pursues it's mystical path would thusly reject--and at least somewhat disdain--the Christian belief system and has more in common with Egyptian spirituality and by extension Nimrod and Babylonia.

Is that a bad thing? Only if us Christians prove to be right.

I've never been a fan of dualism. And as much as Pike talks about avoiding the baser sins--and I have no immediate reason to doubt his sincerity in that--the concept lends itself to, among other things an, "Ends justifies the means" philosophy.

And speaking of an NWO, if I remember correctly, there is some language in Morals & Dogma about Freemasons and society building that had what might be perceived as the whiff of NWO about them? Does that ring any bells? Not being a smart-alec at all, I just know you would know where it's at and you don't mind discussing the meaning of the text. It would take me a good amount of time to find it.

I'm not trying to be a "down with evil Freemasons" instigator here, but clarifying the mystical belief system and why we Christians are prone to see it in the terms we discuss. Thanks for the stuff you shared.

Originally posted by KSigMason
It is my opinion that no ritual of Freemasonry pushes one towards apotheosis.

Thanks for your opinion on that. It gets kind of complicated because at times the writings do seem to suggest it. Or at least share commonalities with the philosophy. You may be right, but the jury is still out for me.

I admit I'm still rather to new to the subject. I only really started looking at it because I wanted to see if my fellow Christians were giving Freemasonry a fair shake.

It has become apparent though that mystic masonry is a far cry from Christianity.

reply to post by The GUT
Scottish Rite Freemasonry is more like a comparaitive religion course one might take at a University where your fellow classmates are of all faiths. At times the subject appeals directly to your faith, at others you learn similarities and differences with other faiths.

You don't agree with me, and that is okay. So I have made my point here and don't think anything else is to be made from it. It seems to me that I am provoking you in some way and that is not my intent . So I will bail this thread .

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Incorrect. What Pike is trying to say is that those who are just initiates ascribe to the mythological form of Pan, whence came Lucifer. Pike does not believe in any of them, that is the point he is trying to make and those that do are but initiates and do not fully understand God.

Hopefully, to clear it up, Pike is here quoting from Eliphas Levi's "Transcendental Magic". In occultism, "Satan" is an archetypal symbol that represents the libido, or what the Hindus call "kundalini". It's an important concept in occultism, but I'm not sure how deep Pike's personal knowledge of this line of thinking went. When speaking about religious ideas and concepts, he was sometimes contradictory.

Originally posted by seeknoevil
You don't agree with me, and that is okay. So I have made my point here and don't think anything else is to be made from it. It seems to me that I am provoking you in some way and that is not my intent . So I will bail this thread .

So instead of backing up what you claimed you opt to run out of the thread?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by seeknoevil
You don't agree with me, and that is okay. So I have made my point here and don't think anything else is to be made from it. It seems to me that I am provoking you in some way and that is not my intent . So I will bail this thread .

So instead of backing up what you claimed you opt to run out of the thread?

Not run, but leave yes. To carry on would be hitting a brick wall. Our beliefs are vastly contrary to one another it seems and I have no wish to 'degrade' or insult members here.

GUT, I appreciate the discussion, and I hope you can teach me something here, because I just don't get it. Maybe I'm getting hung up on the language...

Originally posted by The GUT
And as such, you realize that to the Christian, we see Gnosticism (which leads to moral dualism) with it's divine creator who encompasses both good and evil, as having a historical lineage including Egypt's primary god's and the Indian Vedanta, Buddhism, and to some degree, as previously mentioned, the yin-yang of Chinese spirituality.
...
I've never been a fan of dualism.

Wikipedia says

Moral dualism is the belief of the great complement or conflict between the benevolent and the malignant.

Isn't that what Christianity preaches when they try to scare people with the idea of a devil? Eternal conflict between good and evil? That sounds like bitheism to me.

The God I believe in is omnipotent. If something is all-powerful, how can anything happen against His will?

Not baiting you here, I really don't get it. You're saying Christians think Dualism is a bad thing, yet they are the ones who are saying there is a conflict. I'm saying (and Pike is saying) that it's all the Will of God; it's all part of His plan. While Christians invent a scapegoat to place the blame elsewhere. How is that not Dualism?

Originally posted by seeknoevil
Our beliefs are vastly contrary to one another it seems and I have no wish to 'degrade' or insult members here.

This has nothing to do with our beliefs. You claimed something was in the Bible, I asked you where it was. I am still awaiting your answer as to where.

Originally posted by seeknoevil
In Biblical text, Lucifer the morning star, rebelled against God l and became the father of lies when he proclaimed that he could bring all souls back to the Father.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Not baiting you here, I really don't get it. You're saying Christians think Dualism is a bad thing, yet they are the ones who are saying there is a conflict. I'm saying (and Pike is saying) that it's all the Will of God; it's all part of His plan. While Christians invent a scapegoat to place the blame elsewhere. How is that not Dualism?

I don't feel baited. I know that we both have a warrior character and the conviction of our beliefs as we know them.

As a Christian I might find the moral ambiguity and occult leanings of Pike rather odious, but as a Southerner I'm proud that he's the only Confederate with a statue on Federal property in Washington!

Dualism, of the "checkerboard" God variety, seems to me, to generally lead to some form of moral relativism. That's where I was clunkily headed towards.

If the "Force" is basically "impersonal" and enfolds both black & white within itself, then it becomes very easy, especially if one supposes he has a hidden gnosis and a higher purpose, to adopt the "ends justifies the means" philosophy. (Reminds me: are you gonna help me find that section from M&D on society building or do I hafta?)

Now, having said that, if you wanted to be insulting and disingenuous--which I know you won't be but someone reading this would be tempted to--you could bring up what the Catholic church and even what the Royal "Protestants" have done.

But neither of those were acting as Christians when they did things like the Crusades and the Inquisition. They were obviously operating under a different set of imperatives and under the spell of the fallen one imo. Definitely some moral relativism working in their black hearts, but not one inherent in Biblical spiritual philosophy.

Now I ask you: What happens to a man after death in the Masonic mystical sense? Are good and evil perpetually & equally balanced on the cosmic checkerboard?

Originally posted by The GUT
Now I ask you: What happens to a man after death in the Masonic mystical sense?

Masonry does not describe the afterlife. It only requires that a candidate believe the sould is eternal.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by The GUT
Now I ask you: What happens to a man after death in the Masonic mystical sense?

Masonry does not describe the afterlife. It only requires that a candidate believe the sould is eternal.

Possibly, but, and no offense, Masonic Light already had to clarify your earlier statement and it seems the deeper one goes into the mystic elements the foggier it gets.

If accurate, it does bring to mind the question of how the Freemason can be so sure of the qualities of the Grand Architect and the mystical tradition and yet remain unclear about where it all leads.

Don't get me wrong: It's a fascinating philosophy from what I'm seeing. It's not all new to me, however. I've danced with the occult before and some of the same themes turn up time & again. But I'm looking for and at what the Freemason that pursues the mystical elements and symbology believes.

Is it significantly different from what is taught in the various mystery traditions? I admit the philosophy seems more developed than some traditions and yet definitive explanations are hard to find.

Originally posted by The GUT
And speaking of an NWO, if I remember correctly, there is some language in Morals & Dogma about Freemasons and society building that had what might be perceived as the whiff of NWO about them? Does that ring any bells?

Not sure. There's this one

But it is also the duty of Masonry to assist in elevating the moral and intellectual level of society; in coining knowledge, bringing ideas into circulation, and causing the mind of youth to grow; and in putting, gradually, by the teachings of axioms and the promulgation of positive laws, the human race in harmony with its destinies.

To this duty and work the Initiate is apprenticed. He must not imagine that he can effect nothing, and, therefore, despairing, become inert. It is in this, as in a man's daily life. Many great deeds are done in the small struggles of life. There is, we are told, a determined though unseen bravery, which defends itself, foot to foot, in the darkness, against the fatal invasion of necessity and of baseness. There are noble and mysterious triumphs, which no eye sees, which no renown rewards, which no flourish of trumpets salutes. Life, misfortune, isolation, abandonment, poverty, are battle-fields, which have their heroes,--heroes obscure, but sometimes greater than those who become illustrious. The Mason should struggle in the same manner, and with the same bravery, against those invasions of necessity and baseness, which come to nations as well as to men. He should meet them, too, foot to foot, even in the darkness, and protest against the national wrongs and follies; against usurpation and the first inroads of that hydra, Tyranny. There is no more sovereign eloquence than the truth in indignation. It is more difficult for a people to keep than to gain their freedom. The Protests of Truth are always needed. Continually, the right must protest against the fact. There is, in fact, Eternity in the Right. The Mason should be the Priest and Soldier of that Right. If his country should be robbed of her liberties, he should still not despair. The protest of the Right against the Fact persists forever. The robbery of a people never becomes prescriptive. Reclamation of its rights is barred by no length of time. Warsaw can no more be Tartar than Venice can be Teutonic. A people may endure military usurpation, and subjugated States kneel to States and wear the yoke, while under the stress of necessity; but when the necessity disappears, if the people is fit to be free, the submerged country will float to the surface and reappear, and Tyranny be adjudged by History to have murdered its victims.

Whatever occurs, we should have Faith in the Justice and over-ruling Wisdom of God, and Hope for the Future, and Loving-kindness for those who are in error. God makes visible to men His will in events; an obscure text, written in a mysterious language. Men make their translations of it forthwith, hasty, incorrect, full of faults, omissions, and misreadings. We see so short a way along the arc of the great circle! Few minds comprehend the Divine tongue. The most sagacious, the most calm, the most profound, decipher the hieroglyphs slowly; and when they arrive with their text, perhaps the need has long gone by; there are already twenty translations in the public square--the most incorrect being, as of course, the most accepted and popular. From each translation, a party is born; and from each misreading, a faction. Each party believes or pretends that it has the only true text, and each faction believes or pretends that it alone possesses the light. Moreover, factions are blind men, who aim straight, errors are excellent projectiles, striking skillfully, and with all the violence that springs from false reasoning, wherever a want of logic in those who defend the right, like a defect in a cuirass, makes them vulnerable.

pp19-20
or this one

The practical object of Masonry is the physical and moral amelioration and the intellectual and spiritual improvement of individuals and society. Neither can be effected, except by the dissemination of truth. It is falsehood in doctrines and fallacy in principles, to which most of the miseries of men and the misfortunes of nations are owing. Public opinion is rarely right on any point; and there are and always will be important truths to be substituted in that opinion in the place of many errors and absurd and injurious prejudices. There are few truths that public opinion has not at some time hated and persecuted as heresies; and few errors that have not at some time seemed to it truths radiant from the immediate presence of God. There are moral maladies, also, of man and society, the treatment of which requires not only boldness, but also, and more, prudence and discretion; since they are more the fruit of false and pernicious doctrines, moral, political, and religious, than of vicious inclinations.

p219

reply to post by The GUT


you may get 10 different answers to the same question when asking 10 different Freemasons. We are taught in the blue lodge that we are to live pure and spotless lives. We know that cannot happen, but we are supposed to try as best we can. And we hope to make it to stand in front of he who siteth as Judge Supreme. But nowhere are we offered salvation, or even hinted that we might get it. And we are constantly reminded that the things we do for others is only done because it is the right thing to do. Not because we think the more we give, the better seat we will obtain in heaven.

I think that if someone reads into our teachings that masonry offers salvation has done their learning institution a great dis-service. We are encouraged to follow our own faith.

This one, out of context, could have a NWO interpretation, I suppose:

Masonry is the great Peace Society of the world. Wherever it exists, it struggles to prevent international difficulties and disputes; and to bind Republics, Kingdoms, and Empires together in one great band of peace and amity. It would not so often struggle in vain, if Masons knew their power and valued their oaths.

p125

or perhaps this one:

Is it true that Masonry is effete; that the acacia, withered, affords no shade; that Masonry no longer marches in the advance-guard of Truth? No. Is freedom yet universal? Have ignorance and prejudice disappeared from the earth? Are there no longer enmities among men? Do cupidity and falsehood no longer exist? Do toleration and harmony prevail among religious and political sects? There are works yet left for Masonry to accomplish, greater than the twelve labors of Hercules; to advance ever resolutely and steadily; to enlighten the minds of the people, to reconstruct society, to reform the laws, and to improve the public morals. The eternity in front of it is as infinite as the one behind. And Masonry cannot cease to labor in the cause of social progress, without ceasing to be true to itself, without ceasing to be Masonry.

p188

But then, this sounds pretty firmly anti-NWO

Its fidelity to its mission will be accurately evidenced, by the extent of the efforts it employs, and the means it sets on foot, to improve the people at large and to better their condition; chiefest of which, within its reach, is to aid in the education of the children of the poor. An intelligent people, informed of its rights, will soon come to know its power, and cannot long be oppressed; but if there be not a sound and virtuous populace, the elaborate ornaments at the top of the pyramid of society will be a wretched compensation for the want of solidity at the base. It is never safe for a nation to repose on the lap of ignorance: and if there ever was a time when public tranquillity was insured by the absence of knowledge, that season is past. Unthinking stupidity cannot sleep, without being appalled by phantoms and shaken by terrors. The improvement of the mass of the people is the grand security for popular liberty; in the neglect of which, the politeness, refinement, and knowledge accumulated in the higher orders and wealthier classes will some day perish like dry grass in the hot fire of popular fury.

There was an ATS member here years ago who used to joke with me that we should have a tread in the Debate forum and use nothing but out-of-context Pike quotes to support both sides of our argument.

Originally posted by The GUT
Dualism, of the "checkerboard" God variety, seems to me, to generally lead to some form of moral relativism. That's where I was clunkily headed towards.

But if the checkerboards is clearly black and white, and relativism is a billion shades of gray in between, I don't see how the two could be confused.

Now I ask you: What happens to a man after death in the Masonic mystical sense? Are good and evil perpetually & equally balanced on the cosmic checkerboard?

I won't know what happens after I die until I die.

I don't live my life in hopes of personal reward in the afterlife.

Masonry teaches the mortality of man. The skull is one of our symbols because at some point, every one of us, regardless of rank or station, will meet the same fate.

I could die tomorrow, or in another hundred years (OK, probably not, unless Aubrey deGray has any luck). But I try to live my life such that if I were to die today, the world would still be a better place for my having been in it. My afterlife is how I touched the lives of my family, my friends, and my community. If I've lived my life well, then I've led my children by setting a good example for them. If I contribute to a charity, the benefits of the research I've helped fund may not be fully realized in my lifetime.

Living a just and upright life helps the world I live in. What happens to me after I die is something I'll deal with when I get there. If there is a heaven and God gives me a pat on the back, great. If there's no afterlife at all, and I'm just 6 feet in a hole, that's OK too. Either way, I was the best man I could be. No regrets.

Originally posted by The GUT


Dualism, of the "checkerboard" God variety, seems to me, to generally lead to some form of moral relativism. That's where I was clunkily headed towards.

I would disagree that Freemasonry teaches moral relativism. In fact, Masonry is pretty adament in its teachings that morality is of divine establishment, whatever they may actually be.

The mosiac pavement isn't symbolizing good and evil per se, but balance and harmony between material things and spiritual things. The symbol represents the same concepts as found in the Yin Yang symbol of Taoism. I think you would find few (if any) Masons who believe that morality is relative.