Originally posted by Jamuhn
I know 1 & 2, but the translations are assumed to be based on something. That is why they all talk about Hermes. I already said why alchemy would have evolved from this.

When you make an assumption you make an @$$ out of U and Mption. (i'll have no part in it.) How could heavily Christianized books full of previously unknown ingredients be based on anything earlier? THINK man- most if not all of THAT Hermetica is false. The books the Greeks were talking about MAY be somewhere to be found, may not exist anymore, or may have never really existed. But they ARE NOT the basis for "the secret sermon on the mount" and other such things. (the secret sermon is probably a cousin to the book of Enoch- there seems to have been an apocryphal fascination with the idea that either Enoch recieved secrets from the fallen angels, or moses recieved secrets on the mountain.)

And 3. You just say that because they haven't been found. If everyone had that kind of attitude nothing would ever be found.

You would be right, if it weren't for the point above- that there can't be a stone tablet associated with the psuedo-hermetic books such as the secret sermon on the mount, because the information in that book doesn't predate that book itself.

That is presicely why I am trying to find their origins. You say it is written by an alchemist, what the alchemists name was Hermes. The whole point is its littered by the name Hermes which is associated with Thoth. Just because he may have been a mythological figure does not mean there was something prior to those translations.

Holy mutha freakin something, I better just bite my tongue and take a minute before I respond... You get debunked, but she says "it was written by an alchemist". So you say, WAIT, I'm not debunked, because Hermes was an alchemist!
Hermes existed long before Christian books which are attributed to him. My research into Greek Gods has the sons of Hermes consistently being placed about 2 generations before the trojan war, which means that any historical hermes character could be attributed to the mid to late second millenium BC, at least with the limited evidence I have seen so far. Hermes didn't write these books. Hermes didn't originate the knowledge in them. Hermes is a minor fascination indulged in by the Christian writer of these books.
Let me break it down barney style for you- suppose I was going to write a book about modern war tactics, but to make it interesting i called it the lost writings of genghis kahn. You could call it a translation and look for the basis, but it would be all about 21st century mechanized forces, and genghis kahn would contribute nothing but a name. But wait- it was written by a military man, and Genghis Kahn was a military man! There must be a link!

That is a good point, I should see how far back I can go. But what if Greek philosophy was affected by these tablets seeing as Hermes is of the Greeks.

You don't belong in history- you belong in theoretical physics. At least you do if you honestly have figured out how Christian alchemists influenced Greek philosophy. "These tablets" didn't influence Greek philosophy. Strictly in theory, the REAL Hermetica, IF it exists, may have influenced Greek philosophy, but there's a problem with that too.
Byrd I need your confirmation of this point... in the period roughly surrounding the Trojan War, wasn't the Linear B script being used? Specifically wasn't it found in the level of Troy immediately following what may have been Homer's Trojan War (Troy VIa or VIIa or some such thing?)? Hermes is dated to 2 generations pre-trojan war, which means if I'm right he would have used the difficult Linear B script, which would hinder his influence significantly. (forgive me if my reference to Troy is wrong or slightly off- you've got to keep in mind that I'm actually a heavy equipment operator, and not terribly well educated, regardless of my IQ).

That doesn't say anything about Thoth. The fact is Thoth was talked about a lot in other heiroglyphics and other early Egyptian works. I'll pull up where mentions are made of Thoth's works in very old Egyptian texts in my next post.

That says EVERYTHING about Thoth. What it doesn't say anything about is alchemists. You know why I think that is? Because Egyptian Gods weren't projected into every single bit of history the way Greek ones are, which means Thoth wasn't based on an alchemist probably- he was just merged with Hermes, who might have been based on one, or on SOME historical figure, MAYBE.

But, I do thank you for giving me some places to look for information because I am wholly new to this concept, specifically, I will look for mentions of the work and the oldest known reference to the Emerald Tablets....

If there's going to be research on the Hermetica itself it needs to be directed at finding initial evidence that a legit Hermetica exists. Researching the origins of the pseudo-hermetic christian books is a fool's errand. Researching medival alchemy is just boring to me.
Research Hermes himself- great. Research Greek Mythology and possible historical bases for the stories- great. If we're really lucky, finding legit ancient greek philosophical works attributed to Hermes (entirely seperate from anything you've presented so far)- great. Reading the Secret Sermon on the Mount- not for me. Thinking that you're going to find pictures of mystical emerald tablets online when NOBODY is recorded to have seen them in the last 3400 or so years... waste of time, even if they ever did exist.

As for ending disbelief with a hand full of egyptian texts that are probably in mortal danger of a rapid debunking... good luck. People in this forum even argue about the deluge, and there's quite a bit of text about that, compared to your emerald tablets or other such things.

where ever real truth is there will always be people trying to cover it up.

the tablets are real but i doubt you will find the real translations of the internet.

Thank you and I totally agree with you. Some people need proof rather than belief so this is more like an exercise than anything to open people's minds up.

[edit on 12-7-2004 by Jamuhn]

hey while im here does anyone know a website where i can convert english into Egyptian hieroglyphs?

That would be bloody awesome, especially for anyone who wanted to start their own hoax .

thats true vagabond, but there are hoaxes with historical basis and those without. And while I would like to think the collective of humanity is omniscient, it simply isn't true .

We can only debunk a few hoaxes. And then, there are even many things that we believe without questioning, and those as well could very well be hoaxes.

People are so concerned with providing proof for things that seem "unbelievable," and then forget that the proof itself they look for is an assumption.

So, why not free our minds. Anything is possible, there is no way to prove otherwise. I, for one, will keep searching for these tablets. Maybe one day it will lead me on a journey.

And even if I don't find the tablets, whats the harm. It was an experience nonetheless, and I may find something else I was looking for along the way.

And even if I do find the tablets, whats the big whoop. How could I be so naive to think that the tablets actually mean anything? After all, nothing is real like we want it to be.

You're taking me seriously. It's a common mistake, so don't feel bad.
I was saying that a website that translates english to glyphs would be good for hoaxes, that's all. I lost my sense of ambition when explorer killed the effort I'd put into checking out your last post. I'll try again eventually, but I've been spending more time on my own stuff and on the "easy kills" around here.

Originally posted by Inf0rm3r
high priests of the ‘Great White Brotherhood’, priesthood that Thoth had appointed before his departure to the Halls of Amenti.

*crackle of a bullhorn*
THIS IS THE THEOSOPHY POLICE- WE HAVE YOU SURRONDED- COME OUT WITH YOUR HEADS DOWN (in shame).
The great white brotherhood is the mythical source of HP Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine" regarding Lemuria and the Third Root Race, both of which are hinged on the failed Lemurian theory of Ernst Haeckel, whose assumption was rendered obsolete by the discovery of continental drift. I swear nobody is reading my posts.

Some thirteen hundred years B.C., Egypt, the ancient Khem, was in turmoil and many delegations of priests were sent to other parts of the world. Among these were the high priests of the ‘G.W.B’

If you try to bring George W. Bush into this there is going to be a bi-partisan effort to kill you here. (I know that GWB is great white brotherhood, but this can't all be serious)

The G.W.B priests immigrated to South America where they found a flourishing race, the Mayas who remembered much of the ancient wisdom. Among these, the priests settled and remained. In the tenth century, the Mayas had thoroughly settled the Yucatan, and the tablets were placed beneath the altar of Quetzalcoatl known as the ’winged serpent’ one of the Sun God and said to be a reincarnation of thoth.

Plumed Serpent is the more common rendering actually, but i'm no linguist so have it your way. You seem to be telling me that the builders of the pyramids were interacting with the Mayans. Am I tracking? If I am, I would like for you to please look up and post exactly when you think the pyramids were built and when the Mayan civilization reached its peak. I also am curious where these tablets are now, since apparently somebody has finally remembered where they put them when they were done playing with them .

The book by Zecharia Sitchin’s, ‘When Time Began’, contains more information about this Thoth/Quetzalcoatl connection. After the conquest of the Mayas by the Spaniards, the cities were abandoned and the treasures of the temples forgotten.

Sitchin stands accussed of picking and choosing his translations and mythologies, on the verge of outright making it up, on the subject of Sumerian texts and "Nibiru". I'll get details on that later, but you can probably find them with a search on the site for Coast to Coast AM with George Noory. (George Noory has guests trashing Sitchin- that's a SERIOUS sign of credibility problems in the fringe-theorist world)

It should be understood that the Great Pyramid of Egypt has been and still is a temple of initiation into the mysteries. Jesus, Solomon, Apollonius and others were initiated there.

Why did you have to say that? If I can't disprove that in the next 30 minutes I'll have no choice but to renounce Christ. (not really). How are you going to tell me that Jesus was initiated there? I am assuming you have proof of some kind that you just forgot to show us. I just sort of assumed that if there was documentation on Jesus at all, the bible would be the place to look. Luke Chapter 4 makes it clean enough to me that he was at the temple in Jerusalem when Satan tempted him, and the mountain in the wilderness is traditionally located near the dead sea. Moot point though, because it was a mountain in the wilderness, not a pyramid in the desert.

I hope some other intelligent people will bear me out on this; "Anything is possible" is an exageration, and often a cop-out in the absence of evidence.
There is no evidence for the story being advanced here- in fact there is contrary evidence, yet "anything is possible" is enough for those who simply distrust the established school of thought and enjoy the thrill of seeking (both feelings are valid and I share them, however I make a conscious effort to stay in the realm of respectable research and science and follow my fantasy methodically in order to test it and not be made a fool of).
It is possible that there are emerald tablets of some kind, containing history or philosophy from some ancient source, which is relevant to mythology. There is no evidence for or against it, so it can fall into the rather lame catagory of possibility, where we can retrieve it, should it ever be necessary to make another theory (based on evidence preferably) work.

It is not possible that a fraud who pinned her work on a failed evolutionary hypothesis over 100 years ago recieved a secret doctrine from the great white brotherhood, because key elements of that belief have been discredited.

You look like your just after a fight but at the same time trying to shut down the thread

You will find about a hundred different stories and theories on who the GWB were, the answer is they were 13 craftsman initiates in the priesthood of the Ancient Mystery Schools of Egypt.

When did I say the builders of the great pyramid were interacting with the Mayans?

Btw, no one knows the exact date the pyramids of Giza were built or the date of when the Mayans reached their peak, sorry we haven’t invented the time machine yet but hey if you know let me know. I have a good idea of where the tablets are now, but theirs an old quote that goes "He who talks does not know; he who knows does not talk"

The “Fringe-theorist-world” will always have ignorant people like you who just like to debate about anything they have read two lines about off a web site somewhere, half the time I wonder if they question other peoples work just because they are incapable of doing the research them self’s.

You disagree with “anything is possible” yet you agree that it can fall into the fall into the rather lame category of possibility?


[edit on 19-7-2004 by Inf0rm3r]

Originally posted by Inf0rm3r
You look like your just after a fight but at the same time trying to shut down the thread


"He who talks does not know; he who knows does not talk"


The “Fringe-theorist-world” will always have ignorant people like you who just like to debate about anything they have read two lines about off a web site somewhere, half the time I wonder if they question other peoples work just because they are incapable of doing the research them self’s.

[edit on 19-7-2004 by Inf0rm3r]

I did not start this discussion with the intent to fight or to end this discussion. I have made a strong effort to channel this discussion along the lines dictated by evidence, and to keep charlatans and cultists like Le Plongeon and Blavatsky seperate from credible evidence.

Let me give you some insight into my reasons, if you care for it. When I came to ATS I was determined to prove that there had been a nuclear war in 8000 BC. I believed in it, and I fought for the theory, only to find out later that one of my major sources was a complete fraud. I set high standards for myself, and I expect a lot from others as well. I hate when I'm wrong, and I dont like other people who are wrong either. That's why I'm aggressive about the truth, and I push for an absolutist viewpoint (not all things are possible, not all beliefs are equal).

I attacked your arguement with carefully researched evidence. I'm the one who found both the scientific and mythological origins of the Lemuria/Mu stories. I'm the one who compared the dating on those. I'm the one who brought up Le Plongeon's name first for that matter. You responded by giving several different versions of your story- falling back each time you were opposed, then you called me ignorant and said "he who knows does not talk." (Thats the same expression the KKK uses to deny their low membership numbers).

I'm not ignorant buddy, I've done more reading on lost continents/civilizations that any 2 people here who don't hold degrees. I've contributed more sources and new evidence to this discussion than you or anyone else, so your claim that I have failed to research makes it clear that you have no where left to go with this arguement and have resorted to attempting to discredit me personally.
You were half right about one thing though- we seldom discuss anything in this forum that I haven't read a line or two about. I've had an obsession with the mysterious since I was 10 and I used to think MS Encarta was a videogame. It often gives me a jumping-off point for the HOURS of research that sometimes go into my posts. (I would, and have in the past, spent 2-3 hours reading before I post, just because I hate to be wrong)

So- we started with a spirited discussion and you couldn't hack it. -NOW- I'm looking for a fight... but lets handle this in U2U and save ourselves the red-tags. (Note that I say selves, not "self's". On that note, I'm looking forward to further discussion on the subject of ignorance.)

So you tryed to get into the KKK? jokking....., i'l u2u you....

Well, I do shave my head, but that's only because my hair started thinning at age 17. Actually I find the KKK repulsive- I read that bit about them because there were several news stories on them when a chapter was opened in Sky Valley, CA.

Anyway, my new buddy and I have exchanged U2Us and rumor has it that I'm a bit of an @$$ hole. My intention was only to have a discussion in terms of right and wrong, based on evidence. That's the difference between fiction and non-fiction, is it not? Anyway, if it makes the world a better place I could start wording things softer and presenting things in the form of questions I suppose, but I just thought I'd ask everyone and be sure that I'm not way out of line here. It -is- OK to press the issue of evidence, isn't it?

The biggest lack of evidence is that the noone has found these tablets yet. Whether someone has even looked, I don't know, I assume so, but I haven't heard anything serious.

I think there is more than enough evidence though to suggest that they do exist. So maybe it is about time for a serious expedition.

Greetings questers,

If you would care to follow this link, you may find information relevant to this discussion:

www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread66000/pg1

Best wishes to one and all

M.H.


(Is this OK?)




[edit on 29-7-2004 by Michael Hayes]

The stories are just an amusing bedtime story. For one there supposed date is off by thousands of years even the most enthusiastic Atlantis researchers argue that Platos date of 9000 BC is a tad bit dated. There are only 2 documented descriptions of Atlantis one by Plato in his Kritas and a second one that can be loosely attributed to atlantis in an ancient egyptian victory temple which explains how the egyptians defeated a sea faring people who invaded egypt. Neither of these legends (which lack any concrete shred of fact in their own right) mention any inscription left behind by the Atlantean kings. Thoth is also a name that I could not come by in any reading of egyptian or atlantian article. Plato argues that the Atlanteans believed they directly descended from Atlas and each of the kings of Atlantis were his sons. Even further if one believes Thoth to be an Atlantean who traveled to egypt and had any form of monument erected in his honor that totally fails to correspond with the fact that Egypt waged a documented war against an invading sea people (presumable atlanteans), infact the Egyptians captured, interegated, and executed a large sum of capatives from this war and in their accounts no King, General, Soldiar or Scholar, by the name of Thoth ever set foot in Egypt and if he did so the Egyptians sure as heck didnt know about it.

Thoth was the egyptian moon god. It is a common misconception that he and hermes are one in the same. In fact, they had seperate origins, but after some interaction with the Greeks, Thoth and Hermes were integrated into a new character called "Hermes Trismegius" (Hermes the thrice great).

I think Ive said everything else a few hundred times already, so I wont go into detail about Atlantis being either a Greek or Phoenecian city-state.

The age of Hermes is way off though. If he was the one who gave us so many gifts of knowledge, then he probably would have lived around 5000 BC, when people seemed to start building and writing and such. Of course there is no story to that effect, because thats not what happened. Hermes didn't do it.