The Great Controversy

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posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:19 PM
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The Great Controversy

In a discussion earlier a poster made known he is a Seventh Day Adventist. This is a post concerning a certain book of theirs and thus will probably not be of interest of others besides JWs or SDAs.

(A ground rule that I usually follow: If I make a statement regarding doctrine or belief, it will be backed up by scripture. If someone wishes to refute a statement and wants me to take it seriously they need to back it up with Biblical scripture and explain how the scripture does or does not apply. Ignoring the scripture quoted shows me you either haven’t read the argument, or choose not to take it seriously.)

The Great Controversy was a book written by Ellen G. White a woman who helped found the Seventh Day Adventist Church and considered to be a prophet by them. When I was young I ran across the book in Goodwill and picked it up and put it in my library at home. It wasn’t for several years that I actually opened it and read it though. By that time I had become a Jehovah’s Witness and had forgotten that I had the book. As I read the book I saw that the SDAs had some of the basic understandings that we do of the Bible, but that we varied very differently in others, one of them being the Sabbath day. According to the book I was reading Ellen White prophzied that the governments would force people to work on a false Sabbath day, egged on by false Christians, and that they (the SDAs) would be persecuted for refusing to do so and even put to death.
For example in Chapter 38 on page 604 we read:

Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death.


I don’t know if they still have that concept of governments, but I highly doubt this will ever come to pass. In fact religion has been losing its grip on governmental authorities ever since the fall of “Babylon the Great” in 1919. The fact that they still cling to the name of SDA leads me to believe they still believe in the great controversy they believe is surrounding the Sabbath day.

The Bible clearly states that the law was done away with at Jesus’ death. He came to fulfill the law, and as he fulfilled it, the law passed away, and a Christian now comes under a greater and an anti-typical Sabbath day that is fuller of substance, than the reality is than that of its shadow, just as Paul stated:

(Hebrews 10:1) . . .For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things. . .

The seventh day of rest from which Jehovah God rested from his works was not a literal 24 hour period. In fact we are told that we are still in his seventh day of rest at Hebrews 4:6. And then we are told about the Christian

(Hebrews 4:9-10) . . .So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own.


The anti-typical Sabbath day which the Christian enters into is a complete rest from the works of the flesh. And to him every day is a Sabbath day, in that he also must put God first in his life in everything he does. Not just on one day, nor is his worship set aside on one day. In this sense the Sabbath day into which the Christian enters is much higher and more magnified than the Sabbath day of rest the Israelites were under under the Mosaic Law. This is why Paul was able to say:

(Romans 10:4) For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.


Christ “abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees” and thus the Christian enters into God’s rest of condemnation under the law. As such a Christian is no longer obligated to fulfill the law, and enters into God's sabbath, God's rest.

Paul writing to the congregations in Galatia helping the Jews in that area understand that they needed to stop trying to gain righteousness by keeping the law, and also by trying to force newly converted gentiles to follow the law of Moses gave them an illustration as to the Law’s purpose. In so doing he likened the Law of Moses to a tutor. A tutor was a man that was to guide and train and protect a child until he was ready to be let go as a competent young man. This tutor made sure the child did not get into trouble, and kept him clean, and trained him in the way he should go.

As Israel grew up surrounded by pagan nations that worshiped their demon gods and practiced degrading things in God’s sight, the Law acted as a Tutor, keeping them clean from contamination, and guiding them until it was time that they matured. It also taught them they could not be perfect of their own merit, that no one could be declared righteous by works of the law. Thus it showed them the need for the Christ, a perfect man who would redeem them from their sins under the law. When Jesus came to earth and fulfilled the law perfectly he did away with it at his death, for it was no longer needed, just as the tutor was no longer needed, and the fleshly Jew who understood this and put faith in that sacrifice became a spiritual Jew, the whole purpose of the law to begin with:

(Galatians 3:24-25) . . .Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.

The Christian lives by means of faith not by means of works of the law and is no longer required to fulfill the law. In this misunderstanding of scripture the SDAs have erred greatly. If there is any question as to this regard, the reader of this post is greatly urged to read and meditate on the letter to the Galatians.

Ellen White coincidently wrote about a time that would come when a great preaching work would be done worldwide. In fact if I may quote her from the book again: (Chapter 38 p 612)


Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given.


Matthew 24:14 clearly states:

(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.


Back then around 1879 the year that Charles Taze Russell began publishing Zion’s Watchtower now known as The Watchtower a Christian man known as George Storrs who was coming out of bondage to the old religious thinking of Babylon the Great also came to the correct conclusion that Matthew 24:14 pointed toward a future date when Jehovah would have witnesses everywhere proclaiming his good name, and the good news of his kingdom.

Foreseeing such a time of a global preaching work being done, but not understanding how it would be he stated: “Yet too many, if they cannot see just how a thing is to be done reject it, as if it were impossible for God to do it because they cannot see the process.”

This has been fulfilled since the year 1919 in Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now in this our day there is over 7 million kingdom proclaimers who have reached the “most distant part of the earth” with their kingdom preaching. They spend over a billion hours a year and are preaching “in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations.”

In recent years Jehovah’s Witnesses have also undertaken several world-wide campaigns to expose to the world the death-like condition the people are in. Of note is the world-wide campaign to distribute the tract entitled: The End of False Religion is Near, that has a distribution into the billions in over 350 languages to more than 235 lands and island nations of the earth.

The SDA got some things right when they tried to break off from Christendom, such as the idea that the dead are unconscious just as the Bible teaches. But they kept many of the wrong teachings that had crept into apostate Christianity during the time of the great apostasy. The fact that they did not fully cleanse themselves of wrong doctrines and teachings meant that God could not use them.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a sect as they never broke off from any particular branch or sect of Christendom. Rather it was a group of sincere Bible students that joined together to earnestly study the scriptures. And by means of holy spirit they saw that while almost all Churches in Christendom held certain parts of truth as contained in the Bible, all contained error as well and refused to cleanse those errors. What the Jehovah’s Witnesses did was refine the teachings and based their understanding solely on the Bible, not on that of human traditions or philopshy. The cleansing work that was going on among them during the late 19th and early 20th century was the preparing of a people to be called by God’s name, to fulfill the prophecy that is now in fulfillment, a people known by God’s name, who have cleansed themselves of all defilement from false religious thinking, and have the great privilege of fulfilling the prophecy in Matthew 24:14 to be witnesses to the most distant part of the earth to the God of the universe. Just as it was foretold to happen:

(Malachi 3:3) . . .And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le′vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.

(Malachi 3:18) . . .And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”


(Matthew 13:39) . . .The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.
edit on 14-12-2010 by Calender because: hyperlink
edit on 14-12-2010 by Calender because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by Calender
 
Calendar,

I read through your thead and I gather you feel now that there is no law, the ten commandments are what many want put aside. Jesus said,

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I don't know JW's real well but do they hold that Jesus was not God? He was and is for me. He was God manifest in the flesh.

But John said,

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Paul has a different way of looking at the law.

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Mt 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Are the Fathers commandments not the same as Jesus's.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

I do find that the earth was made visible and inhabitable in seven solar days being made from things not seen.

Ge 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It was here but was void to start with.

Ge 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Not only is Christianity hated today, the Holy day of God is hated worse. It will not be openly crushed until Satan comes as Christ. Sunday is the day of Satan as you know he is the sun god.

I know of EGW and she was not able to get all things her way in the church. The Great Controversy book had three editions and the first one probably was more of her thoughts than the latter ones.

I know she had stated the scroll wasn't completly unrolled yet and SDA's I think had all prophecy fullfilled by 1844 and proclaim I think to be historicists. She made that statement after 1844 I think and she died 1915 if my memory is correct. I have to agree with a lot of SDA teachings but not all.

I would be interested to know what JW's believe about Jesus Christ, your acessment of that.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


Truthiron,

Greetings. Thank you for your well thought out response. I agree with you that God has laws that we must abide by, as the scriptures you pointed to mention. But a Christian is no longer under the Mosaic Law covenant as it is called.

In the first century when the governing body that presided over the Christian congregation gathered together to determine whether or not the Christians were really obliged to continue to keep the law given to Moses, they prayed and under direction of the holy spirit came to this conclusion:

(Acts 15:28-29) . . .For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”

The fact that the holy spirit lead them to this understanding, and that it was recorded in the holy record of the Bible tells us that God approved of, and helped them come to this conclusion. The Christian is no longer under the burden of the law. The only things that they were told to keep that were related to the Mosaic law were the commandments to keep from things sacrificed to idols, to abstain from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. If you notice that all of these commandments were also given prior to the Mosaic Law being in effect. For example when Noah came off of the ark he was told that he was allowed to eat meat of the animals, but he was not allowed to eat the blood, that that was to be poured out and returned to the ground, for the soul was in the blood. So we see that their understanding was that these laws were not just regulated to the Law given to Moses but were deeply seated in God's attitude toward proper worship.

If I may, I would like to refer back to Paul and his letter to the Galatians. He was telling them in no uncertain terms that they had been set free from enslavement to the Mosaic Law and as a proof of this he gave them a prophetic drama that had to do with two women: Hagar and Sarah. Both bore children to Abraham. In this prophetic drama Abraham represents God. Hagar his slave girl represented the natural nation of Israel that was inaugurated to God when given the Law at Mount Sinai. Sarah the free woman gave Abraham a child in freedom, and she represents heavenly Jerusalem, and she is the mother of the Christian congregation liberated from enslavement to the law:

(Galatians 4:24-26) . . .These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha′gar. 25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

The Christian is indeed under the law of Christ, but is no longer under the burden of the law of Moses:

(Galatians 4:31-5:1) . . .Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman. 5 For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.

Jesus Christ set the Christian free from enslavement to the law. The Christian is declared righteous not by works of the law pertaining to the old covenant, but rather because of the faith that he has put in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus' shed blood:

(Galatians 2:15-16) . . .Knowing as we do that a man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous.

The Christian on Galatia were mistaken in thinking that they could work out their own righteousness by works according to the Law given to Moses. To show them the futility of such thinking Paul reminded them:

(Galatians 3:10-14) . . .For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.” 11 Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” 12 Now the Law does not adhere to faith, but “he that does them shall live by means of them.” 13 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” 14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.


Christ, when he died, released the Christian who puts his faith in that death from the curse of the law. And his righteousnesses is not due to works but rather to faith, and that faith in Jesus sin atoning sacrifice is what gives him a righteous standing before God. For if you think you are still under the Law given to Moses you must carry out all of its laws or you are still cursed under that law.

That this thinking is not only wrong but evil Paul told those Christians:

(Galatians 3:1-3) . . .O senseless Ga‧la′tians, who is it that brought YOU under evil influence, YOU before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed impaled? 2 This alone I want to learn from YOU: Did YOU receive the spirit due to works of law or due to a hearing by faith? 3 Are YOU so senseless? After starting in spirit are YOU now being completed in flesh?

Certain ones among the Galatians were trying to impose the requirements of the law on their fellow Christians and were trying to work out their own righteousness based on the Law covenant. Notice that Paul told them that this thinking was both senseless and evil. The law leads to corruption and death. Faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice leads to life. For remember he said, if you want to prove yourself righteous by means of the law, you must keep all of the law, unless you wished to be accursed due to the law.

This is touching on a portion of what Paul said pertaining to the doing away of the law and the senselessness of continuing to follow the Law in Galatians. As stated in the OP, anyone who has any doubt as to whether we are not under obligation to fulfill the law of Moses should study that letter carefully. It becomes quite apparent that a Christian is no longer under the Law given to Moses.

True a Christian is still under law, the law of Christ, but not under the Law of Moses:

(Romans 8:1-2) . . .Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. 2 For the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

--------


As to our understanding that the seven creative days in Genesis are not to be taken literally I have dedicated an entirely different post and you may find it and our arguments as to why it is logical to conclude that the days were not literal here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

---------


I would be interested to know what JW's believe about Jesus Christ, your acessment of that.

Truthiron.


We confess faith in Jesus Christ and believe that is he is the mediator of a new and greater covenant than the one given to Moses on Mount Sinai. He is the “son of God” the “firstborn of all creation” and the “only-begotten” son of Jehovah God. We believe Jesus when he stated that he has a God, and that God is greater than he is:

(John 20:17) . . ., ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’. . .

(John 14:28) . . .The Father is greater than I am.

We believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence at his Father’s side, as the “first-born” of all creation, and that by means of him all other things, whether in heaven and earth were created through him and for him:

(Colossians 1:15-16) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

That by not by any works can a person come to be in an approved or saved condition before God, for no one can work out their own salvation. Salvation can only be attained by putting faith in the ransom sacrifice given by Jesus Christ:

(John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 08:39 PM
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The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan
that's the full title. It's the last of a set of five books covering history,
from creation of Earth to the New Earth after the universe is cleansed
of evil. The controversy is the claim by Satan that God is unjust.
If you think there is no such thing, go to an atheist forum and make a
post saying, "God is good." You will get several counter posts saying
that God is actually pretty evil.
The Great Controversy explains why the world is a bad place. God
made the world good but Satan was bothered by that and seeked to
make the world in his own fashion. Many angels had already been
affected by various arguments Satan had made to the affect that the
universe would be a better place if everyone could just do whatever they
want, with no regards to the desires of God or any sort of Law.
Killing Satan outright at that moment would have left all these angels
wondering if Satan was right and after-all God was unfair. God has placed
Satan, and those who had already committed themselves to following
Satan, under quarantine on this planet after it had already fallen from
the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
Once Satan's concept of a better way has played out to its ultimate
resulting death spiral of depravity, God will put a stop to it, since by then,
it should clear enough to everybody who was right, and if God's Law is
really the way to go.
edit on 14-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by Calender
 
Calender,

I agree that the sacrificial laws pointing to the True Lamb of God to be slain, laws given to Moses to set up the type of the True that was to come. I think you too believe the Royal Law of the 10 commandments still stand. The reason now for us since Christ, not being bound by the law is because now He abides in us and His love is now also in our hearts and since it is the law of love we are no longer bound by it as it has become our way. His stated law of love is the first four are for our love to God and the next 6 is our love to our fellow man. The law of love He gave embodies the 10 Royal ones. They are no longer a schoolmaster as they are in my heart to do and not even know them.

There is a great argument over what all laws were done away with. I find the only the one fulfilled was. I leave all to go with that as they wish as it is not a salvation issue unless believing we can continue in sin with no consequence.

Now if we are truly Christ's and abide in His love, we are now dead to sin, it's no longer in us to do so.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We are not saved by the Royal Law and none ever were, all men who have ever lived and are saved are saved by the sacrifice of the True Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

There is no doubt we see Christ different and I have explained my see of it in other replies so I won't get into that.

To teach His Truth and witness who He is, is our job. He was asked "who art thou" and I think every man and woman should search that out and make sure of the Truth on the matter.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by Calender
 

The Christian is indeed under the law of Christ, but is no longer under the burden of the law of Moses:
The Sabbath is a memorial of God's creation and being such,
would have been something instituted at creation, as told in Genesis.
The Ten Commandments says REMEMBER the Sabbath.
Egypt was under a ten day week, so Moses had to get the Hebrews
back into a seven day week.
But even though the Sabbath is mentioned in the Ten Commandments,
it predates the Law of Moses, and is mentioned in the New Testament.
The Book of Hebrews says, "There remains a Sabbath rest". Paul had
a habit of retreating to the riverside to rest on the Sabbath. In the world
made new, into eternity, the Sabbath is celebrated. I keep the Sabbath
in recognition that God created the Earth and everything in it. The idea
being, not to degrade it. It is what identifies our God.

edit on 14-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by Calender
Here is a link to the online version at Ellen G. White Estate



wikipedia
Regarding the reason for writing the book, the author reported: "In this vision at Lovett’s Grove (in 1858), most of the matter of the Great Controversy which I had seen ten years before, was repeated, and I was shown that I must write it out."[1] The theme of the original small book was expanded first to a four-volume set of books (1870-1884) and then to a separate volume in 1888. The current, 1911 edition is also one of the five-volume "Conflict of the Ages" set. The 1884, 1888, and 1911 books incorporate historical data from other authors.

[1]Ellen G. White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, pp. 265-272. As quoted in "Telling the Story" by James R. Nix. Adventist Review March 20, 2008

The gist of the "Great Controversy Vision" as it became known can be found in Chapter 29 The Origin of Evil. I used to have a copy of the 1858 Edition but gave it away circa 1982.



I don’t know if they still have that concept of governments, but I highly doubt this will ever come to pass. In fact religion has been losing its grip on governmental authorities ever since the fall of “Babylon the Great” in 1919. The fact that they still cling to the name of SDA leads me to believe they still believe in the great controversy they believe is surrounding the Sabbath day.


Now that I read where the thread seems to be going, I don't know what you're most interested in; a way of preparing for what we are going through and will be going through, or arguing about doctrine. As far as the governments are concerned, the SDA and JW have a strong tradition of non-conformity, the message being prime and official recognition by earthly governments neither sought after nor expected.

Both schools of thought view the two horned beast from the earth as US government, JW saying American-English alliance.


The fact that they did not fully cleanse themselves of wrong doctrines and teachings meant that God could not use them.

I don't find that statement to be satisfactory. Purity of doctrine is like purity from sin. If error can prevent God from using people then we might as well give up now. You even require quotes to back up any statement!

NIV
1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Personally, I find the concept of an all sufficient closed canon of scripture to be a hindrance. Canon even implies an official certified government approved legal body putting its stamp of approval on it. Where then does non-conformity fit?
edit on 15-12-2010 by pthena because: add response to last quote



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 12:40 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 

Nice to see you over here in the Religion section to contribute.
Always like to see your perspective on things.
You make a good point, that we need to be preparing for the
storm approaching, and maybe not so much in picking
out differences for the sake of partisanship.
edit on 15-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
Currently, my perspective is that the council of Nicea was the culmination of 300 years of Christian scholarship narrowed down to a statement for official definition of Christianity for the sake of empire recognition. That's 300 years worth. The non conformists kept working from there. I know the SDAs worked from 1844 to 1888, that's 44 years before they were satisfied and then pretty much stopped there. The JWs, each time they find it necessary to refine a teaching go through a shaking out process. It's still decided by committee.

My interest in this thread is that both groups are striving to present a great warning to the world. A worthy endeavor. I doubt the ability of organizations to be at the cutting edge. Didn't EGW even write that most of the SDA leadership will opt for worldly recognition over passing on newly revealed truth?



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Calender
 

The Christian is indeed under the law of Christ, but is no longer under the burden of the law of Moses:
The Sabbath is a memorial of God's creation and being such,
would have been something instituted at creation, as told in Genesis.
The Ten Commandments says REMEMBER the Sabbath.
Egypt was under a ten day week, so Moses had to get the Hebrews
back into a seven day week.
But even though the Sabbath is mentioned in the Ten Commandments,
it predates the Law of Moses, and is mentioned in the New Testament.
The Book of Hebrews says, "There remains a Sabbath rest". Paul had
a habit of retreating to the riverside to rest on the Sabbath. In the world
made new, into eternity, the Sabbath is celebrated. I keep the Sabbath
in recognition that God created the Earth and everything in it. The idea
being, not to degrade it. It is what identifies our God.

edit on 14-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



That the Sabbath was not enjoined upon any of God’s servants until after the Exodus is evident from the testimony of Deuteronomy 5:2, 3 and Exodus 31:16, 17: “It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us.” “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath . . . during their generations. . . . Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.” If Israel had already been observing the Sabbath, it could not have served as a reminder of their deliverance from Egypt by Jehovah, as shown at Deuteronomy 5:15. The fact that some of the Israelites went out to pick up manna on the seventh day, in spite of direct instruction to the contrary, indicates that Sabbath observance was something new. (Ex 16:11-30) That there was uncertainty in handling the case of the first recorded Sabbath breaker after the Law had been given at Sinai also shows that the Sabbath had only recently been instituted. (Nu 15:32-36) While in Egypt the Israelites, being slaves, could not have kept the Sabbath even if they had been under such law at the time. Pharaoh complained that Moses was interfering even when he asked for a three-day period to make a sacrifice to God. How much more so if the Israelites had tried to rest one day out of every seven. (Ex 5:1-5)


The Scriptures plainly state that Christ’s sacrifice “abolished . . . the Law of commandments consisting in decrees” and that God “blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees . . . and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” It was the complete Mosaic Law that was “abolished,” “blotted out,” taken “out of the way.” (Eph 2:13-15; Col 2:13, 14) Consequently, the whole system of Sabbaths, be they days or years, was brought to its end with the rest of the Law by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This explains why Christians can esteem “one day as all others,” whether it be a sabbath or any other day, with no fear of judgment by another. (Ro 14:4-6; Col 2:16) Paul made the following expression concerning those scrupulously observing “days and months and seasons and years”: “I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.”—Ga 4:10, 11.

After Jesus’ death, his apostles at no time commanded Sabbath observance. The Sabbath was not included as a Christian requirement at Acts 15:28, 29, or later. Nor did they institute a new sabbath, a “day of the Lord.” Even though Jesus was resurrected on the day now called Sunday, nowhere does the Bible indicate that this day of his resurrection should be commemorated as a “new” sabbath or in any other way.


Paul explains, as was mentioned my former post “there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God.” (Heb 4:9) Those who are obedient and exercise faith in Christ thereby enjoy “a sabbath resting” from their “own works,” works by means of which they formerly sought to prove themselves righteous. (Compare Ro 10:3.) Thus Paul shows that God’s sabbath, or rest, was still continuing in his day and Christians were entering into it, indicating that God’s rest day is thousands of years long.—Heb 4:3, 6, 10.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 01:48 AM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Pthena,

Thank you for taking the time to give me your perspective on things. I cannot write further at this moment, but when I get the opportunity I will reply more in detail.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by Calender
 


First let me say I haven't posted on ATS in a very long time. I'm a lurker more than I am a poster. But every once in a while there's something that just "Brings me back in" - Al Pacino The God Father. I've read some of your other post and I realize, the reason no one ever really calls you out is because no one really knows what you teach in your other post is Witness theology.It seemed like this was kind of a build up. Like this is your 3rd of 4th visit. So allow me to bring you some "New Light"
I'm a bit sarcastic/ humorous but as you said in the OP bring your "A" game. So I won't derail your thread, and I won't talk about anything you aren't representing. Anything I write isn't a personal attack on you, however I am confronting what you ARE representing. As you are claiming Witnesses to be the "True Religion". And the link you gave went to a Witness website it listed all the wrong doings in all other religions and that JW's had the answers. So here we go.

1. You're not suppose to be here. If you're truly a witness, you're not suppose to be here. Unless I'm wrong and the Witnesses loosed their chains.
2. I'm going to treat you as if you're a Witness (and we already know you are) at my door and the first thing you said is: "I'm going to tell you about the great controversy." You put the word Controversy on a conspiracy site and you know people are gonna click. So now I'm going to give everyone a chance to see how a Jehovah's Witness responds to someone who KNOWS their Bible as well as Witness Dogma.



You brought up a point about SDA prophesying about the JW's, and the complete misinterpretation of Matt.24:14. Because JW's interpret Matt 24:14 as if it has something to do with you knocking on people's doors 8 o'clock Saturday morning asking for donations. When I highly doubt that's what Jesus did. I don't remember Jesus asking for donations in exchange for his information. As if Jesus ran a carnival and the Apostles were ticket takers. There is no prophecy that door to door salesmanship is a ticket to heaven or paradise. If that were true, then the Whole New Testament would sound like this:


Matt 1:1 : 'Boy it's hot. My feet hurt. I sure do wish we could come up with some kind of system of getting things done better than we're doing now. Hopefully when Jesus gets back... IN 1914... invisibly... I hope there's some kind of exchange system in place. It could be spiritually, but it would be better financially. It could be something like what went on in Egypt... But not exactly. We'll have Elder sort all the complicated stuff out. they could be like some kind of witnesses of Jehovah or wait ... Jehovah's Witness! man I gotta write that down. We could put it in a book that would be too complex for anyone to understand but have some kind of understanding tower to lean on, To watch over us. or some kind of ... wait for it ... Watch - Tower!


The way this may have seemed completely ridiculous to anyone else but this is similar to how JW's try to interpret the Bible. You tried to give credit to another religion for something they said, as if it concerned JW's in some way. That's because you guy's are taught that everything you read, somehow confirms what you are taught at Church/temple/Kingdom Hall. Well I'll give you something that does concern you(JW's) and you don't have to read a tract or Watchtower. Here I'll even put it in multiple choice so you can do some research on your own.

Who built a Mansion in southern California for the return of the Prophets under the direction of Joseph Rutherford?
A. Mormons
B. Muslims
C. Kabbalist
D. Jehovah's Witnesses

______ were memebers of the United Nations (The Wild Beast of Revelations according to their doctrine) from the Years 1990- 2000 when they terminated their membership.
A. Mormons
B. Muslims
C. Kabbalist
D. Jehovah's Witnesses

Which religion is tied for first place with sexual abuse scandals with the Roman Catholic Church according to silentlamb.org
A. Mormons
B. Muslims
C. Kabbalist
D. Jehovah's Witnesses


This is the religion you're trying to represent. I figured you forgot to mention this stuff, so I decided to add it for you. I know how busy you guys can get knocking on people's doors and preaching the good word. Oh, and I thought just for fun I'd throw in Luke 10:7 NLT, You can read it in your big reference Bible "Don't move around from home to home. Stay in one place eating and drinking what they provide. Don't hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve their pay."

Don't move from home to home? Man that really puts a damper in your door knocking thing doesn't it? Feel free to reply as I will be checking on here periodically.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 04:48 AM
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...and for the Christians who are saying: "wow that guy really gets it..." he's in a cult, what's your excuse? He reads 50 books that teach him to be wrong. I mean sure his religion is started by a guy who's got a 10 ft pyramid on his grave. and sure you wanna punch them in the face when they're knocking on you door 8 o'clock Saturday morning asking for eggs and bacon.I mean who doesn't? You guys trying to straighten out the JW's is even worse! you guys read 1 book and still get it wrong. You guys got birthday parties, Christmas, fat guys in red suits, Rabbit's crapping out eggs. The part about him knocking on peoples doors might have been a misinterpretation. BUT IT'S STILL IN THE BOOK. You guys came up with the "Rapture" from some dude that was pissed and don't even get me into Dante's Inferno and hell fire. He's surrounded by people who can't tell him the truth. You guys backstroke in the truth all day. This is just in case you Christians felt left out. I decided to go the way of the God of Abraham and kill 2 birds with one stone. The only people who should be laughing about this is the Muslims, the Jews, Hindu's, Agnostics and Atheist. Everyone else let the frowny faces begin



P.S. You alllllll got it wrong. If you don't believe me try to indoctrinate me back. You can put up allllll your scriptures, but the bible isn't the boogey man for me, sorry. So don't bother with the hell fire and brimstone routine.
edit on 15-12-2010 by Illumin Not I because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 04:56 AM
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reply to post by Calender
 

Not being either a Seventh Day Adentist or a Jehovah's Witness, I agree with the OP in the area of Sabbath observance.
The key passage for me is actually Romans ch7 v6;
"But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit".
I'm convinced that when Paul says "we're not serving the old written code", he's referring to the Mosaic Law in its entirety.

Does that mean that we're free from the operation of the 10 commandments? Well, yes and no.
I think the true inference is that we're free from the 10 commandments as laws of Moses. But we're living "in the new life of the Spirit", which means that we're not free from the guidance of the Spirit, and the Spirit may be guiding us in the same direction as the commandments.
I believe Paul would say something like;
"I still avoid murder, I still avoid theft, I still avoid adultery.
But I avoid these things because the Spirit tells me to avoid them, not because the Law of Moses tells me to."

But the human mind is much more comfortable with graspable rules, so the church has backed away from treating the Law quite as radically as this. I'm not sure that many people since Paul's time have been able to share Paul's confidence that they were being guided by the Holy Spirit (and the church wasn't going to trust them if they did). So the traditional working compromise has developed that "the moral laws are still valid, especially the 10 commandments".

But the early church were willing to abandon seventh day observance, and take up the practice of celebrating the resurrection of Christ on "the eighth day of the week, the eighth day of creation". If they believed that the Holy Spirit was comfortable with what they were doing, then Paul's teaching on "not being subject to the written code, but living in the new life of the Spirit" would back them up.



edit on 15-12-2010 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by Calender
 

If Israel had already been observing the Sabbath, it could not have served as a reminder of their deliverance from Egypt by Jehovah, as shown at Deuteronomy 5:15.

This argument of yours I am quoting above is completely wrong.
Maybe this is why I did not recognize it as being an argument against
the Sabbath that I am familiar with, because it does not help your
position and I would take it more as reinforcing my view, that the
Sabbath existed previous to the giving of the Ten Commandments at
Sinai. Remember my argument, that the Hebrews were under a ten day
week under the Egyptians? That is what God is saying in your verse.
"Remember the Sabbath because that is why I brought you out of Egypt."
God is not saying, "I just now invented the Sabbath as a memorial to my
bringing you out of Egypt."
I think you need to get in a time machine and go back and tell Paul that
he does not need to keep the Sabbath.
Did it ever occur to anyone that having a day off from work is a blessing?
It would if you were in one of the Chinese sweatshops where you are
virtually chained to your work station. You would be sitting there thinking,
"I wish God would intervene and give us a day off out of every seven."

edit on 15-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by Calender
 

The Scriptures plainly state that Christ’s sacrifice “abolished . . . the Law of commandments consisting in decrees” and that God “blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees . . . and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.” It was the complete Mosaic Law that was “abolished,” “blotted out,” taken “out of the way.” (Eph 2:13-15; Col 2:13, 14) Consequently, the whole system of Sabbaths, be they days or years, was brought to its end with the rest of the Law by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This explains why Christians can esteem “one day as all others,” whether it be a sabbath or any other day, with no fear of judgment by another. (Ro 14:4-6; Col 2:16) Paul made the following expression concerning those scrupulously observing “days and months and seasons and years”: “I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you.”—Ga 4:10, 11.
Did you copy and paste this from a JW web site or something?
Just wondering because that's what it looks like to me. Aren't you supposed to give some sort of attribution or at least identify it as being a quote from somewhere? It looks like a canned answer. I will give a quote and let's see if you can identify who this is talking:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Did Jesus (in case you did not guess right) put an expiration date on this? Don't you think that if it was all going to be done away with in a month or something, he would not have bothered saying all that?
What Paul was talking about, in the verses referred to in the quote from your post, was the wall of separation between the people who were Jews, and the gentiles coming into the faith of Jesus. The decrees and commandments were the stumbling blocks from the peoples joining into a new body of the church.
edit on 15-12-2010 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:40 AM
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I was talking to an SDA person the other day, and it seems that they want to cling to parts of the Mosaic Law but not all of it. For me the way I see it, it's all or nothing if you want to follow it, but really even the most radical Jewish groups don't, otherwise they would be still stoning people and sacrificing animals.

The Mosaic Law isn't some halfway house, the Jews had to do it all to be blessed by God before Jesus came, they couldn't just pick and choose from it. If you have studied it, it wasn't an easy law to follow, I am thankful Jesus replaced it with two basic principles that cover it all.
edit on 15-12-2010 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 

I am thankful Jesus replaced it with two basic principles that cover it all.


Do you have a verse for that?

I didn't think so.

Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment."
Jesus did not say, "I am giving you the replacement for all other commandments."



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 11:34 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 
Blue_Jay,

I know SDA's pretty well as I live amongst them and my wife is one. They separate the Mosaic laws from the Royal law. They always have. In the beginning of Adventism they were mostly of a legalist nature of the Royal law but the messages of Jones and Wagoner and EGW changed that from the the law, the law until is was as dry as the hills of Gilboa to righteousness by faith. Well most came out of the ditch of legalism and right on across the road into the ditch of liberalism. Some hold on to the middle of the road and are mostly gone into independant ministries now. Yes there is a few die hards come on down to today that are legalistic.

I know that it is being taught in a lot of their schools now, just believe and you are saved. There has been a great falling away I find in all denominational tax compliant churhes. The true Adventist message has a lot going for it, but few of them are of it anymore. EGW didn't agree with some of the theology that came in and battled hard to get it straight. However she was not conference president and not the editor of their church paper that taught the laity. She got some things across but being a woman in those days she didn't command the respect she should've gotten. Her books were compiled and in some cases made light of what she taught. Her first version of the Great Controversy was the best edition but they thought it was too strong and worded too direct. She lost any say in things pretty much since 1903 and that is when they set up the General Conference as kings. I find the church began to go down hill after 1888 when so many took the message of righteousness by faith too far the wrong way and escalated down from that time.

Paul makes it clear to me in chapter nine of Heb. 9: the ordinaces he is talking about, the blood ordinances. These are the Mosaic laws nailed to His cross because he fulfilled them, His Blood is what it all pointed to.

The ten commandments stand as the law of love and that's what they are. If we Truly love God we keep the first four freely and if we Trully love our fellow man we keep the next six freely and either case that law is now in our hearts if we have the indwelling Saviour which is a heart of love the hope of Glory.

That is the crux of the whole matter. -
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Because I love Him above all and my first allegeance is to Him I will "Remember" because for one He first loved me and then shed His blood for me, and all, that we might live, eternally. He simply states,- KJV -

Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That recurring cycle of sevens was instituted before earth and was carried into earth in sync. with Heaven and will continue throughout all eternity. It, the Sabbath was kept in Heaven before earth Enoch reveals and in sync. on earth.

Folks the Great Controversy the OP, Calender has brought to view, is still a great read regardless which edition you read, 1884, 1888, 1889.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by Calender
 


I think a key passage to the controversy will be “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark. 2:27).


But if you are interested in an analysis about Sabbath, here is a link with additional info.The Christian Sabbath : examined proved applied written By: Brian Schwertley.

The Analysis covers the following aspects.

Introduction

1. The Sabbath as creation ordinance
2. The Sabbath is part of the ten commandments
3. The Sabbath and the prophets

The Sabbath is Binding in the New Covenant Era

1. The day of Christ’s resurrection victory
2. The universal practice of the New Testament church
3. The Lord’s day

Theological Reasons for First-Day Observance

1. Re-creation
2. Deuteronomy 5:15 and the new covenant Lord’s day
3. Hebrews 4:9-10 and the Sabbath

Christ’s Teaching on the Sabbath

1. Acts of necessity
2. Religious works
3. Works of mercy
4. Lord of the Sabbath

The Different Grounds of the Law and the Sabbath

The Meaning of the Sabbath

1. The Sabbath rest
2. Works of necessity and mercy permitted
3. The Sabbath and modern industrial civilization
4. Preparing for the Lord’s day
5. The time of the Lord’s day
6. To whom does the command apply?
7. The six days of labor

The Sanctifying of the Sabbath

1. Public worship
2. Family worship
3. Private worship
4. The new covenant holy day
5. Is the Puritan sabbath too strict?

Conclusion

Hope that helps a bit.

Peace


edit on 15-12-2010 by Seed76 because: (no reason given)





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