Guns in the UK? No !!!

reply to post by schuyler

So what has the UK done? Banned guns and now they're getting robbed and burgled to death. After all, criminals know thay can't be stopped. This common sense idea that the UK is civilized, but the US, with all its guns, is not, is simply untrue. The UK is the most violent country in the EU by far. It even exceeds South Africa. The US is benign in comparison with a violent crime rate about 1/5th that of the UK.

Steady on Schuyler. We aren't being robbed and burgled to death. Criminals are stopped. Our jails are approaching similar % population levels as yours. The prison-industrial complex is alive and growing here too.

You're a bright guy and should know that comparing statistics across diverse countries isn't really accurate. Some nations keep better records than others and those stats are always politicised.

I'm not going to turn this into a debate over the UK or the USA being more violent, but that point you make is open to question.

reply to post by Xemplar


We did indeed used to have the right to own guns and still had relatively little gun crime. That changed in about 1920 though due to a lot of reasons, but the main reason is exactly as you stated, to keep the population from uprising

The legislation had less to do with armed robbery and more to do with the Lloyd George Government’s fear that a combination of disaffected soldiers returning from the Western Front, the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia and the surge in trade union membership might be harbingers of trouble. It was thus better if firearms were monopolised by the State and the more responsible classes.

link

Originally posted by kevinunknown
reply to post by schuyler

 

I don’t want to get into a argument hear, I am having quite a few just now and could do without another. But really don’t trust the daily mail as anyone form the UK will tell you they massively exaggerate everything.

Do they massively exaggerate statistics? Do they fake the statistics altogether? The UK crime rate for violent crime is 2,034 per 100,000 residents. Fact or fiction? The UK is number 1 in the top ten list. The US didn't even make the top ten. Is this list fact or fiction? Statistics are difficult to compare, I know, but these were compiled by UK people. But these statistics are not just slightly off or slightly different years. This is a MASSIVE difference that needs to be explained. And the fact is, all over the world, the same trends are apparent, including in the US.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

Do you feel safer now?

Originally posted by splittheatom
You say that you don't think you could go out and get a gun tonight, and your reason is because no body has them?

I think you are very misinformed.

There are sheer amounts of illegal fire-arms in Britain.

This article for example:

www.independent.co.uk...

That was from 5 years ago, and things are only getting worse over here.

Personally I think we should have to right to own guns. The police have them, the criminals have them, so why can't the average Joe own one?

edit on 14/12/2010 by splittheatom because: link

Because the average Joe is the person that the government wants to control.....

they are the easiest.

Originally posted by schuyler
So what's the violent crime rate like in the UK? According to your own Daily Mail the crime rate in the UK is higher than in the US. The UK has 2,034 offenses per 100,000 people compared to the US at 466.

So what has the UK done? Banned guns and now they're getting robbed and burgled to death. After all, criminals know thay can't be stopped.

Exactly. Plus in the UK we can't attack intruders in our own homes.

From what I have read automatic rifles and short barreled guns were banned in the UK after a few separate incidents of lunatics shooting up schools, such as the Dunblane shooting.

What I don't understand is more people die from events such as car crashes, yet driving hasn't been totally outlawed, so why are guns after a few incidents?

What about the guy who shot students at Virginia Tech a few years ago. Gun's weren't banned in the US over that.

Actually wikipedia has a list of all school shootings from every continent. America has the highest, yet are still allowed firearms. en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Xemplar
........ It's been done before against Great Britain I think that's mainly why the UK doesn't want their people and subjects to have them.

When?

reply to post by schuyler
I live in the UK and one must remember we do not have any laws that let us defend our homes, unlike the US. Not only that we have a very active do-gooder regime in defending the criminal. Do not anyone quote "we can use reasonable force" to defend ourselves. In the UK even the police often as not sides with the ciminals albeit back-handedly. From personal experience a burgler(felon) gets injured raiding a garden shed and the sheds owner gets prosecuted for leaving dangerous objects about. The do-gooders still control the stuation that prison is a reforming institution. Though not a criminal myself I know a few and they all look on prison as a holiday camp. Anyone from the US must realise that UK prisons are not even in the same galaxy as the US prisons for punishment. God forbid you can'nt hurt a criminal or even punish him it's against his human rights.

Originally posted by splittheatom
What about the guy who shot students at Virginia Tech a few years ago. Gun's weren't banned in the US over that.

Excellent point! Virginia Tech is a "Gun Free Zone." There's a sign that says you cannot bring a gun onto campus. What that sign really says is, "Defenseless victims herein."

These crime statistics MUST be explained. You can't ignore them and pretend they are not there. Don't go telling me "well, they exaggerate" or "You know statistics can be manipulated." Sure they can. How, exactly? Proclaiming that these statistics are exaggerated or manipulated is a lame excuse. That is not an argument. It fails. The statistics show that the UK is the most violent country in Europe. It's even more violent than South Africa and FAR more violent than the USA. Perhaps you could make the case that guns are not a part of the equation. Give it a try, but SOMETRHING is causing this. What is it?

Even if the UK is more violent than anywhere else, that does not mean we should have guns, as that means more idiots would be shooting each other.

I mean just look at gun-nut America. School shootings, mothers executing their son's at firing ranges, college shootings, church shootings, religious idiots shooting doctors, ex-army vets going crazy and shooting bystanders.

No thanks.

Just because you equip the population with guns does not mean you are any safer, it just means more fools have access to dangerous tools.

The UK is FINE without guns, and despite what a few xenophobic Americans think, we British are NOT going to be rounded up by the government any time soon. The Government is scared of us.

Which says a little bit more about us, if they fear us without weapons, then surely we put up more of a threat to them unarmed than the Americans do with guns.

Obviously i respect America's right to bear arms, but we simply don't need them.

peace.

reply to post by mr-lizard

The Government is scared of us.

I am glad that I wasn't drinking anything, or I would have needed to get a new keyboard.

reply to post by schuyler


As I stated in my post in the other current ATS thread on this topic, www.abovetopsecret.com... , comparing UK society with US society on this subject is akin to comparing apples and oranges.

What's right for the US is not necessarily right for the UK.

Large sections of UK society are inherently very violent and confrontational and you are far more likely to witness a fist fight in these places than anywhere else I have travelled to, and I've been around the block a few times.

Any relaxation of the UK's gun laws will result in an increase in gun related injuries and deaths here in the UK.
The vast majority do not want any relaxation in UK gun laws.

That does not mean that it is right for the US to follow suit.
Gun ownership is a part of US culture and psyche in a way that it never will be here in the UK.
The US should do as is right for the US.

But we should all recognise and respect our differences.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Even if the UK is more violent than anywhere else, that does not mean we should have guns, as that means more idiots would be shooting each other.

I mean just look at gun-nut America. School shootings, mothers executing their son's at firing ranges, college shootings, church shootings, religious idiots shooting doctors, ex-army vets going crazy and shooting bystanders.

Too funny. And yet "gun nut America" is a FAR safer place to be than the UK. How do you explain the fact (and you can look this up) that in areas of the US that have strict gun laws violent crime is greater than in places in the US that have lenient gun laws? How do you explain the fact (and you can look this up) that as gun ownership increases in the US crime has decreased?

In the same breath that you admit the UK is more violent than anywhere else you call America gun-nut crazy. Hello? Do you think there might be a correlation here? If America is so violent, why does it not even make the top ten list? We're talking violent crime here, not petty theft.

Look, I am not suggesting that the UK should suddenly invoke a 2nd amendment. Far be it from me to even suggest telling you what to do. That's your problem. On the other hand I have no idea how "xenophobic Americans" got thrown into the midst here. What I am saying is that you are ignoring some pretty important information here. I'd much rather walk down the streets of New York than the streets of London because staitistically speaking, I'm a lot safer.

reply to post by schuyler
Indeed!
With all our guns and all of our nuts, we should have killed each other off long ago, one would think.

Star on your last.

reply to post by shauny


shauny you live in scotland, have you ever been to glasgow the place makes detroit look like a playground, check the murder rate and many cities in england have very bad gun problems like birmingham, manchester and london. also news from the north of england has to involve child killings, people shooting police(raoul moat) or gazza(raoul moat again) to make the news.
london is a more dangerous city than new york and manchester and birmingham are more dangerous than london and i think glasgow had more murders last year than the rest of the country combined but i could be a bit off on this final stat as i am going from memory(i have a bad one).

infact to top this all off, hand guns where banned in the uk because of a scottish peodophile walking into a scottish school (dunblaine)with a couple of guns and massacering a load of children and teachers

reply to post by schuyler


Statistically, if I was a victim of a violent crime in the UK I would most likely be mugged or physically assaulted.
Whilst less likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the US, if I was I would more likely be shot and either severely wounded or killed.
That is the big difference.
Beat up or shot?

reply to post by Freeborn
Or you could say ...

Shot in America...... Beaten to death in England.

Putting it that way, I'll take the shot.

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Even if the UK is more violent than anywhere else, that does not mean we should have guns, as that means more idiots would be shooting each other.

I mean just look at gun-nut America. School shootings, mothers executing their son's at firing ranges, college shootings, church shootings, religious idiots shooting doctors, ex-army vets going crazy and shooting bystanders.

Too funny. And yet "gun nut America" is a FAR safer place to be than the UK. How do you explain the fact (and you can look this up) that in areas of the US that have strict gun laws violent crime is greater than in places in the US that have lenient gun laws? How do you explain the fact (and you can look this up) that as gun ownership increases in the US crime has decreased?

In the same breath that you admit the UK is more violent than anywhere else you call America gun-nut crazy. Hello? Do you think there might be a correlation here? If America is so violent, why does it not even make the top ten list? We're talking violent crime here, not petty theft.

Look, I am not suggesting that the UK should suddenly invoke a 2nd amendment. Far be it from me to even suggest telling you what to do. That's your problem. On the other hand I have no idea how "xenophobic Americans" got thrown into the midst here. What I am saying is that you are ignoring some pretty important information here. I'd much rather walk down the streets of New York than the streets of London because staitistically speaking, I'm a lot safer.

Yes, you are right, the UK does top most independent lists of violent countries but it is interesting to note that while you constantly remind us that you are much more likely to get attacked or beaten up in the UK, you have not once even come close to mentioning that the USA's murder rates are absolutely obscene and completely dwarf other 1st World countries murder rates. Murder by fire arm alone, in the US, is several times more than the total numbers of murders with any weapon in other similar countries, like the UK (I am obviously talking per capita).

reply to post by Freeborn


Revolutionary war.
I'm sure there are other times.

I think that you can pretty much find the answer to why the UK doesn't have guns right here in this thread, it's the same reason we let the government put cameras on every corner. give local authorities the right to read our private emails and enact every other bit of insidious social engineering that is performed on the working classes in this country.

A lot of people in the UK are delusional about their social status and imagine themselves to be somehow in a different part of society to the other people that the media brand as "chavs" "youths" and "criminals"

They take the view that there are whole massive parts of the population that just have to be controlled somehow or else they would all kill everyone in their beds and in this way they are tricked into letting the government take more or less any action it wants to control the general population without realising they are part of the very population that is being controlled.

They are controlled by fear generated by the image of a huge criminal underclass that the government is somehow protecting us all from

reply to post by TheFallOfRa
I hope i never live to see firearms legalised in the UK. I believe knife crime is a serious issue here however.