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Why do Americans need guns? Rip UP the Second Amendment, problem solved.

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posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by Brood
 


To an extent, I agree with some of your points.


Our country is sliding ever so much faster to what it was never intended.

Just one thing.

Dont bash all of our troops. Many may very well be asleep. Most believe they are doing what is correct. In many cases I believe they still are. I do believe they are being horribly misused though.

I wont tolerate the "baby killer" taunts thrown at our troops as they were during 'Nam.




posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:33 PM
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And now we get the by now all too famliar anti-UK bollocks coming out with absolute cod# statements like 'you'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for us', 'you gave up your right to bear arms' and the best ever yet 'Britain was trying to get everyone to worship The Catholic way'.

Do American's have any other source for history other than Hollywood fairy tales?

Fortunately there are some Americans here who have some integrity and credability.

And people wonder why some of us are despairing at the standards to which ATS is slipping.

Still, the bairns will be in bed soon as it's a school night and hopefully the adults will soon start posting,
edit on 14/12/10 by Freeborn because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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Instead of a civil discussion, the gun crazy nutbags have come out of the woodwork to bash the OP. Typical, so very typical.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by Advantage
 


Thats why you need a mosin nagant and practice. The mosin laughs at modern military armor, Our soldiers in Afghanistan fear it's mighty power.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by Brood
How bout Americans stop shooting eachother for reasons as sad as stepping on your property (stink eye at Texas)... and I'll see this as a non-issue. Until then I'll reserve my respect for those who have been shot by their fellow Americans, and rip it away from those who complacently pretend it is not an issue.


Senseless shootings take place each and every day all around the world, no matter what sort of 'gun laws' or lack thereof exist or are in place in that particular locale.

People kill People:


The ability and self-afforded right to defend one's person or domicile from damage, injury or death transcends the whole of time.

Firearms are merely a tool utilized by some to ensure that right and ability.

As with any 'tool' there will be those who use such in a manner unintended, during the commission of a crime, attack, homicide or suicide even.

rope
hammers
axes
knives
2x4s
screwdrivers
you name it..

ALL available at the local hardware store.


The real facts of the matter, imo, are...

- outlawing firearms would merely disarm an otherwise law-abiding populace.
- criminal elements would still have no problem whatsoever obtaining weaponry.
- 'gun-related' crimes and incidents would drop, if at all, insignificantly.
- theft, burglary, robbery, 'held at gunpoint' type incidents would rise significantly.
- suicide rates would remain about the same (if they're gonna do it, they'll find a way)

No. Blanket removal of Rights afforded by and protected under the Constitution is not the answer ... nor even a consideration.

[ETA]
I have merely a deer rifle handed down from my father, a single-shot .410 for rabbit, squirrel, vermin and a .22 for whatever.

Why should I Not be allowed to have, possess and/or use them as they were intended to by design?
edit on 12/14/2010 by 12m8keall2c because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by 12m8keall2c
 


Look at those outrageous numbers!

The gun laws must be incredibly lax in those top ten countries or perhaps non-existant.

No way they could have oppressively strict laws or even bans. No way what-so-ever.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:43 PM
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We tend to define reality through our current experiences and state of existence which in the end, may in fact, not be typical to the human condition or even historically common.

Modern western culture and political structure may seem robust and permanent, and since it is the best form we (humans) have ever created I hope with some adjustment it is, but it is highly likely that it will not exist in its current form forever.

Historically EVERY SINGLE governmental form has eventually resulted in population oppression and tyranny or chaos and collapse. That's not very good odds.

It's also why we own firearms.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:45 PM
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Well I'm out of this lame thread, boohoo I still have my guns. Good night



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
And now we get the by now all too famliar anti-UK bollocks coming out with absolute cod# statements like 'you'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for us', 'you gave up your right to bear arms' and the best ever yet 'Britain was trying to get everyone to worship The Catholic way'.

Do American's have any other source for history other than Hollywood fairy tales?

Fortunately there are some Americans here who have some integrity and credability.

And people wonder why some of us are despairing at the standards to which ATS is slipping.

Still, the bairns will be in bed soon as it's a school night and hopefully the adults will soon start posting soon.
edit on 14/12/10 by Freeborn because: grammar


Looks like the country bashing cuts both ways. I certainly dont feel that way.. and sadly yes, movies are about all thats to be had as far as education. The schools here are pathetically biased and leave out any real meat of history. If people arent inclined to search it out on their own they believe the propaganda. The fact is that we are no longer great.. we have lost our way. We were so busy being free and coolest that we allowed ourselves to be programmed and used. Not really any different than you in the UK have. I think that as with face to face conversations Ive had in other countries with their citizens so too would you see a different side of Americans if you were face to face.
There are by far more similarities in us as people and not our governments than many of us here realize.

The only real thing we have going for us is that we are a young country.. we have yet to taste the struggles you in the UK and others in the world have experienced. We have a framework.. for now.. of a constitution and etc that we CAN use to change things.. if we desire to. Like Ive said though, I wonder where that desire is or if the American people of today have the stomach for it. No one has taught most of us the idea that there are initial losses when working toward great gains. For as long as we have the right to bear arms, we should ALL strive to use the right properly.. and when the time comes to use it effectively. Not only for ourselves, but for any person who needs it. I would love to be that place once again that people desire to immigrate to.. not for the welfare but for the freedom. I have no other country but this one... Im indigenous... so I figure I better do my part here because I dont have a genetic motherland other than this place. LOL!



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown

I got into this debate recently but it seemed a little bit of topic so I thought I would take a risk and write a thread myself asking the above question “why do Americans need guns?”

Now to me I can understand why a farmer might own a few shotguns or a hunter might own a few hunting rifles but why does anyone need a semi-automatic, unless their objective is to kill. To me guns are inherently evil objects that have been designed to kill our fellow man and therefore are evil as is to use a gun to kill. Further to this there have been a number of high profile shootings in America were a gun man has committed multiple homicide or gang warfare has resulted in innocents being killed. Now with that in mind how can you possibly say that the right to bear arms is justified? Yes some people need guns to do their jobs such as game keepers, farmers and law enforcement but why does Joe the plumber really need one.

The argument is always that it’s for self defence, that way if someone pulls a gun on a knife on you, you can protect yourself. It’s a hard one to argue against, but surly if it were the case that gun’s were outlawed or heavily regulated it would lead to a overall reduction in the number of firearms owned and therefore the odds of someone pulling a gun on you would be greatly reduced therefore you wouldn’t have to own a fire arm and the odds would fall further. In any case you can never be sure it’s going to help your odds, if two gun men mug you or break into your house you’re already on the losing side. Now baring in mind that there are almost enough firearms America for every citizen the robbers are going to know you have a gun in your house, they are going to be prepared and have the element of surprise on their side.

Now am sorry to spit on your 2nd amendment right, but for me self defence is not a valid argument for defending the 2nd amendment. Also the ability to carry arms has been severely restricted by the Gun-Free School zones act of 1990 signed by Gorge H W Bush, which is ironic considering that 41% of republicans own a firearm compared to only 23% of democrats so kudos to Bush. This does mean though that as a law abiding citizen in a town or city you really can’t carry a gun knowing that you are not breaking a law. As such you would be better just not carrying one, so again if you get attacked by someone you shouldn’t have a gun to defend yourself in the first place because to be carrying said firearm you would be breaking the law.

The line that I love is this “we have places to keep people who can’t use their guns properly, they’re called prisons”. Very true, but you also have places called hospitals and mortuaries filled with the victims of the scum your keeping in prison, and thousands of homes full of grieving families. Would it not just be better to ban or regulate these guns out right that way no idiots going to prison and cheaper hospital bills and less tears.
Then we get to my favourite, the line that all gun loving conspiracy theorists loves. “ I need my guns to protect myself for when the government turn on its people and try to through us all in the FEMA camps”. If that is your reason for keeping a gun, then you shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun based on your sanity. This fantasy that one day the feds are going to come knocking at your door to put you on the FEMA bus, then you, in a spectacular move pull out your Glock and take them all out then spend the rest of your life like the incarnation of the movie Rambo: First Blood, is just a fantasy no more. It’s not going to happen and even if it does your guns won’t do you any good, you will either die or be put in the camps so again I don’t give that fantasy any credibility as a reason to keep a locker full of AR-15’s in bedroom.

So can someone please tell me why you need a gun? In the UK I know no one who owns a gun, and no one I know has ever been disadvantaged because of this why is it that the worlds “super power” is any different, Gun Laws are out of date, rip up the second amendment and join the 21st century .



The fact is, we have the drug wars, mexican cartel and beyond the gang wars, the young people who rival each other, criminals running rampit. Our jsutice system release the highest level criminals, ( like sexual predators who rape and or murder rape children babies ) onto the streets to re reape again. we have mass murderes who do horrific crimes such as, mutillations. We here have horribble terrible crimes. Also some of our law officials are out of hand. I personally would never ever give up my arms. I safely have my arms locked in a safe, where if needed I can quickly get to them. Then lastly, for myself, with this war on terror going on, many many many of us here in america KNOW for a fact we have many many many sleeper cells hidden throughout our land, do you think we are not prepared?



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown

also, you are a perfect example of why the right to freedom of speech should be heavily regulated, just because you have a right doesn’t make it righteous.


You're joking right? Just because you don't agree with what someone says, they should not have the right to say it?

Well, kind sir/maddam. I don't agree with what you have said, but I shall defend to the death, your right to say it!

Free speech does NOT always mean pretty speech. But we have the right to state our opinion, with out fear of persecution. If you disagree with the right to free speech. I recommend you go read up on the people who fought against the tyranny from Britain during the revolutionary war... WITH GUNS.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by SeventhSeal
Instead of a civil discussion, the gun crazy nutbags have come out of the woodwork to bash the OP. Typical, so very typical.


and your statement above is civil? Do you even realize how often you contradict yourself? Or do you even think before you speak?

Just because people do not agree with each other, doesnt make either one of them any more crazy or sane then the other, its just a difference in opinion.

Its people that continue the rhetoric that you keep spewing that causes the civil discourse



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:50 PM
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Tobacco use is the single most preventable cause of death in the United States. Each year in the United States, cigarette smoking and exposure to secondhand smoke causes 443,000—or 1 in 5 deaths. Economic losses are also staggering. Smoking-caused diseases result in $96 billion in health care costs annually.






•According to the Alcohol-Related Disease Impact (ARDI) tool, from 2001–2005, there were approximately 79,000 deaths annually attributable to excessive alcohol use. In fact, excessive alcohol use is the 3rd leading lifestyle-related cause of death for people in the United States each year.





Impaired Driving
Every day, 32 people in the United States die, in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver. This amounts to one death every 45 minutes. The annual cost of alcohol-related crashes totals more than $51 billion.




Crime & Self defense
Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms.

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year./ex]



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:51 PM
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IMHO
The thing that the anti gun non americans don't get is this
unlike every where else basically,
the US hasn't quite been conqured / subjugated yet

Though the tipping point is very very close
and it could go either way

But if the light goes out down there,
it goes out everywhere
edit on 14-12-2010 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-12-2010 by Danbones because: grammer



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by kevinunknown
reply to post by projectvxn
 


Well yes that is my 5 year goal.

No its not,

The point is you really don’t have freedom of speech anymore, if the government passes a law saying that you can’t say something then you don’t have freedom of speech.

You don’t need guns, no one has answered my question yet.

And I don’t see the government coming to put you into a FEMA camp anytime soon


no one will ever take the americans guns out of our hands. You see my foriegn friend that attempt would surely cause american style lol jihad. We americans are very tolerant and appear to be somewhat whimpy, but!!!! do not mess with our arms....



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by Advantage
 


It wasn't aimed at all the Americans who have contributed to this thread.


It is just becoming so predictable that as soon as a Brit disagrees then the same old nonsensical fallacies get trotted out.
And the blinkered insularity and ignorance of history and the world outside of the US shown by so many Americans never ceases to amaze.

Neither of our great countries are perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination, but when compared to most we aren't that bad and the world would be a much worse place without us.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by 12m8keall2c
 


reply to post by thisguyrighthere
 


Before you get more proud of yourselves.... look back at that chart and take a gander at which of those countries that made the list are considered "developed" countries and which ones aren't. Who's at the top of this list now?

So shallow.

Here's a hint: the U.S. is the only one over 1% that's officially considered a developed country and it's above 3%.
edit on 14-12-2010 by Brood because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 07:06 PM
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Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives

A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).6 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."7

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.8 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9

* Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and

* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union -- having three times received the "Safest State Award."12

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period -- thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport.15

C. Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.16

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.17

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.18

Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.19

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.20

Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."21

* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."22

* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."23

gunowners.org...







edit on 14-12-2010 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by FrancoUn-American
reply to post by Advantage
 


Thats why you need a mosin nagant and practice. The mosin laughs at modern military armor, Our soldiers in Afghanistan fear it's mighty power.


I pray it never comes to that.. some might salivate at the prospect of war or civil uprising... I do not. I wouldnt shirk my duty, but Id be damned if I would ever take any pride or feel anything other than horror if I had to fire on my fellow Americans.. sleeping soldiers or not... even if they were firing at me. I dont take any pleasure in having to consider killing a human being even if it was a crackhead criminal wanting to rape and kill me.. even with having to prepare for the event Id need to protect my kids. My deal was always observing and seeing what would give me the best odds of survival given what I was most likely to encounter. Certainly not reveling in my big gun and shootin someone cause Im cool
Ive always really felt ( through personal experiences) that those who revel in war have usually never made it out of their little safe bubble.
Its a necessary evil. I can not see any happiness to be had in having to overthrow my govt if it was unjust and oppressive. Id again not shirk my duty, but never feel any thrill concerning it.

I doubt too many here have seen death up close and personal. I have.. and have been elbow deep in a strangers guts. I feel absolutely NOTHING positive about having this as a probability hanging over my head. If the Brits can pull this off.. an unarmed and safe citizenry..... absolutely more power to them. Here in the US... its simply not possible. We are not an island that has a low population. I ttuly hope that their future is not damaged too much by this disarming and false feeling of safety. They are much closer to our common enemy than we are.

I LOVE the idea of peace.. but Im also perceptive enough to recognize we are a violent species from birth.Just like Im an egotistical elitist bitch, I have fought my entire life to control my inner meanie. Im doing a pretty good job I think! We should do this on a national basis as well. We can always strive for peace, but we will never really attain it. Until the aliens or whomever come down and PWN us.. I guess we will always be this way.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 07:10 PM
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reply to post by Revealation
 


Maybe you didn't realize that those things weren't specifically designed to kill people?



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