How Would You End All Religions on This Planet?

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Indeed.

However, do we know all the links? Do those exist before they are proven?

Holding science in a regard such as "it proves what is true" is just as dangerous as doing that with religion.

[rant] So, what they tell you is true? Honestly, i feel science has turned into a sham. One where atheism is -fantastic- to the cause of blind information dissemination. Science is tricky in that it is looked at with such validity, but it is under the influence of humans, just as organized religion. Either way, conspiracy theories aside (it HAS been interesting to see the rise of atheism in light of how much control organized science has over human perception), what is out there, and also within, are beyond our definitions of it. No matter how many numbers, algorithms, and experiments we do, they are nothing but a sticker on the glass.

You say you are set on your beliefs, thats too bad.. So many religious people are... (tongue in cheek comment)

reply to post by sinohptik


As an atheist i have a lack of a belief. Theists propose the concept that a divine intelligent being created our existence (and in most cases they believe this being intervenes in human affairs) They make a positive assertion on the nature of reality, of the causation of reality. They deal in revealed wisdom. This cannot be, they are as agnostic as us.

They don't use science, they use faith. How can this be respected or go unchallenged, why should it expect respect?

Again, you bring up "was the earth round before...." Yes of course the earth was round before it was common human understanding (and considered "fact") that it was flat. We were ignorant from the TRUTH that the scientists and thinkers were yet to uncover.

Similarly, the earth still orbitted the sun despite the fact we thought it was vice versa, we were ignorant from the truth.

Now we have absolute proof using sattelite imagery that the earth is round, and we have the nessary records of planety rotation and our relation to the stars to prove that the earth orbits the Sun. That's wont change.

It's as if you think i have some sort of problem, a contrarian complex, i'm just arguing for the sake of "hurting feelings" or i'm just to proud to admit the evident nature of "GOD".

What other questions do you have? I'm happy to answer them honestly like i have done so far.

Holding science in a regard such as "it proves what is true" is just as dangerous as doing that with religion.

READ MY FIRST PARAGRAPH. Science uncovers the mystery of nature by testing, what's your argument, what's your point?

SCIENCE IS MORE THAN HAPPY TO ADMIT WHEN IT IS WRONG, THAT'S WHAT MAKES A GOOD SCIENTIST, PROGRESSION OF KNOWLEDGE, UNTIL WE HAVE EVIDENCE OF SOMETHING SO THAT WE CAN DEMONSTRATE IN AN EXPERIMENT.

HE DEVOTES 20 YEARS OF HIS LIFE, ONLY TO BE PROVED WRONG, BY ANOTHER SCIENTIST WITH A BETTER THEORY.

IF SOMEONE STATES THE EARTH IS ROUND, AND IT TURNS OUT THAT IT IS, THERE NEED BE NO FURTHER DEBATE ON THE MATTER, ITS NOT GOING TO BE REVEALED THAT IT IS A TRIANGLE.

Please read what i say carefully, you keep asking the same questions, only re-phrased.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
But of course, I realize that's not exactly what you're asking. The trouble is, the agnostic and atheist crowd has already been put in a "box", by YOU. You ask that we get outside the box, but would it be too much to ask, can we come out now?

Yes. Come out come out wherever you are!

I don't have the time to rehash it, but the framework was already covered in that post I made starting with the video of a guy named Adi Da Samraj, and then with the addition of the quantum scientific theory of the Absolute.

Put that together, have a felt experience or a "gnosis" of it, and that's the frame, the "out of the box frame of reference", out of a box, and into the apex of a triangle that is..!

here it was

post by NewAgeMan

reply to post by NewAgeMan


What the poster was saying (i think) is that Atheists and Agnostics are already condemned by your prejudices over us "sinning" non-believers. Seen through the eyes of a believer it would seem proposterus not to be cheerleader for the greatest dictator of all history, who CREATED history.

Who created all the failed star systems, and the earth in which parts are too hot or cold for life to form. For the man, who waits at least 100,000 years to introduce a savior in the form of his son who he sacrifices so that we can all wash our sins and get into the magical afterlife.

"God created the earth in 6 days" - Hmmm there would be no days, because a day represents a full rotation of the earth on its axis, must be like 6 "GOD" days or something.

These are cool stories and also the beliefs of many religious people. HURR DURR

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by sinohptik

 

As an atheist i have a lack of a belief. Theists propose the concept that a divine intelligent being created our existence (and in most cases they believe this being intervenes in human affairs) They make a positive assertion on the nature of reality, of the causation of reality. They deal in revealed wisdom. This cannot be, they are as agnostic as us.

They don't use science, they use faith. How can this be respected or go unchallenged, why should it expect respect?

Again, you bring up "was the earth round before...." Yes of course the earth was round before it was common human understanding (and considered "fact") that it was flat. We were ignorant from the TRUTH that the scientists and thinkers were yet to undercover.

you really dont understand what i am trying to get at with that?

It's as if you think i have some sort of problem, a contrarian complex, i'm just arguing for the sake of "hurting feelings" or i'm just to proud to admit the evident nature of "GOD".

What other questions do you have? I'm happy to answer them honestly like i have done so far.

I am trying to genuinely understand your perspective, perhaps you are not familiar with such things, eh?

READ MY FIRST PARAGRAPH. Science uncovers the mystery of nature by testing, what's your argument, what's your point?

SCIENCE IS MORE THAN HAPPY TO ADMIT WHEN IT IS WRONG, THAT'S WHAT MAKES A GOOD SCIENTIST, PROGRESSION OF KNOWLEDGE, UNTIL WE HAVE EVIDENCE OF SOMETHING SO THAT WE CAN DEMONSTRATE IN AN EXPERIMENT.

HE DEVOTES 20 YEARS OF HIS LIFE, ONLY TO BE PROVED WRONG, BY ANOTHER SCIENTIST WITH A BETTER THEORY UNTIL WE HAVE DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE OF SOMETHING: I.E THE NATURE OF THE PLANET WE LIVE ON.

Please read what i say carefully, you keep asking the same questions, only re-phrased.

edit on 15/12/10 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

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All caps huh?

I keep asking the same questions because i have not been able to relate the concept behind them, and you have not answered many of them anyway Our chairs dont match, as it were. Certainly nothing to "yell" about. Sheesh, ive kept it light-hearted even!

The entire point was that if "truth" is staring you directly in the face, do you need math and science to prove it? If it were to leap out of the screen and literally punch you in the face, would you deny it until the science had caught up to something far beyond human comprehension? You may be waiting a... while Or at least until they prove the Earth is round, right? So what does the scientific mind do? It certainly doesnt wait for mass accepted scientific pursuits (think the "renegades" who thought the Earth was round waited?). It searches it out for itself, reducing variables, tracking patterns, etc. You may be interested in what you, personally, find when you try to search for truth beyond your beliefs, or beyond what science has told you are your beliefs.

Science may question itself, but in the meantime, it throws its weight around as if it were all true, does it not? Or at least it is done that way by proponents. Is there no possibility science could be used to control human perception? Seems to me if it were to be done, i wouldnt mess around with anything as fickle as "faith." Especially not in our "educated" age.

What you speak of is an idealogical scientific pursuit, as with everything in humanity, how far do you think such idealogy goes in the face of money, greed, and pride?

On an interesting note, you have yet to answer questions i have repeatedly asked, but you did take note that i asked them. And also have not actually asked for my personal beliefs on the matter. You dont seem to be questioning much :\ Could God exist? I sincerely apologize if you actually answered that and i somehow missed it, ill blame it on the ninja tendencies

reply to post by awake_and_aware


You're assuming WAY too much. And you know what happens when you ASSUME..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by crezo

 

I would be a selfish, mindless twit, without those stories and what they've done to inform me.

You don't need a bible or religion to be a decent person and care for others and the entire world we live on. If you truly believe you would have been a 'selfish mindless twit' without religion then that just goes to further my viewpoint (which i won't get into as it will seem offensive to you, and that is not my intention).

Not all atheists are bad people! There's just as many religious people in the world who are hateful selfish people, only most of them seem to think it's acceptable because of what their chosen scripture tells them.

I believe you should treat others and live your life as you would want to be treated (if not better!), not how someone else has told you that you should. Whether that's a book, a government or a 'god'.

Common decency, thoughtfulness and caring and respect for everyone is how I choose to live my life, regardless of age, race, sex, sexuality or religious belief. As far as I am concerned i consider everyone to be equal, and to have the same rights, where as 99% of religions teach the opposite. Women and gays are constantly belittled and seen as inferior (and in some cases killed) due to religious teachings, that's not how I choose to live my life thanks.

reply to post by JR MacBeth

Hey, I would just like to THANK you, for being at least WILLING to give this a second thought or at least some serious reflection and consideration. Your pointing out that the "reframe" i was trying to make was asking you to come out of one box, only to be placed in another, albeit much larger and more expansive box clearly demonstrates to me your open mindedness and keenness of mind. You do me honor, by extending yourself and your own "frame" in this way, to consider perhaps opening your box, or asking to be let out of the new box. You seem to be getting where I was coming from, or starting from. It's nice to be understood, even if only in part to begin with, there's "konoinia" there (look it up).

Did you know that the meaning of "Church" is to call out from, and "Religion" to re-join..? The REAL meaning.

Bear in mind that what happened, from the ancient wisdom, through the middle ages, was a division of Religion into two religions, one, the one most atheists conveniently refer to ad nausiem being the exoteric, and another, much much deeper one, or the esoteric, which simply cannot hide forever!

And I have always maintained that there is a place at Christ's table for the atheists, or many of them, who are open minded like you. Why? Because you will take a place closer to the head of the table than the literalist fundamentalists "believers", being of inquisitive rational mind, where the root of Logos, is Logic. They will have only a dim belief, if that, while you and I will sit together grinning with gnosis, and transmitting that all around by our good humour!

Glod Bless, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year!

Love you all!

NAM

reply to post by crezo


And not all Christians are good people.

This is not about good or bad, should or shouldn't, but about what's real and true, what our true position is as mysterious subjective observers moving around in an objective reality, relative one to another, from group to group, community to community, nation to nation, maybe even from world to world, galaxy to galaxy - surely the same universal principals apply everywhere, maybe even as the natural metaphysical outcropping of the laws of physics themelves..

All I'm after, is the simplicity on the far side of complexity, and there, in the domain of nothing that is everything, there is only the love of God as a causative thing, a motivating factor, a catalyst for creativity, and ENJOYMENT! It's fun, a celebration, a party!

But you refuse to "get" that, or, to even begin to consider the possibility that I'm not crazy, and that I may have discovered something along the way, that I know what I'm talking about, or what I know that I don't know I know, if you know what I mean.

Open your boxes, and come OUT of there!!!

reply to post by NewAgeMan



I do 'get' the main point of that. However I just wish everyone would feel that, not through segregation that religion ultimately leads to (not all religions admittedly, but the majority). That's the reason I wish religion didn't exist; so that all of us could celebrate the joy of LIFE itself and see that we are all one, interconnected and living entity, I don't see the need for that to be through a 'god'. A celebration of life and how we are all connected does not need to have a 'creator' attached to it in my view. The simple fact that we are all here, all feeling and can make each and everyone around us feel amazing is what I wish more than anything for the world.

To stop fighting over beliefs, killing and slaughtering kids over land that is said to be theirs in a 'book'. We are all the same, and all have a right to be here and happy in the world.

I'd also be interested to know what you have discovered and learnt along the way that makes you such a strong believer. I don't ask this in a sarcastic or derogatory way, I'm genuinely interested as the only people I know who are religious have either bean brought up that way, or have gone through a very tough time in their life when they turned to the church and it's community for help and reassurance. And these are the most strongly religious people I know.

However as a non-beleiver, those situations strike me as preying on the weak - and I don't mean that in an offensive way in any form whatsoever. That's just how it appears to me, when someone is having a life trauma, setting out a structured way to 'be a better person' or saying that 'don't worry God will show you the way' just seems a bit wrong to me. From my point of view, love and support is what they need, not a book to tell them everything will be alright as god is looking over you. I can see it would make perfect sense to a believer that that would be the best thing to do to help them, however to a non believer it kind of seems a devious way to get them on board.

I hope that doesn't come across as nasty, I'm just trying to explain how it seems from someone who sees religion as a way of controlling people/growing that religion.... hope that makes sense, as my brain-word thought linkage doesn't tend to work too well at 2am

reply to post by crezo


Well, I think it's only appropriate that "God" be INcluded, as our experience OF God, whereby God becomes our "condition" as Adi Da describes it, to which I would add what I call the indespensible I-Thou relationship WITH God, where the Absolute itself is the creative space and domain of infinite possibility that IS our reality, actualized at each moment VIA our own inclusion in it. What springs from that? Gratitude. That gratitude is God experiencing himself through us, don't you see? We can only let go of such a relationship when it gets to the point when it doesn't matter any more, when God is fully realized, and the boxes of self, or of selfisness, are undone, and even then, we'll want to be in humble submission to a higher power, lest out residual ego-seed gets the better of us and tries to take over and delude us once again! So that's why I call it an indepesible relationship, to keep us out of our own self deluded hells, as an ever present reminder of the cause and the source of our gratitude and our love, don't you see?

We are fast catching up with God now, as evolved sentients at the apex of a very longggg cosmic evolutionary process, and here we are now!

What I am describing here is a complete liberation, in a boundless domain of freedom, and loving spirit, where "thy will is done on earth as it is in heaven".. it's not a "should" but a "want to".

Until then, religion is the vessel which holds in trust the ancient wisdom, making it now available for our mutual enjoyment and "grokking", and that's what it's there for. It's food and water at the Great Banquet, but WE ourselves and our presence is the REAL enjoyment (koinonia).

You are still stuck in the atheist frame (box).

Your problem isn't with "religion" but religious differences, is that it?

I understand. It's a good heart which wants to put an end to unneccessary suffering, but we cannot discard the final frame of reference, until it's safe to do so, and well, we're not there yet, as this very thread clearly demonstrates.

P.S. Regarding that moral dilemma you mentioned.

WWJD - what would Jesus do?

Does that mean we need to go check the book first to see what Jesus would do?

Of course not, since Jesus is the spirit of the love of God which motivates right thinking and action, so any REAL Christian worth their salt, will bracket everything but the love of Christ in the final analysis, and we'll act out of that love, not just because "it's the right thing to do".

So you see, religion has it's own dissolution built right into it, just not in the way that most atheists would ASSUME (sorry for yelling that, but it really does make us both look foolish in the final analysis).

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Most don't understand faith because they have a dead
spirit.No light of truth shines from them and they stumble
in the darkness.
People of faith have the light of the Lord shining through
them,we don't walk in darkness.

We do backslide from time to time, until the light on us get's unbearable! We grieve the spirit, probably more than we'd care to know. So I have to disagree that it's all light and happiness! It can be a painful and couragious journey in fact, but thanks be to the Lord our crosses needn't be all that heavy. And for those who REALLY get it, it's like balsa wood!

There was one more thing I wanted to add.

I hear people saying that if religion is like training wheels on our collective tricycle, that we don't need them anymore, but just stop and look back through this thread, for example, or watch TV, the news, watch people, and I mean WATCH and observe, not with judgement but just observing. The problem isn't religion, and we are by no means ready to jetison something that we haven't even begun to understand. Just look at the atheists who assume, and then want to go on a killing spree to rid the world of the religious, of people like me, people like who I am becoming I should say, due in no small part, to the logos or the "Christic word".


The Christ-mind is like an upturned empty Buddha bowl made empty by being first filled with Hermes.

And "The kingdom of heaven is like a wealthy merchant in search of a very fine and prescious pearl, who, upon finding it, sells everything he owns, to have that pearl."

These things are things that the militant atheist SPITS on, and you all think it's time to do away with it?!

Bell Rings - Recess is over now, time to go back in..

I'd have people attempt to look at things from a theosophic perspective. Incorporate all knowledge and beliefs.
Spirituality is a personal experience, so organised religion is like lying to yourself. How can you, in all your unique beauty, have the same experience and beliefs as someone else? It sounds like a juvenile who votes for the same party as their parents, simply because it 'seems right' that their parents would be correct. Spirituality is a journey that requires you to answer the questions of life for yourself, based on ALL the knowledge and wisdom you come across. Choosing one religion and allowing it to have static rules is limiting yourself and limiting your experience.

I don't think eliminating religion is possible. Human imagination will just keep spawning religions. Unless only robots survive, oh wait...BSG anyone? :p

Deism and the ETs showing up!

The U.S. is living under a Deistic Constitution. The only way it could be removed is through a crisis which would lead to a police state. Therefore, the answer is in Deism.

Thomas Paine was Deist and so was many of the American founders. There were only two Deistic states in the world: France and USA!

Thomas Paine strangely even wanted Napolean to invade the U.K.! There is a reason for this because he thought the setting up of a Deistic constitution like the one setup in the U.S. giving religious liberties and freedom would theoretically lead to the removal of the established religions and be replaced by Deism.

Today, Deism is in constant competition with Atheism. While being undermined by religious extremists and immoral capitalists(versus the Moral Capitalism which Adam Smith championed).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

"It makes me feel calm and happy just sitting here by the window in the sun. Thank you God."

~ Your Dog

She was watching the cat freak out at that time, I doubt she was thinking anything about god, or ever has. It's more likely that she worships bacon and sees me as god since I give it to her and my girlfriend doesn't. Either way leave Harley out of your numerous quotes please, it's not something that I have thought about before, but I don't appreciate someone speaking as my dog.

Originally posted by mamabeth

Most don't understand faith because they have a dead
spirit.No light of truth shines from them and they stumble
in the darkness.
People of faith have the light of the Lord shining through
them,we don't walk in darkness.

I'm sorry mama, but that makes no rational sense. Having spirit and seeing the light sound nice when you say them, but the fact remains that it is not something we can perceive with our senses. As for having spirit, that depends on your definition, if it is so narrow that only those who believe in your particular form of god have spirit, then I'm afraid the majority of the people on planet Earth don't have spirit according to that and some may, in fact, have a completely different definition. If what you mean by it is someone who is motivated enough to accomplish their goals, there are plenty of atheists with plenty of spirit.

The "light of the lord" is also something that does not seem to be real to me. I see light, we all see light, regardless of the analogies you use to describe what you think is the truth, I say what you 'think', because the two ideas directly contradict each other and only one can be right. Atheists are in pursuit of things that can be proven to exist without a doubt, not things that can only be taken on faith. That word in itself, 'faith', implies believing in something that you cannot be sure exists, how can you say that we are not seeing the light (truth) when you are purely speculating?

Now that I say that, I have no qualms with anyone believing in a god, however personally I refuse to take anything on faith. An idea as powerful as the origins of my own existence is not something simple enough that I can simply lay down my rationality and say "okay, sure I'll take that, sounds good enough". I find it quite insulting to think that because of this you think I have a dead spirit, or that I am not seeing light, if anything, I am examining it with the utmost scrutiny.

Originally posted by mamabeth

Originally posted by Anttyk47
Has anyone mentioned 'Nuke em' yet?

I don't think so,but that would be the ultimate
of stupidity.Poisoning a planet just to get rid
of some unwanted people!

Aren't unwanted people Poisons?
You nor can anyone play GOD.
What is, is there, and what's going to happen, will.
The death of Religion is not going to happen because people want it to happen, it will happen because it will.
That's to say unless we don't learn from our mistakes,
Than we can play god and it will lead us to the same damn thing playing god has lead us to do.
(Two different lead's lol)

Originally posted by Willy1959
I blame everything on our constant belief that everything we been told is true but when you start digging its not.

People never will admit they been hoodwinked. They will never get of their behinds and look at past history.
Its always second hand information.
The other problem is the play on words and there original meaning.

I agree to that. People base their knowledge and arguements on what they have read and believe to be true.Most of what they read is actually the opinions of the writers. Only a very few really find the real true picture in the memories which they have experienced in their past lives.There are many meanings in words which are dependant on how they are used. The meaning of phrases in religious texts have different meanings for each individual which is based on their actual experience of their life. No one person can claim that they are all intelligent and that the knowledge that they possess comes from themselves.
In time we will know if what we believe to be is true. How high you progress in evolution is what you and only you can achieve through your perception of things.

Originally posted by Fragment
Spirituality is a journey that requires you to answer the questions of life for yourself, based on ALL the knowledge and wisdom you come across. Choosing one religion and allowing it to have static rules is limiting yourself and limiting your experience.

This is what intelligent minds should pursue. Those who wants see things in its true real form should open their mind and investigate and scrutinise the concept and meanings in the different religions and how the power of that religion are ruling their followers. If they choose to close their mind,they cannot see through the illusions and they limit themselves to existing in a box.