Mormons Have World's Largest Database on Human Race: Why?

reply to post by Alethea


I didn't post to get into a philosophical religious debate, so I am not going to start slinging rebuttal references and disproving your links and stuff. In order for a debate to be fair and objective, debaters must be able to agree on source materials. I don't agree with yours, and you don't agree with mine. That's fine, no problem, but lobbing links back and forth isn't really an effective use of our time.
The problem (especially) with ancient sources is that while you hold the sources from IRR as authentic, I see personal interpretations, bias and perhaps mistranslation. Sort of the way you see my POV. Also, IRR is inherently bias. From the homepage, it is clear that it's mission is to discredit the LDS faith, among others. Not really an effective source when debating believers.
That being said, I did read you link in it's entirety and I will research the topic further. At first blush my thoughts are that as today, the doctrine was considered sacred and not spoken of commonly nor written of either, hence the lack of historical evidence. Pearls before swine and all that...

I do want to let you know that Mormons aren't taught things for the express purpose of defending belief. We are taught things for our our understanding of our beliefs. I also take exception to the term "parrot". There are much more neutral ways to express your ideas, without resorting to phrasing that marginalizes your opponents.

I wrote my post with the simple purpose to provide another perspective on what genealogy and baptism for the dead means to someone of the LDS faith. Whether you think aliens or illuminati are behind the church, my goal was to express that we aren't posthumously converting people to "Mormonism" (as many here seem to think.) The practice encompasses a bigger picture than many think.

PS: That other link, the crazy picture...That's not my church! We don't use blindfolds, nooses, roll up one pantleg like the Crips, nor twin pillars. We do wear white in the Temple...I guess that's related...

My opinion: ANYTHING can be used for nefarious purposes - - by ANYONE.

I do not believe the intent of the genealogy had any intentions other then what it was intented for - - baptism of the dead.

Many atrocities for political control have been done in the name of __________________ (fill in the blank).

I think its quite clear the OP has negative opinions of the religion itself. Which strongly slants what could have been a straight forward un-biased discussion.

Well I took a drive up the road to the facility from Cottonwood canyon, I guess you're not supposed to but I went any. Lots of no trespassing signs, then the corner of a building with blacked out windows and doors. Also there was a collection of white vans, blacked out windows and no lettering just like the building. Pretty creepy.

I find it very sad that so many people not of the Mormon faith claim to know more about than those who are members of the church. Our interest in family history is not anything dangerous or suspect in any way. I am thankful to those members that are willing to debate and talk with some very disrespectful people on this thread. I will not engage in it because most of the time it is counterproductive as their ideas are more important to them than the truth. I have questioned my faith many times and explored many others and many concepts but always come back to the church. I am done searching and know for myself that the church is true.

I would suggest that making disparaging remarks and hateful comments about any religion is the height of ignorance. You never know when you are coming into direct conflict with God and one day have to face what you have said. Being one that has faced it, I would plead with you, don't insult what people believe. Have your opinions but leave them to worship in peace.

Originally posted by redhead57
I find it very sad that so many people not of the Mormon faith claim to know more about than those who are members of the church.

Quite the phenomenon isn't it.

You can look someone straight in the face and say: "I AM Mormon" - - and they still think they know more then you do.

Just like on this thread. No one cares or wants to hear what a legitimate Mormon has to say.

I have been (or tried) many other beliefs - - but this seems to be exclusive to Mormon.

Originally posted by Yonder mountain
Well I took a drive up the road to the facility from Cottonwood canyon, I guess you're not supposed to but I went any. Lots of no trespassing signs, then the corner of a building with blacked out windows and doors. Also there was a collection of white vans, blacked out windows and no lettering just like the building. Pretty creepy.

You know what they say....
"Pics or it didn't happen!"

Originally posted by Alethea

Originally posted by Yonder mountain
Well I took a drive up the road to the facility from Cottonwood canyon, I guess you're not supposed to but I went any. Lots of no trespassing signs, then the corner of a building with blacked out windows and doors. Also there was a collection of white vans, blacked out windows and no lettering just like the building. Pretty creepy.

You know what they say....
"Pics or it didn't happen!"

And you lived to tell the tale, unmolested. Pretty laid back for a nefarious conspiracy!

Originally posted by cazzy2211
I'm fairly sure if their god is as they say he is, they could just ask that he baptises/seals ALL the dead without the need for documents.

They see God as an all-powerful bureaucrat - he LOVES the documentation and forms.

Well one thing I know, I was photographed and I would assume my license plate number was recorded. Don't ask me why I'm sure, I just am.

Total conjecture here but something I find interesting. Anyone that lives in Utah knows that the beehive symbol is used everywhere including on the state flag, cop cars, freeway signs etc. The ostensible meaning has to do with industry but the symbol is very old and was used by the Merovingians on their coat of arms etc. The Frankish King's lineage was thought to include that of Christ and is supposedly monitored to this day. Couple that with the fact that the main temple in SLC has an underground entrance used by everyone as the main doors are sealed until Jesus enters through them one day and the whole obsessive genealogical records thing, well, becomes a little more interesting.

As far as taking pics of the place even I don't have the nerve to jump out with a camera. They let you know you're not welcome there.

Originally posted by Yonder mountain
Well one thing I know, I was photographed and I would assume my license plate number was recorded. Don't ask me why I'm sure, I just am.

So you really did go there? I thought maybe your previous post was a joke or sarcasm. I wasn't sure at all. Fort Knox has black helicopters. Did you see any security features like that, too? What are they really guarding in a deep underground vault with 14 ton doors? Why not have the records in a nice office building with bank-type vaults and museum security? It really does seem "over the top".

Originally posted by Yonder mountain
Total conjecture here but something I find interesting. Anyone that lives in Utah knows that the beehive symbol is used everywhere

The beehive symbol may also originate from a deep underground vault. The Beehive Tomb:



Notice the cap of the pyramid separated from the "post". Very similar to what we see in other pyramidal/capstone images today.

Most often, beehive tombs were placed underground, either built deep into the side of a hill, or, as in areas with flat parcels of land, were entirely subterranean. In the case of the latter, if any part of the structure protruded above the ground it was carefully covered using earth that was held in place by a retaining wall.[1]

www.newworldencyclopedia.org...

I also suspect that these "tombs" were not actually for any burials. Just as the great pyramids were reputed to be tombs and yet no actual evidence of burials have been found in them. These underground vaults must have served some other purpose.

And voila! My speculation is confirmed!

Perhaps the most famous beehive tomb in Greece is the Treasury of Atreus, sometimes called the Tomb of Clytemnestra, located in Mycenae, Greece (on the Panagitsa Hill) constructed around 1250 B.C.E. The name of the tomb is misleading, for no one is exactly sure who was meant to be entombed in the chamber, and no artifacts have been recovered there. Due to the impressive size and exact masonry of the tomb, it is assumed that it was built for a king who would likely have been buried with treasures and weapons, yet none have been discovered at the site. Still, it remains one of the most impressive burial structures in Greece, and was the tallest and widest dome in the world for over one thousand years until construction of the Temple of Mercury in Baiae.

www.newworldencyclopedia.org...

Are these the places of the "underworld"? The places where those evil doers who live in the shadows, behind the scenes, keep their secrets?


In the Book of Jubilees and also in Enoch, Sheol was defined as "a place of condemnation". The giants, among them the Rephaim and Nephilim, were said to dwell underground or in the underworld. It was also referred to as "Sheol". Now many people equate "Sheol" as 'hell' (a place of eternal torment) or as 'the grave' (a place of burial) but this seems to be a contemporary re-wording and changes the meaning from the original intention as evidenced by the apocryphal literature referenced above.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, the "giants" were not monsters, rather, they are defined as "the children of evil". Because they often operated behind the scenes, keeping their deceits hidden and not open about what was really being done, they were said to be in "the shadows" and therefore these entities were referred to as "the Shades". Shades=Hades. Look at the similarity of the written word as well as the meanings of the words. Hades also referred to the dwelling place of "the Shades".


"The word "hades" (= underworld) was substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint) in ancient Alexandria around 200 BCE (see Hellenistic Judaism)." --wiki "Sheol"

"English translations of the Hebrew scriptures have variously rendered the word Sheol as "Hell"[5] or "the grave".[6]" ---wiki "Sheol"



According to the Jewish Encyclopedia: Sheol : Hebrew word of uncertain etymology ....synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss).

Read more: www.jewishencyclopedia.com...




The Beehive Tomb pictured above is also known as the Tomb of Atreus or the Tomb of Agamenon. Who were these people? I speculate that they were of the tribes of "giants", the children of evil, where the word "giants" refers to their power and status rather than physical stature. I also suspect that in relation to physical statue that the original word from which 'giants' has been translated may also refer to congenital disfigurement or deformity as well. These deformities could be influenced by parental consanguinity, which would be an important genetic concern.

The Tomb also goes by names that are even more ancient such as the Tomb of Cyclops and the Tomb of the Genii. (Could "Genii" refer not only to a trickster, but origin of the very word "genii-ology"? Could "Cyclops" refer to the eye symbol used in the pyramid capstone so frequently used in Illuminati/Freemasonry images?) What are these Apian Hills all about?

reply to post by ianmoone1


You've done a great job explaining Jewish tradition and it's relevance to the Jesus story. I'd always thought Joseph's geneology felt suss, particularly as him not being the father made it irrelevant, but my take was that the immaculate conception must have been added in later.

I'd not thought to put 2 + 2 together regarding matrilingal inheritance of Judaism.

I agree the wedding had to have been that of Jesus. The problem with that for the church was that most likely meant the existance of children of Jesus, whose very existance raised questions as to his godhood, and who could tarnish his name by future misdeeds.

And, worst of all for the church, they could be seen as The Christian authority.



However, you've got your genetics all ass about tit.
The mitochondrial DNA is in the mitochondria, which is inside the "shell", in the cytoplasm. - it's not part of the shell.

The walls do not contain the mother's nucleic DNA, that's in the centre.

The mitochondrial DNA in the ovum are the same as those in the mother, which are the same as those in her mother, etcetera.
They are not a copy of the mother's nucleic DNA. They are a copy of her mitochondrial DNA.
They are not inherited from 2 matriachal lineages, as the father cannot pass on mitochondria.

Apart from the occasional mutation, mitochondria are inherited without change or recombination. Human mitochondria have been traced back to one "mitochondrial Eve", who all modern humans have descended from.



Thanks for your post though. I found it well worth reading.

reply to post by Alethea


No, no helicopters and such but it was clear I didn't belong there. It was pretty creepy. As far as underground tunnels etc. rumors of these are fairly rampant in Utah as well as the four corner states though I've had no personal experience with them.

Originally posted by Alethea


The Tomb also goes by names that are even more ancient such as the Tomb of Cyclops and the Tomb of the Genii. (Could "Genii" refer not only to a trickster, but origin of the very word "genii-ology"? Could "Cyclops" refer to the eye symbol used in the pyramid capstone so frequently used in Illuminati/Freemasonry images?) What are these Apian Hills all about?

The Theogany (700 BC) is a geneology of the origins of the gods and their generations.

In both Greek and Roman mythology, the Cyclops was a primordial race of giants. Zeus releases the three Cyclops from the pit of Tartarus.

(Tartarus--"It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides beneath the underworld. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus.")

Zeus works through the three Cyclops. One provides his thunderbolt, which represents power and control and threatening censure. One has the helmet of invisibility, which represents deceits and things hidden. One manufactures and controls the weaponry and punishments.

Why does the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City have the Eye of Cyclops over the door?



Could it be that this Cyclops represents one of the tribes of the giants that have been spoken of in bible scriptures? Although many religious leaders have portrayed that the purpose of the flood was to destroy the wicked Nephilim and giants, the scriptures state that even after the flood there were still giants on the earth.

According to 2 Samuel, the giants belong to a cursed class called Rephaim. The Anakim was only one tribe. There were others: Zamzummim, Gibborim, Horim, Avim, Zuzim, Emin, children of Ammon, sons of Anuk (Anakim), King Og of Bashan, Gittite.

I wonder if offspring of these giant races are still on the face of the earth and if so, what biometric marks might identify them? I wonder if this can be traced through DNA? Could there be any obvious outward signs that alert us to this ancient ancestry that might be in bloodlines today?

One thing that does seem to be common throughout the tribes of giants is deformities. For instance, Lahmi, the brother of Goliath had 24 fingers and toes. Even the three Cyclops have obvious deformities that would surely frighten superstitious people.

How far can the human lineage really be traced? Is this search for genetic origin the reason we are being scanned, poked, proded and coerced to extract our data in this day and time?

Ezra 2 lists the prisoners of war that were captured and taken to Babylon. With all the superstition about the meanings of '666', I found it interesting to note that this number also applies to the children of Adonikam.

1 Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;
...
13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.

Answering the OP, the Mormons are a "works" based church, like the Catholics. Hence, the membership is kept working on church affairs. Most of the membership is working for free. If they don't have enough to do, they are also burdened with the task of "saving" their "dead" by baptism of the dead. (If you go back 11 generations, you will have well over 25,000 people to track and baptize, which should keep the average Mormon pretty busy for a lifetime doing (useless) work for the Church. Even the New Testament decried "endless genealogies" as a waste of time.

Part of creating a business is to create a need and then fill that need. For example, Polaroid created a camera that took instant pictures using their instant film. They made the cameras cheap, the film expensive. Today we see the same process at work in printers. The inkjet printers are very cheap, but the ink cartridges are very expensive and need replacement.

In the Mormon faith, the foundation for creating the new needs specific to the Mormon belief:
1. New text Book of Mormon created out of thin air (no original golden plates)
2. New translation of the Bible by Joseph Smith
3. New rules in the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and words of the church prophets and apostles to date.

Following these scriptures and prophets/apostles required the membership to fulfill tasks. They must do their home teaching, their family home evening, attend their meetings, do their genealogy, pay their tithing, etc. in order to be "good" Mormons. Some of these requirements, such as supporting their leadership and paying their tithing, are requirements to obtain a temple recommend, another work needed to attain a higher level of blessing.

Whether you believe it or not, the system that keeps these people controlled by their church revolves around a complex set of rules that are based on a desire to attain a higher spirituality. Falling short of these levels of spirituality creates a sense of guilt. Compare this to self-flagellation of some members of the Catholic church even today. Martin Luther was himself self-flagellating. Today, we see folks who spend time in meditation, charitable giving, etc. seeking a higher spirituality. Essentially, we are looking at works. Ironically, Christ freed us from the works 2000 years ago. However, to sustain a large organization, works are required and the best way to accomplish the works is to create a sense of guilt in the members if they do not do them. Consider the great works of Michaelangelo, and the guilt put upon him by the Catholic church to attain these levels of work for the church.

Perhaps if there was no guilt trip, churches would crumble into dust and die. In my opinion, the church was always only about the people loving each other, not about edifices, paintings, sculptures, architectural excellence, bank accounts in the billions of dollars, etc.

Genealogy is a lifetime work, especially for the aged who enjoy preserving their family history. It is another way for the church to keep the membership on-task until the day they cannot function anymore.

This is interesting. I guess someone or some group of people had to this. At least the site is free I believe.
Thanks for the information.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Answering the OP, the Mormons are a "works" based church, like the Catholics. Hence, the membership is kept working on church affairs. Most of the membership is working for free. If they don't have enough to do, they are also burdened with the task of "saving" their "dead" by baptism of the dead. Even the New Testament decried "endless genealogies" as a waste of time.

True, the LDS church is works-based, as you describe. From the regional level down, members do indeed volunteer their time and skills in order to serve their community. From regional executive positions to those who volunteer to clean the building, by and large folks don't get paid. And it's not stratified. Someone who cleans the building, or serves as scoutmaster can be asked to serve as Bishop, and vice versa. I have seen many examples of both. There is no inherent pride or honor in one form of service over another: (If someone feels there is, they need to check their pride).
As for the genealogy being a "burden", there's no rule or law saying you have to do family history work. It is encouraged, and more often than not you are right, older folks have the time and interest more often than young, busy people trying to raise families of their own. And as for it being a waste of time...the verse you are referring to is 1 Timothy 1:4.
Timothy uses the term together with giving heed to "fables" which cause disputes, applied to the topic of errors in doctrine and loss of focus. I would imagine that perhaps pride in lineage was an issue in Ephesus. In the LDS church, genealogy is not a matter of pride, rather it fosters a sense of connectedness with the past, with family. Again, anyone who thinks otherwise (and it is sadly too common) also needs to check their pride.

In the Mormon faith, the foundation for creating the new needs specific to the Mormon belief:
1. New text Book of Mormon created out of thin air (no original golden plates)
2. New translation of the Bible by Joseph Smith
3. New rules in the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and words of the church prophets and apostles to date.

Do you have faith the the Ark of the Covenant exists, somewhere? It hasn't been seen for thousands of years, yet many do believe through faith. The plates were seen in modern times, with signed statements by those who witnessed them. The first 3 witnessed not only the physical existence, but the spiritual nature of the plates, and the divine translation. The 8 witnesses testify that they did see and touch the actual plates.
lds.org...
Even though some of the witnesses left the church, none ever denied the plates (or the divine nature of them).
en.fairmormon.org...

As for the new translations, the LDS use the KJV as the official bible text. There are several reasons why the JST is not used, summed up best here en.fairmormon.org...

Finally the new scripture: I know many disagree, but the LDS church does not believe that God encapsulated all his commands and teachings in one ancient era, with one people, to (hopefully) be passed down unaltered through the ages. Aren't our lives and salvation as precious to God as the ancients? Why wouldn't God guide and direct man in this time, arguably the most wicked in history?

Following these scriptures and prophets/apostles required the membership to fulfill tasks. They must do their home teaching, their family home evening, attend their meetings, do their genealogy, pay their tithing, etc. in order to be "good" Mormons. Some of these requirements, such as supporting their leadership and paying their tithing, are requirements to obtain a temple recommend, another work needed to attain a higher level of blessing...

A "good" Mormon is one who is trying. No one is perfect. Many of the things on your list here are not being done regularly by many members, as hectic lives and careers get in the way. The temple requirements are more stringent for a purpose. If a person is at conflict with the church (doctrines or leadership) they are not a worthy candidate to participate in the most sacred parts of the religion. What good would complex doctrine serve someone who doesn't have an understanding of the basics?

...Whether you believe it or not, the system that keeps these people controlled by their church revolves around a complex set of rules that are based on a desire to attain a higher spirituality. Falling short of these levels of spirituality creates a sense of guilt...

Absolutely true (about people feeling guilty when they fall short, that is)! Just like when any other moral person falls short of their self-expectations feels a sense of guilt. The level of guilt isn't absolute either. Everyone is moving along the path at their own speed. I feel guilty about not going to church for a few years now. You may feel guilty for not putting a fair tithe in the plate last week. The problem with your analysis is the "control" part. It isn't a top-down guilt, it's a self created guilt, and it's universal to any person of faith that is trying to be a better person (and falling short).
Also, your post assumes that guilt is bad. Without guilt, would anyone of any persuasion strive to do better? The LDS church doesn't teach from a guilt/punishment point of view, it teaches from a positive perspective that emphasizes rewards (i.e. Honesty yields Integrity, Service yields Humility, Faith yields Understanding).
The service we are asked to do is proportional to our progress, and we are *always* free to decline. There are no repercussions to turning down a call to serve, other than the missed opportunities that may have resulted from that call.

...Ironically, Christ freed us from the works 2000 years ago. However, to sustain a large organization, works are required and the best way to accomplish the works is to create a sense of guilt in the members if they do not do them...

Here's the real reason I decided to reply to you: LDS "works" vs. Christian "saved."
The LDS church unequivocally believes in the saving grace of Christ. Without accepting Jesus' atonement no man can be saved. I repeat, just as so many other Christians, we believe that only through Christ's gift can we be saved.

While the way we express the concept is different, the application is the same.

Christians believe that if someone is truly saved, their works should manifest as Christian.
The LDS church believes that we are saved through faith and acceptance of Christ's atonement, and our actions are the evidence of our faith. lds.org...

reply to post by nerbot



I think that's it.
Like selling a giant mailing list.
Pay money, and get leaves on your family tree.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Answering the OP, the Mormons are a "works" based church,

I believe you're confusing "works" with "responsibility."

The reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints keep geneological records is for the purpose of Baptism for the Dead. Once a name of a deceased have been submitted and the proxy-baptism has been performed, that name doesn't have to be submitted again. It's already been mentioned in thisa thread but I'll mention it again.

The records are kept in safe storage for the purpose of people who are interested in doing their own geneological work. As you may already know, the worlds population is over 6 billion strong. The LDS records on hand is only 2 billion. There is much more work to be done to make this database complete.

I'm not directing this to you but to others in this thread.Family records have been kept for thousands of years. If this were not so, then the Book of Chronicles would cease to exist. It just bewilders people as to why the "Mormon" church would take an interest in doing something like this, especially when in their minds "Mormons" aren't Christians. They want to put a label of conspiracy on it.

And to set the record stragiht for those who think that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a man-made religion less than 2 centuries old. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the same church that Jesus organized when He was in the flesh a little more than 2 thousand years ago. It was not founded by Joseph Smith, as so many will claim. It was Joseph Smith who was given the responsibilty by Jesus Christ Himself to re-establish His church on the face of the Earth. The Angel Moroni was Joseph's guide sent here to direct Joseph to the Golden Plates.

Are "Mormons" Christian? The answer to this question is in every sense of the word they are, even more than many who will label themselves Christian.

I don't care what disbelievers may think about LDS members. It is their blindness that keeps them from the truth.

If anyone would want to question Joseph Smith and his motives, may I suggest The Testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Disbelievers may ridicule me as much as they like but I'm concrete in my convictions.

Originally posted by Intelearthling


The reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints keep geneological records is for the purpose of Baptism for the Dead. Once a name of a deceased have been submitted and the proxy-baptism has been performed, that name doesn't have to be submitted again. It's already been mentioned in thisa thread but I'll mention it again.

The Mormon church is a funerary religion. It goes further back than Jesus. It originates with Horus.

The four sons of Horus were a group of four gods in Egyptian religion, who were essentially the personifications of the four canopic jars, which accompanied mummified bodies.

The earliest reference to the sons of Horus is found in the Pyramid Texts[3] where they are described as friends of the king, as they assist the king in his ascension to heaven in the eastern sky by means of ladders.

According to what Mormon members have said on this thread "baptizing the dead" would qualify as a means of "assisting in ones ascension to heaven" as described of Horus's sons above.

This fetish with necromancy has nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. It is older than either.

The Pyramid Texts are a collection of ancient Egyptian religious texts from the time of the Old Kingdom. The pyramid texts are the oldest known religious texts in the world.[1] Written in Old Egyptian, the pyramid texts were carved on the walls and sarcophagi of the pyramids at Saqqara during the 5th and 6th Dynasties of the Old Kingdom.

Originally posted by Intelearthling
The records are kept in safe storage for the purpose of people who are interested in doing their own geneological work.

Buried 600 feet into the side of a mountain with a 14 ton steel door is a bit overkill for "safe storage". I think there's more to the story.

Originally posted by Alethea

Buried 600 feet into the side of a mountain with a 14 ton steel door is a bit overkill for "safe storage". I think there's more to the story.

Maybe they're taking cues from the Irish - - who gathered up all genealogy into one church.

Then the church burnt down.