The Antikythera device: Some not so obvious "implications" resulting from it's very existence.

reply to post by tauristercus


Great Find Tauristercus S&F

Thanks for Showing !

The Antikythera Device Is a Anomaly Find

It Amazes me that This Device Existed back then Made by the Greek Gods
Hephaestus, (ET) or Was it Lost Technology of Us Humans Once Had One Thing for Sure Someone knew The Constellations, Astronomy & The Math & Dates to Predict The Future Events and Past Events let alone the precise placement ,measurements,and Degrees for the Location of the Gears and Number of Teeth on them

Im Not Sure if this was Posted Before On ATS but i found a website that shows the X-ray of the Device
A High Resolution Blow up I was In Awe and I would Like to Share this to the Thread

Here is the Link

High Resolution Radiograph of the Antikythera Mechanism available for download
www.xtekxray.com...

The Big Blow Up
www.xtekxray.com...

Another Site
(Note you need a PTM Viewer to see them ) as they are also about 50meg a Piece & 82 in All a DVD worth
its Worth it tho ..

Full Resolution PTM Downloads of the
Antikythera Mechanism
www.hpl.hp.com...


Enjoy I Did !

I Have Yet to do some More research on the Device found in Antikythera as I can Honestly say have not Research it Thoroughly so Thanks Taur for the influence.Again..

Now to watch some videos & PDF's and Books !

reply to post by new_here


For the people asking why build such a device-

This device was capable of plotting eclipses.
I know in south american societies, and im sure this happened everywhere else it was possible.

the leader or religious figures would use an eclipse to gain power and faith over their people.
They would tell their subjects that the leader was actually responsible for the eclipse, and to fear and respect his power. Basically it was all about subjugation. And it is the same method we see used today. Leaders will use their subjects ignorance against them, to cement his place as "god" on earth.

And like you said, it would take some serious investment to get this thing working, which the leaders of their day would of had. And why have we only found 1 thing like this? because it was supposed to be a secret. I was only meant for the hands of leaders, to help them solidify their power structure.


And also, there are many other examples of gear mechanics in greece. Ive seen it on the history channel. I may be wrong, but i think archimedes is one of the great mind responsible for their knowledge of gears.

reply to post by Timetraveller


well what other uses at the time would they have?

the reason they didnt have clocks like we, even though they seem to have the know-how, but there was no good power source for them.

This mechanism however, doesnt need to be running 24/7. just by running a handcrank, one can calculate when eclipses will be.

In all honesty, I cant really think of anything else they would make with this technology, without having a steady power source. Even a calculator which would be just basic addition and subtraction would require orders of magnitude higher intelligence and ability.

It's complicated piece of machinework, but perhaps not that complicated in principle.

If you can do multiplication and division, you can do ratios. When you realize how gear teeth mesh, mechanical computation of tables with fixed input values becomes one relatively obvious application.

As for schedules? I'm sure the ancients had their observation logs and records. These would have had all the tables of recurring celestial phenomena, from which useful ratios could be devised. Unfortunately we don't have them. Things like wars and various factions and governments destroying documents is a problem. The burning of the Library of Alexandria amongst the most well known.

So if you have a regular repeating cycle it's not to hard to make a hand operated calendar. For generic purposes, lets say the moon goes around 12 times in a year. So you make a gearing for a 12:1 ratio. Turn the moon around 12 times and the year indicator goes around once. If you notice other patterns you can also cog them into the year cycle as well and have more complex ratios intertwined. (Say Mars goes around every two years. So two turns of the year wheel turns the Mars dial once. And since the year is still geared to the moon, that's 24 turns of the moon, etc.) From there you just figure ways to pack the gears into the tightest space with tolerances such that they operate smoothly without binding. That's where the art of precision engineering and watchsmithing comes in. (Not exactly a watch in this case, but the same principles apply)

I think the thing most interesting about the computer isn't isn't the knowledge of the gears and the information needed to produce the correct ratios. (Those are pretty much a given, knowing what we know about the Greek civilization. This is because works of Archimedes, Pythagoras, etc. were among those not lost to history.) But instead it's the knowledge needed in materials and machining. Alloys that didn't expand or contract too much to keep tolerances, and the precision of parts that suggests they could do lathing and other machining techniques to produce standardized parts. Supposedly the fabrication of the Antikythera device requires doing things that weren't assumed to be done by craftsmen until the beginning of the industrial era.

It's hard to think what exactly they were doing with this device, I wonder if tidal patterns change drastically during an eclipse so that's why they would include that dial. This has always interested me, the device is so complex and for the time we would've thought this to be impossible. The lego video was also an eye opener, just the mathematics involved... mind blowing. We'll probably not learn much more about this but maybe just maybe there's a more intact one down at the bottom of the ocean or even better... a different device.

Wasn't there great controversy about the movement of the planets, like either circular or elipsical? And didn't this debate happen several hundred years after the device was supposedly made? The whole kopernicus thing? If it accurately depicts solar eclipses, wouldn't advanced knowledge of the movement of planets be required? And how was this knowledge obtained?

Originally posted by Ben81
an AntiCythera device ? ... noooooooooooooo

BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! For those in the know eh?! hehe! (although I must correct you, it would be an AntiCytherea device, but still, your a legend for making me grin!

Suppose the whole world experiances a global cataclysm, in which most of the population is killed off. Your average citizen of the "civilized" world has no idea how a TV, ipod, or even a computer works, much less engines and astronomy. Devices that were used regularly now are left around rotting with no one who knows how to use or repair them. Imagine how much information will be lost in just 1 generation? There will be a few people here and there whose parents taught them what they knew before the cataclysm, but they will be the minority. Eventually they will all die out, or forget becuase daily survival is more important than knowing how to do differential equations, or trig. Society will become more agrarian which will ultimately sever all ties to the past. 1000s of years in their future, they will discover: advanced mathematics, the planets in our solar system, America, airplanes, the internet etc. and believe they are the first to discover them. Out of arrogance they will even propose that their ancestors were more animal like than human, and less intelegent. To control dissent, they label anyone who questions this theory to be a fundamentalist, and it works, and most sheeple just play along despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

2 Peter 3:5-6

But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.

I just figure that at the time there was a small but highly educated group of people who gathered an amount of varied technical information around for safekeeping, and that every once in a while someone of extraordinary intellect -- Einsteins of their day, but not of physics -- would be able to interpret it and make something from it. I don't think there is much dispute that there have been esoteric societies of various types throughout history interested in accumulating potentially valuable information. And these groups would tend to keep to themselves to avoid being used or killed by people wanting to exploit what they new for gain, or to kill them for being either witches or challenging whatever god the people happened to worship.

Not only that, but most people didn't need to know so much technical information. Of all the people of the ancient world who had to know technical things, those would be astronomers, sailors, and temple builders. These folks would form a relatively small group who knew special things. It's natural and obvious. I'm not sure if the Antikythera device is any more illustrative of this than anything else. It's just that in this case, the genius technician who built it was showing his hand a little more, and the device was found. It's hard to tell how many other such devices have been completely destroyed over the years, or squirreled away in catacombs and lost. Probably quite a few.

The most obvious question not asked is "why?"

Why did anyone need this type of calculating device of the planetary movements?

To the naked eye, all planets looks like stars and all stars look the same with exception of brightness. So one day, some people decided that certain stars were planets - they were right, then decided that they needed an elaborate mechanism to track the movement? Why? Tracking seasons is more important - food, water etc. Tracking the planets seems unnecessary.

If you are not into astrology, then why track? You would need to know the planets position of you worked for NASA and were sending a rocket to the moon or mars. By extension if you were leaving earth on a regular basis in some manner or another you might need to know what was where.

reply to post by prepared4truth


Very pertinent point you raise... Though I'm not so sure that our culture makes light of astrology. For instance, the apparent design quirks of Washington's streets and monuments, and the timing of NASA missions. Maybe only the masses and standard academia are taught that astrology is quack science. It seems the illumined/ secretive ones still hold stock in it.

reply to post by Gilbo303


?!?!?!?!

Now I'm off to visit Google. You ATS'ers and your in-jokes...

There have been several (numerous, actually) documentaries on the History type channels. For a while they had a series of them about ancient technology. The Antikythera device was the subject of one of them. Another was about how the Greeks used water to manipulate and to calculate information.

Apparently, the ancient temples had large, grand doors that would open at certain times of the day, automatically. Torches would light. A large statue of the deity would emerge from the far end of the room, moved forward by hidden mechanisms ---all "powered" by the weight of water, the timing controlled by precision dripping of water to set off certain effects at certain times. On a large scale.

If something disastrous happened this moment, within a hundred years a LOT of what we have would be overgrown, eroded and disintigrate. Over the course of a thousand years, almost none of our technology would survive --nor would *evidence* of that technology. Plastics disintegrate over time. Mostly everything is made up of plastic. Steel rusts and concrete crumbles. Grass, roots and weeds eventually have their way with roads and buildings. Imagine what might be hidden in the rainforests of South America, or under the ice in Antarctica.

The point is that after the Greeks came the Romans and when Rome fell, the world was plunged into the Dark Ages, about 500 years. Imagine what might have happened to ancient tech if "barbarians" gained control of delicate instruments. They would have bashed anything they didn't understand to bits. Or, traded it. Or picked it free of valuable jewels and metals, using bits and pieces for this and that. 500 years of ANARCHY. Imagine all of the LOST artwork and manuscripts. It is a miracle we have any of it today, for knowledge is fragile, and once lost on a civilizational level, hard to regain if not impossible. Knowledge of things can become EXTINCT.

And, indeed, for most of us on this planet, it has. Some few, I believe have misered away ancient knowledge, mystical knowledge, perhaps "magical" knowledge. These would be the global elites, the folks with the ancient secrets and the latest fantastic technology.

The academic field is kept under a tight leash. Look what happened to Tesla's work after he died: confiscated IMMEDIATELY by the government. Supposedly "all" of it was released back to his family for inclusion in that museum they dedicated to him years later. Truth is, we will never really know. Personally, I think they still have a good chuck of his information under lock and key. Perhaps for our own good, for Tesla did claim that he'd tapped into technology and energies that could "resonate" the world into immense planetary chunks floating in space. Maybe this is what happened to the planet that once existed between Mars and Jupiter.

Maybe the elite keep this knowledge from us until the 'masses' can prove oneday that they are not "barbarians." If that is the case, I don't see us ever learning those secrets on a societal level. Too many of us are as chaotic as the barbarians and mobs that have plagued civilization throughout history. Until then, we have only the clues about numbers in Mona Lisa's eyes, masonic symbols, ancient texts and devices like the Antikythera to illuminate our way to a deeper understanding of our Universe and the role we play in it.

reply to post by 13th Zodiac



I totally agree that the preservation of this one is a lot of the miracle. The History Channel show Life After People really drives home how everything disappears in time just from nature and corrosion. And if you throw in a meteor or volcanic activity - forget it.

There may have been many. There may have been far more sophisticated made out of light and less durable materials. This looks clunky to us, but at least it's still around. Our iPads won't be known to beings 2000 years from now unless a lot of us do some serious time capsuls and strategically place all over the world for best chances of survival.

I know this because my kids asked me what a walkman was the other day.

Apple should erect a large stone image of an iPad... a monolith... they should call it iRock or

wait for it...

Macca

I am so going to a hot place in a handbasket

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Lets assume the celestial knowledge came from Egypt.

So did Moses, the one that lead the Israelites from Egypt with the help of their lord.
Moses turned up with a mysterious device called the arc of the covenant.

What if this arc was also a piece of ancient knowledge and Moses as son of a pharaoh learned how to build and use it.

Enoch the Prophet and ancestor of Noach, is mentioned to get a look in the heavens.
Speculation exist of him ordering the build of the big pyramid, and he was known in ancient Greek as Hermes.

So I've read.

The white man that visited the Americas and predicted his return. It all seems to be connected.
A Jesus that warns about a majority of people that will have place their trust in the hands of the impostor.

Coincidence maybe regarding the loss of knowledge during the rain of the Catholic churge, which is already mentioned as the whore of Babylon. The endless speculative theories about an elite or illuminated group of people that has been in power ever since Egypt. Passing down the ancient knowledge benefiting only their own interests.

Along with other unexplained historical evidence.

It seems to me that we are closing in on an alternative history one that explains all our doubts puzzles and questions. Excited as I get by these kind of thoughts their is fear . Cause IMO history came with a warning for the future and it seems we are close to a life we are warned not to live...

Seriously Great thread ! S & F

PS
Sorry for going all speculative in a factual based thread. I can't help it.

Wow...these are some pretty profound musings. Thank you for making me think.

Funny how things seem to come together every once in awhile. I recently started reading the bible. I only got a few chapters into Genises before I was googling neanderthals to find out our human timeline. This is why I never got far in the bible before, because it raises too many questions for me which challenges my faith. Before, my faith wasn't strong enough to stand up to those challenges but that has changed. I recently found my faith and am finding that this gives me the strength to not only ask the questions, but to find the answers. I am thinking now that we are SUPOSED to do this. If questions aren't asked we will never find the answers and will not be compelled to learn what is we are suposed to learn. I think that will make sense to some of you.

Back to the point of the thread. I think this device is yet one more compelling reason to ask oh so many questions that Sinter Klaas has done such a good job of showing....leads to more questions, which we may be surprised with where the answers lie. I am coming to the conclusion that the Bible does not the respect it deserves as the historical account that it is. Oh yes, it is used in religion as a tool and unfortunately has been manipulated this way over the course of our history.....BUT; it is perhaps the greatest source of historical accounts ever accumulated. A person could spend a lifetime studying it and only just begin to unlock some of the answers in it.

We keep looking outward and further and further away for the answers that are right in front of us. It seems we have had a bad case of 'tunnel vision' for a long time and miserably fail to see the bigger picture.

It's as if our brains are simply incapable of looking beyond ourselves and the small miniscule amount of time that we are here. This life, existence is not just about 'us'. We are not the greatest, most intelligent run of our DNA, but a watered-down version. To get the answers to our future we only need to look back, for it does and will repeat itself. Over and over and over again, just like the seasons.

I have pondered on this device existence for some time. I think that perhaps it was plundered by the Greeks. Perhaps from Troy which was wiped by them from the Earth. Who knows what the smiths of Troy came up with during their hundreds of years of their civilization. Advanced civilizations that are lost to less advanced but more war like people are lost to us in time. Those who conquer are not necessarily superior in technology and may care not for the art or science of the conquered.

The stories of various advanced civilizations being overthrown by ravaging hordes of marauders are common throughout the world. The chances I speculate are very good that there are advanced people who have left the Earth during their time for the simplest of reasons.

The Earth is also commonly devastated by big space rocks and big chunks of space ice on a fairly regular basis. These sort of events will also mess up the otherwise nice congruent time-line as far as a continuous flow of history is concerned. Chock up lost civilizations and and misplaced technology to civilization ending events such as the ones I outline perhaps something else.

I have also pondered that any civilization in a matter of just a few generations can go beyond the abilities of all others in the region. Look at Europe in the end of the 19th century to the beginning of the 20th century. The European culture and its American off shoots changed the face of the world with advancing technology. From Horse and Buggies to Rockets to the Moon from 1890-1950. That is just 3 generations.

I wonder how many civilizations in our past history that have been separated from all the others for 3 generations or more might have achieved a technological advance of this magnitude.

reply to post by prepared4truth
It’s not dated. We still pay close attention to the stars. only now they gaze upon the T V. and see celebrity stars.

The big question seems to be why...

Every ancient culture seemed to pay *close attention* to the heavens. Many, in fact, patterned their most prized constructions (temples, etc.) after constellations. In Egypt, the three main pyramids form the three stars of Orion's belt, and I believe several other structures seemingly randomly placed "out in the middle of nowhere" fill the appropriate positions to complete the constellation of Orion. Angkhor Wat (sp) in Cambodia is laid-out according to the positions of the stars in the Dragon Constellation. There are sites in South America, created by the Mayans and other Pre-Columbian civilizations that mirror constellations. A book that makes all of this interesting is "Heaven's Mirror," by Graham Hancock.

The builders of Stonghenge in Britain and LeGrange in Frace seemed to have astronomy in mind, as well as the alignment of beams of sunlight during the solstices and equinoxes. Solstices being either the longest or shortest days of the year; equinoxes being the two days where the length of day equals the length of night. I belive that the Chichen Itza in South America is set to have a "plumed serpent" shape made of shadows and steps (of the step pyramid dedicated to Kukulkan (they're version of Quetzlcoutl -the winged serpent god) appear on the spring and autumn equinoxes.

For some reason unknown to open society and public academia, the ancients watched the skies with much interest. Current scientific dogma limits their interest to the simple need for planing the planting and harvesting of crops. While that might be true, one would imagine that after several hundreds of years, they would have come up with a calendar. In fact, they most likely did. So why the focus on constellations and the skies? Perhaps people who could predict eclipses were seen to possess "great power." I can see a scene from back then: "Kill them all except the priest, for he is the only one who knows when the moon will eat the sun!"

Perhaps the DATE affected things... Perhpas there is more to astrology than we have been conditioned to believe? Presidents and many of the wealthiest people in the world seek the guidance of mystics, astrologers and the like. Perhaps there really *is* something to this realm, and maybe that is why the "average" person has been taught there is nothing to it, that it's a sham? Maybe knowing the exact positions of the planets and the solar system in relation to the plane of the galaxy can affect how events unfold? It is true, from what hospital workers and policemen say, that during the full moon, a lot of people happen to go somewhat looney.

The ancients KNEW *something* that we don't know. For, they moved large stones, weighing HUNDREDS OF TONS, they stood up obelisks weighing HUNDREDS OF TONS. They did this without modern equipment that we take for granted. Even with our modern equipment and tools, *we* would have a hard time replicating their efforts.

So, we take those two facts: ancients were almost obsessed with the stars, AND they had the capability to move stones weighing hundreds of tons and align them with high precision... Is there a connection? And then an anomalous puzzle in the form of the Antikythera machine arrives... hinting, whispering... caressing our thoughts with seductive ponder about a mysterious, wondrous past....

reply to post by tauristercus

When you stop to really consider the ramifications resulting from the existence of the Antikythera device for the degree of actual Greek scientific, mathematical and technological knowledge circa 100 - 200 B.C., and then compare it to the classically accepted status of Greek knowledge for that time period, there is an obvious incongruity.

heh, no wonder, knowledge was from Ancient Civilization & only a few persons had it. in short, to say Greek knowledge ain't correct at all

Originally posted by trailertrash
reply to post by tauristercus

 

The word now is that this gizmo dates back to ancient Sumeria... Sorry I forgot the link. In other words the Greeks may have had it, maybe even used it, but they didn't make it.

edit on 12-12-2010 by trailertrash because: typo

Yup I saw a program recently that had traced it to there, they seemed of the opinion that there was a whole workshop producing these things - you have to bear in mind that in those days one of the main areas of knowledge was the keeping of calenders, feast days, holy days, planting seasons and such, they regarded the celestial bodies as gods and it was of the utmost importance to have knowledge of thier motions - people devoted thier whole lives and earned thier living from doing just this!