Five Monkeys

reply to post by Kandinsky


You put this very well. I think it is clever and interesting but shallow and pessimistic at the same time. I think it is a poor message and I don't think monkeys would behave that way. Having been born in the Year of the Monkey, I have some insight into that

Originally posted by GirlGenius
reply to post by tim3lord

 

I think you are missing my point. The video is misleading as it is presented as if it were fact.

GG, consider the following parable/allegory I imagined and wrote a little while back. Now someone could go and make a video of it if they wished to in order to simply present it in the same way. That doesn't mean they are presenting it as fact, it is simply another way to express the same thing. Now in the case of the Five Monkeys just as in my parable, one is clearly free to accept it or reject it on merit, but neither have to be scientifically established to be considered. Much of human insight and wisdom have been passed on in this form.

reply to post by harrytuttle


Maybe what you are, but not me and not a lot of others I know! No wonder we are in such bad shape - we need to empower each other instead of calling "sheep". I get so sick of people shaking heads and complaining about the sheeple masses rather than stepping up to the plate and grabbing that banana!

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Well at least the first set of monkeys got a couple showers. Now they are just dirty, bruised and starving.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


These are completely different, IMO. The 5 monkeys parable has been all over the Internet and portrayed as fact. The research experiment is oft referred to though never cited. Although, the video you found did not mention the experiment, the context is there and the wording misleading.

Your little story was obviously just a story. Quite different.

Regardless, that is not an important point. What is troubling is that people think the 5 monkeys "allegory" is somehow explanatory and representative -- and many people believe it has been experimentally proven because the hoax on this one is widespread.

This is a little similar to the 100 monkey effect spoken about in the movie "Collapse" with Michael C. Ruppert.

He tells the story around the 9:00 minute mark.
The 100 Monkey

reply to post by schrodingers dog


awesome post!!!

I know..short post police etc..this is the 2nd line

I do believe the wheels are coming off the train lol.

Ink blots guys, ink blots.

Be it cure or placebo if it works who cares how it works. We are beggars on the street of self awareness. Arguing about a morsel of food that has just been dropped on to your lap I believe is a waste of time.

It's an allegory or a metaphor. Humans are too unique for any one scientific model to describe. We are complex paradoxical things indeed.

The story about the monkeys is designed to make you stop and think about your behavior. Who cares if it was written by a 3 toed blind drunk Irishman. The details of it creation does not diminish it's effect. It's designed to make you think and it has clearly done it's job because that is what people are doing in this thread.

So let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is much to learn and not a lot of time to learn it in.

reply to post by GirlGenius


Couldn't have said it better myself!
The whole time I was watching that video I could not relate to what was going on. All I could think was screw those other monkeys they could try and hold me down but I'll be dammed if I don't get that banana.

Originally posted by Evil3unnie
reply to post by GirlGenius

 

Couldn't have said it better myself!
The whole time I was watching that video I could not relate to what was going on. All I could think was screw those other monkeys they could try and hold me down but I'll be dammed if I don't get that banana.

Admirable sentiment but how often are we easily swayed by public opinion. I doubt any of us can truly say we go against the grain on every issue and as much as I agree that everything must exist in balance we must be careful not to disagree just for the sake of having another perspective. By all means let's discuss the flaws in a theory. But let's also discuss the benefits.

I have no problems with the people that do defy the status quo. And I don't think anybody will disagree that blind obedience is dangerous to any society. But I believe the OP has a very strong point in regards to how the MAJORITY of society behaves.

An example. Family fueds and even fundermental religions and all other groups of people in similar circumstances all share one common trait. They all indoctrinate the new recruits with the old ideologies. This is the problem the video is referring to. If I have misinterpreted it then please accept my apology. I am but a monkey learning new traits.

My good friend,

reply to post by schrodingers dog


A truely superb post

One of the links in the video gave a good link to a guy who explains the reasoning behind this " scientific test ", which I thought would be enjoyed by most

www.youtube.com...

Many thanks indeed,

Be safe be well.

Spiro

Great video. I found it on youtube about a year or so ago.

It made me remember to always question when someone presents you an "either/or argument". This is how TPTB try to control our response. They only present two choices to a problem, when, in fact, there may be a multitude of options.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Great post, I really appreciate where you're coming from. I took part in your last gatekeeper video post and just want to let you know it's individuals like your self that have attracted me to ATS, people who think outside the norm, but still think.

One question, and forgive me if this has been touched upon already, but is the theory that once all the monkeys are replaced they conform for the sake of conforming. Not really knowing why? Or is it that the punishment once given by an existential force is now implemented by the group. In other words it's not that we conform for the sake of conforming, but that we know instead of a" higher power" punishing us it is our peers that will implement it? Like religion, where the " book" tells us that god or the devil will punish us for having sex outside of marriage. We all know that's not going to happen, but we do know if the congregation finds out it or individuals with in will implement the punishment. The book plants the seed with myth and the myth is made reality by the willing congregation

reply to post by Theorytripper


First of all thank you...

I will try to address the question from a existential/metaphysical point of view as I cannot speak intelligently to any relevant behavioral elements which may well be genetically passed along.

Let's ask ourselves this question ... we are driving in the desert or midwest country road in the middle of the night. We come up on an intersection with a stop sign. As we approach we can see all around that there isn't a car to be seen in any direction, not a headlight, nothing. There's also nowhere for a police trap. Yet a great deal of folks will still come to a complete stop in such a situation. Why stop? Slow down sure to make sure that it's safe but in reality it's not going to get safer simply because one might come to a complete stop.

The analogy has it's flaws, all analogies do, but I make it to point out that certain behaviors we adopt are conditioned onto us from birth. There are conditioned onto to us by people who had them conditioned onto them. We rarely stop and ask ourselves if the behavior is reasonable or why we are doing it in the first place. We simply do it out of momentum and habit.

Now with the driving example the consequence is harmless, we just happened to waste a few seconds without gaining any safety or anything really. But if one were to extrapolate across the range of all our behaviors, we will find a great deal that are based in an equally misperceived premise, and in many cases they are the root of a great deal of suffering, both for ourselves and those around us.

I hope that made a little sense.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Star & Flag for Schrodingers dog. Thought-provoking video. More true than not.

Thanks to Alethea's post for reminding me of that classic, "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson.

Thanks to Harrytuttle, for the other monkey video -- laugh-out-loud funny (okay, I have a slightly twisted sense of humor).

Methinks Kandinsky is over-thinking this and missing the point.

Also good posts by Atlasastro & TiM3LoRd.

SeaWind

Please someone explain, why is the new monkey assaulted? because the other monkeys don't want the new monkey to be wet too? If it is that way, then the original monkeys cares about the new monkey?

reply to post by schrodingers dog


I think that does answer the question. The answer is the latter option that we consciously take part. I would say that in your analogy when we stop we are aware of the absurdity of the situation. We know we are doing it out of habit, but we do it non the less. It's not like we stop like a robot because it's what we have to do in that situation. I would go further to say not all subjects will stop. Many will slow down and not come to a complete stop before going through the intersection.

I wouldn't call that, a flaw in the analogy though, I would say it gives an insight that the paradigm can be broken. Eventhough it does have a powerful effect on the population, it is not complete in it's effect. Which is a good thing.

Even though the analogy of the five monkeys is seriously flawed due to it's simplicity and the assumptions that are made,it does lead many of us that are not of the "five monkey mindset" to explore,even question the conventionality that we as social creatures with a desire in general to belong,face through out our lives.

Maybe one day we all can subscribe to the mindset that we can all be individuals and be safely empower with in it.
If you see the flaws of the five monkey mindset,speak up and expound upon them.

Sorry I couldn't find a good lemmings over the cliff video.


oh,and thank you for making this thread SD.
Now we all are going to get beaten for it.

Interesting little experiment, and so many willing participants. Is this pseudoscience's attempt to control the masses? I think it is important to note that we prescribe to most functions of government out of preferance, not ignorance!

Originally posted by WinnieDaWho
Please someone explain, why is the new monkey assaulted? because the other monkeys don't want the new monkey to be wet too? If it is that way, then the original monkeys cares about the new monkey?

The premise is that the other monkeys get hosed with cold water which one would expect to be an unpleasant experience. Akin to electrocuting the all the monkeys except the one reaching for the prize.

The idea is that after a while the monkeys put one and one together and make the connection that they only get hosed when one of them goes after the bananas. Not wanting to get wet the monkeys make an example of any other who threatens that security.

It's simplistic but serves it's purpose by illustrating how not only group mentality works but also how negative reinforcement can be used to herd people.