Five Monkeys, page 1

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Topic started on 11-12-2010 @ 10:07 PM by schrodingers dog

The five monkey allegory has been around for some time, it is an excellent metaphor on how conditioned momentum sustains itself, snowballs, and is hardly ever questioned. A friend recently sent me this video presentation of it that I found rather sobering ... especially at the end.

YouTube Link

The reason I post this in this forum rather than another is that it seems to me, that the only way to halt any such momentum is by always questioning ourselves and our environment ... questioning it with authenticity, sincerity, and without fear of what we discover in the process.

It is easy to relate this allegory solely within the context of us vs authority. The truth is that sometimes we are the monkeys, sometimes we are the authority, we can even take the part of the water, the stairs, the cage, and indeed, the banana.

Authentic inquiry, in the present moment, will always reveal the part we play ... the rest is up to each one of us.

Cheers!

edit on 11 Dec 2010 by schrodingers dog because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 10:15 PM by LadySkadi

Authentic inquiry, in the present moment, will always reveal the part we play ... the rest is up each one of us.

Cheers!

It's wise to be reminded of such things, now and again. Too many times, we all get caught up in our own little worlds and though we know this lesson (or some version of it) we file it in a compartment somewhere in the back of our mind and do not keep it in the accessible, therefor we don't recognize and understand its relevance to our present life and how we are living it. To stop and question. Look around. See things in a new or different light. It is how we learn and grow.

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 10:18 PM by vjr1113

also works with religion and science no?

great vid

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 10:21 PM by Iamonlyhuman

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Good video but I wish he hadn't added those last 8 words... "And that is how government control is maintained." The reason? Because I like to send videos like this to friends who wouldn't normally think about things like this because they are the monkeys in the red suits! Adding those last 8 words gives my motivations away!

Thanks for posting it...

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 10:24 PM by SLAYER69

reply to post by schrodingers dog

You're on a roll S-Dog.

It's funny, we the monkeys take part in this behavior no matter {so it seems} which side of the fence of an issue we are on. Not realizing that we are and have been taking part while simultaneously accusing others of it.

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 10:26 PM by schrodingers dog

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

It seems the understanding of the narrator is limited by his own bias. In any such situation, where the behavior is conditioned into the mind, the responsibility lies mostly in the hands on the 'monkey' ... for the fact is that it has the power to liberate itself at any moment simply by becoming aware of itself and its environment.

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 10:27 PM by Alethea

reply to post by schrodingers dog

This same philosophy reminds me of the short story entitled "The Lottery".
The plot of the story shows how tradition becomes accepted without question and no one even remembers how it got started. The actions are brutal and senseless but accepted by all because 'that's just the way it's always been".

The Lottery is a classic short story by Shirley Jackson, first published in the June 26, 1948, issue of The New Yorker.[1] Written the same month it was published, it is ranked today as "one of the most famous short stories in the history of American literature."[2]

The magazine and Jackson herself were surprised by the highly negative reader response. Many readers cancelled their subscriptions, and hate mail continued to arrive throughout the summer.[3] The story was banned in the Union of South Africa.[4] Since then, it has been accepted as a classic American short story, subject to many critical interpretations and media adaptations, and it has been taught in schools for decades.[5]

en.wikipedia.org...

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 11:14 PM by atlasastro

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Cool video.

Although, I think we should all remember that some monkeys take the beatings, and still climb the stairs.
And, some monkeys work out that someone is deliberately spraying the water(fear or propoganda about the stairs).

So whilst we all are guilty of acting like five monkeys, there is also a cycle dissent or revolution that effects change.
Monkey Ghandi.
Monkey MLK.
Monkey Jesus.
Monkey Rosa Parks.
To name but a few Monkeys that took to the stairs.

As much as we can learn from watching how we behave like the five monkeys in order to authentically identify what role we play, we have plenty of monkeys to learn from that don't act in that way at all. I think these monkeys are more interesting.
Obviously the video has a point to make, so it is not interested in the behavior of dissenting monkeys, but I think it is worth noting that they do infact exist regardless of the process that the video describes and that we can incorporate that into this:

Authentic inquiry, in the present moment, will always reveal the part we play ... the rest is up each one of us.

Knowing what part you play in a system that is described in the video does not change it. You just simply know what part you are. Whether you are the water, the banana, the beaters or the one to consider trying the stairs.
To change it, you need to know that you don't have to play any of those parts at all.

edit on 11/12/10 by atlasastro because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 11:19 PM by harrytuttle

The monkey analogy may not be so far from reality as you might think.

YouTube Link

reply posted on 11-12-2010 @ 11:20 PM by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by atlasastro
reply to post by schrodingers dog

Knowing what part you play in a system that is described in the video does not change it. You just simply know what part you are. Whether you are the water, the banana, the beaters or the one to consider trying the stairs.
To change it, you need to know that you don't have to play any of those parts at all.

That is absolutely correct and I agree completely ... but one cannot act accordingly before one is aware, therefore awareness comes first action second. Many people haven't stopped their momentum to gain that awareness, and shockingly others have and still choose to remain in that condition ... hence why I said:

the rest is up to each one of us.

edit on 11 Dec 2010 by schrodingers dog because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 12:05 AM by atlasastro

Thank you for the reply.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
That is absolutely correct and I agree completely ... but one cannot act accordingly before one is aware, therefore awareness comes first action second.

That is true. Don't get me wrong, the awareness you speak of is essential. I guess what I was saying is that awareness does not generate action by itself, that is why the monkeys that climb the stairs are important IMHO. Because even though you are aware of the part you play in the scenario, you still must also become aware that you do not have to play that part. Knowing who you are is not the same as knowing you can become someone else.
Stopping momentum then leads to what momentum will this new awareness gain now?
I think, if we want to stop any momentum, we must also consider what momentum we will generate after self awareness is attained in relation to a situation like the video details.
Otherwise self awareness is pointless as what the video is suggesting is that the system described is an unquestioned self repeating exercise that is detrimental to anyone who steps outside of a role. A role that is defined by its potential to effect others that is induced by an outside source, but enforced within by a population effect by that source.

You can be self aware in spite of all of that. And still maintain the momentum of such a negative system.

Many people haven't stopped their momentum to gain that awareness, and shockingly others have and still choose to remain in that condition ... hence why I said:

the rest is up each one of us.

I don't necessarily agree that momentum needs to be stopped, although I think it should be in order to gain a proper understanding, but that it can also be simply given a different direction by a new role suddenly appearing.

It is shocking though that some can become aware of what they are in terms of a scenario like the video details and yet they neither stop or seek a different role. I think that is a point the conclusion the video possibly offers, and I think it can also refer to monkeys that are self aware in a system like the video and still choose to be part of the system. I think this is one way you could interpret the video as it offers us an example of a law enforcement officer beating someone.

edit on 12/12/10 by atlasastro because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 08:11 AM by adam76

really cool video never seen it. WoW! how that is so true

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 08:15 AM by suigeneris

It's always been this way - There is a story of a woman who always cut the end off of a ham before putting it in the oven. Her daughter asked one day why she did that and she answered that her own mother had taught her to do it that way. So the daughter asked her grandmother who replied that her mother had done it that way. Of course they had to find out the reason so they asked the great grandmother. Smiling she said quite matter of factly, "I didn't have a pan big enough to fit the whole thing." There is nothing that has always been that way. It all started somewhere and usually for some practical reason.

Isn't it amazing how we will watch and learn? Repeating the steps of others, without knowing why we do it?
I tell this story to my kids, hoping it will teach them to think and to question why things are done this way or that.
www.articlecity.com...

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 10:14 AM by GirlGenius

Glad you posted, OP. I've always wondered about this and whether or not it is a myth or hoax. I wanted to show my students, but I needed the source and could never find it. Maybe someone here can help...

blog.stsaint.com...

In any case, I think it is hilarious that an experiment whose goal is to point out how people will blindly believe what they are told is repeatedly referenced as fact without a proper source.

edit on 12-12-2010 by GirlGenius because: quote

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 10:25 AM by schrodingers dog

reply to post by GirlGenius

Mmm, from a scientific point of view the author is absolutely correct, where he is mistaken is that his line of thinking is premised on the value of the story being related to science. It is a metaphor, and just like many other metaphors, allegories, parables, the provenance and original author is often lost in time. Probably the reason I didn't post this in the science forum.

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 10:45 AM by GirlGenius

reply to post by schrodingers dog

Good point, but you are not getting off that easily! The narrator presents the material as if it is fact, step-by-step, but it's not been established. In my opinion, this should be filed in the hoax bin. I prefer the unpretentious story of the mom cutting off the end of the ham (presented by another poster).

Given enough hunger, a new monkey could scoot up the stairs before he was stopped by the unruly brainwashed crowd. The banana would be seized and eaten, and the spell broken. I think it would only be a matter of time before one busted out of the mold and party over. Propaganda like this, presented as fact, gives us the idea that we are all powerless sheep and helpless in the face of our conditioning. I'd love to see a comparative psychologist try to test this. It is reminiscent of the Asche experiments on social conformity, but there were always a number of dissenters in that one. This allegory dead ends and I don't like the outcome, nor do I think it would stand up to experimental testing under the right conditions. Sometimes I think stuff like this is planted to disempower us!

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 10:48 AM by tim3lord

great analogy, Wish there was more could add but the only thing that comes to mind is getting hosed with cold water.

all jokes aside as has been stated in previous posts its up to the individual to determine the level of awareness we have and then move forward from there. By far the hardest thing is breaking old habits no matter what they are but by the grace of whatever entity gave life to this creation and a little help from the true believers here im getting there. slowly but surely.

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 12:34 PM by tim3lord

Originally posted by GirlGenius
reply to post by schrodingers dog

Good point, but you are not getting off that easily! The narrator presents the material as if it is fact, step-by-step, but it's not been established. In my opinion, this should be filed in the hoax bin. I prefer the unpretentious story of the mom cutting off the end of the ham (presented by another poster).

Given enough hunger, a new monkey could scoot up the stairs before he was stopped by the unruly brainwashed crowd. The banana would be seized and eaten, and the spell broken. I think it would only be a matter of time before one busted out of the mold and party over. Propaganda like this, presented as fact, gives us the idea that we are all powerless sheep and helpless in the face of our conditioning. I'd love to see a comparative psychologist try to test this. It is reminiscent of the Asche experiments on social conformity, but there were always a number of dissenters in that one. This allegory dead ends and I don't like the outcome, nor do I think it would stand up to experimental testing under the right conditions. Sometimes I think stuff like this is planted to disempower us!

i think you might be missing the point. i dont think the OP is suggesting this is a fact. based on my estimation of the video its a way to describe human nature and how good we are at keeping each other in check. but thats just my interpretation of it.

life for the most part is an ink blot....people only see what they want to see.

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 02:23 PM by Kandinsky

I'm almost ashamed to say that I hadn't heard of this experiment before and have done some digging to read it in its original context. Without luck, I might add. The study is a chapter of a book that's unavailable online. What I have found is that the study was carried out by a G R Stephenson in 1967 and has since been sorta usurped by management and marketing consultants.

The message in the video seems to me a very pessimistic and impotent view of the way we acquire behaviour patterns. Hell, we might just as well give up and throw our lot in with the whole BS system?! It suggests that behaviour is static and overlooks all the pioneers and edge-surfers that lead the way for the rest of the world. The thing is, as I see it, life is in constant flux and people and even monkeys are always behaving in ways that are perpendicular to the way everyone else is carrying on.

Five monkeys? Why five? What might happen if there were six or five hundred? In real life, how often does this scenario occur? Rather, it seems that history is full of individuals (supporters too) sailing against the wind and ignoring the detractors and 'cold water.' When we sit down for dinner and pick up a knife and fork, we owe a big thanks to some primate squatted down on some African savannah a couple million years ago as she chipped a sharp edge on a rock in her hand. That same free-thinking rebel is one of the reasons why we are typing out our thoughts and BS (right or wrong) on ATS today.

Don't misunderstand me; I get the message in the video and accept it as an analogy of why social change is usually behind the curve of where we want it to be. I'm just suggesting the message is lacking in substance...it's designed to get heads nodding sagely, but it's kinda shallow too.

reply posted on 12-12-2010 @ 02:45 PM by GirlGenius

reply to post by tim3lord

I think you are missing my point. The video is misleading as it is presented as if it were fact. The premise of the video is anything but proven. I don't think the monkeys would behave that way. It's a very dubious analogy!

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