Why do finds of ancient evidence get buried totally while ridiculously impossible histories get play

Originally posted by Logarock

I dont know why this person gos on here. The only requirment would be to calculate volume removed from known pits. Very simple. I see that they offer ZERO calculations on the matter save for this crazy figure.

Apparently, you didn't read (or didn't understand) the article then. The author explains very clearly what I have already stated - that there are no reliable estimates of how much copper was mined. "This crazy figure" is crazy alright, but it's one of the estimates that's out there, just like the ones you claim.

Originally posted by LogarockTo gain just a slight picture of how stupid this all is, had the total amount of copper dug up out the area only been 25 ton/50,000lbs (lets say 50 pickup truck loads) we still have only a fraction of this represented in north american mound builder site digs.

As even she asks "where is all the garbage"? So where is all the copper? Trade to central america? The mound builders culture? Still dont think that between North and Central America not over a ton (or 2? and very liberal allowance) of copper has been found in any form in total at digs of any kind. And thats taking it down to a figure of 25 tons removed from the pits in question.

Makes me wonder, have you ever questioned why we don't have every single stone tool ever manufactured by humans since the advent of stone technology? IOW, what exactly is the justification for your apparent belief that we should be able to account for even a small fraction of this copper?

Anyway, copper corrodes at about 1.5 to almost 2 grams per year per square meter of exposure. Many artifacts would be gone by now through corrosion.

While corrosion rates exhibit a continuous decrease with exposure time, the yearly runoff rates are independent of time. Depending on starting months the yearly copper runoff rates ranged from 1.1 to 1.7 g m−2 y−1 for the urban site, and from 0.6 to 1.0 g m−2 y−1 for the rural site. These seasonal variations were primarily attributed to differences in precipitation quantity and environmental characteristics. Runoff rates are significantly lower than corrosion rates as long as the adhering copper patina is growing with exposure time.

Source


Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Makes me wonder, have you ever questioned why we don't have every single stone tool ever manufactured by humans since the advent of stone technology? IOW, what exactly is the justification for your apparent belief that we should be able to account for even a small fraction of this copper?

Every single stone tool? The writer in question asked the question. The point made is that ZERO Nortic "trash" has been found (save for the Kensington Stone, my add, lol) and a great argument based on that (is debatable) then by the same when we can only account for a very very small fraction of the copper known to be mined we still call the mound cultures a "copper culture" based on this small % of jewelry, a few pan pipes, some art work found in a few mounds and a few hundred copper celts all of which could have been dug from a single pit.

Isle Royale Copper Mine Discription

See Pages 384, 385 and 386. This is just the copper pits at Isle Royal. A considerable operation.

Originally posted by Harte

Also, go any examples of Proto Sinaitic in America that are not from a Marine Biologist?

Harte

edit on 12/14/2010 by Harte because: Addendum

edit on 12/14/2010 by Harte because: (no reason given)

Hart as far as I know a certain Marine Biologist has or had never said anything about the Proto Sinaitic being found in the US. And at that his clames of Ogam being found in the US were not in question so much as his readings were. The leading Ogam schooler in Ireland only questioned a proper reading and never questioned Ogam in the US.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Those figures can change...here's a pretty good piece on sorting out the mythology:

The State of Our Knowledge About Ancient Copper Mining in Michigan
The Michigan Archaeologist 41(2-3):119-138.Susan R. Martin 1995

Popular literature contributes to the persistence of fantasy and mythology surrounding ancient copper mining in Michigan. This paper points out some of the major elements of mis-statement and myth revealed in current popular books, and suggests why they are fallacious, using current archaeological data about copper mining as counterpoint. www.ramtops.co.uk...

Although...I did hear tell of a trace element analysis of some precolumbian old-world copper that revealed it to be of New World origin. Think I can track that sucker down? I may even have had a copy of the paper, somewhere. Anyway...on with your squabbling.

Johnny, this Susan Martin is fast to point out the racist and nationalistic nature of the "fantastic archaeologists" while never giving credit to the true origins....that being your majior and respected archaeologists from say 1830 untill the 1920s. All one has to do is read a few of the works of early archaeologist, thier papers, thier ideas to find that they were the ones that gave birth to what is now tossed at the feet of the "fantastic archaelolgists". I have even see disclaimers on line warning that so and so was a person of thier time and please try to wade through all the suggestions...ect..ect...we would toss him under the bus like so many others ut the fact it is his foundation we are standing on now....ect ect....bunch of hypocrites.

The moderns are also very good at tossing some of their old fathers under the bus when it is clear they helped in the formation and indulged in "myth" back in thier day. In fact you will find that even in disagrement the tone was greatly more civil and Indulgent than the current snideness found in the politically correct moderns.

reply to post by Logarock

As even she asks "where is all the garbage"? So where is all the copper? Trade to central america? The mound builders culture? Still dont think that between North and Central America not over a ton (or 2? and very liberal allowance) of copper has been found in any form in total at digs of any kind. And thats taking it down to a figure of 25 tons removed from the pits in question.

I can see where you're coming from here, but it isn't as straightforward as trying to quantify the copper removed and then looking for the produced copper artefacts to an equivalent weight. In southern England and Wales , the copper mines supplied Northern Europe for centuries during the Bronze Age. It was a valuable commodity and would be used and re-used. It wasn't a 'disposable society' of mass-production like today.

The same applies to Egypt. The reign of Ramses III has records detailing huge imports of copper and other metals. Copper was used for slabing saws, drills, cold chisels and even medical instruments. We know they went through tons of copper yet there are relatively few examples surviving. When tools had served their use or become too used, they'd be melted down and re-used again.

If the Harris Papyrus is to be believed (excepting any hyperbole!), they imported 100s of kg of gold and decorated the place in a style seldom matched in ostentatious pomp until pimp culture in the 70s. Despite the huge amounts of gold accounted for in the records, where has it all gone? It's been melted down and re-used or become part of the currency over centuries.

I imagine North America was no less efficient at recycling as any where else by necessity...

Scrap Value

For thousands of years, copper and copper alloys have been recycled. This has been a normal economic practice, even if regretted by some. One of the wonders of the old world, the Colossus of Rhodes, a statue spanning the entrance to Rhodes Harbour, was said to have been made of copper. No trace of it remains since it was recycled to make useful artefacts.

In the Middle Ages it was common that after a war the bronze cannons were melted down to make more useful items. In times of war even church bells were used to produce cannon. T

he entire economy of the copper and copper alloy industry is dependent on the economic recycling of any surplus products. There is a wide range of copper based materials made for a large variety of applications. To use the most suitable and cheapest feedstock for making components gives the most economic cost price for the material.

source

All of the copper found in North American sites of native remains could be put into one Caravel type ship with room left over. The Caravel is about the same make up of the old Phoenician long range trading ships.

Caravels (fig.1) were high, square-rigged ships about 60-70 ft long, with 50-70 tons cargo capacity. Other examples were the Niña and the Pinta of Columbus’s first voyage (see AR 1,3 p.39). By July 30 the Spaniards had reached the Bay Islands off Honduras, where they encountered Maya-like traders carrying textiles, cacao beans, and copper implements in large canoes with awnings (see AR 2,1, p.33).

And just why pray tell did the locals when seeing these ships crewed by white men bring out trade goods and copper? I mean if they had never seen a white man or his ship before.

Lost Spanish caravel found in Panama may be from 4th Voyage of Columbus

reply to post by Logarock

And just why pray tell did the locals when seeing these ships crewed by white men bring out trade goods and copper? I mean if they had never seen a white man or his ship before.

....because trade is an intrinsic part of any society?

Originally posted by Logarock
All one has to do is read a few of the works of early archaeologist, thier papers, thier ideas to find that they were the ones that gave birth to what is now tossed at the feet of the "fantastic archaelolgists". I have even see disclaimers on line warning that so and so was a person of thier time and please try to wade through all the suggestions...ect..ect...we would toss him under the bus like so many others ut the fact it is his foundation we are standing on now....ect ect....bunch of hypocrites.

I might make the point that this is precisely why it is important to provide a context for archaeological material...even OOPARTS. If a site has been properly excavated, and artifacts and features precisely mapped within the matrix, then one may return to the site reports centuries later and examine the resources with new eyes and/or technology.

In a world more concerned about Christianity, as well as robbing the indigenous peoples of their lands, those old-time archaeologists interpreted what they saw in a different manner. Some of that we can go back and fix. Some of it remains to fuel a twenty-first century fantasy world with nineteenth century anachronisms.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

In a world more concerned about Christianity, as well as robbing the indigenous peoples of their lands, those old-time archaeologists interpreted what they saw in a different manner. Some of that we can go back and fix. Some of it remains to fuel a twenty-first century fantasy world with nineteenth century anachronisms.

Good point. Bishop Diego de Landa springs to mind here. Bishop and Mayan historian; he burned a couple of dozen codices and an alleged 5000 'idols' to put an end their heathenism. link

Ignorance and greedy bigotry have far more to answer for than the 57 flavours of Vatican conspiracies.

Originally posted by Kandinsky

I can see where you're coming from here, but it isn't as straightforward as trying to quantify the copper removed and then looking for the produced copper artefacts to an equivalent weight. In southern England and Wales , the copper mines supplied Northern Europe for centuries during the Bronze Age. It was a valuable commodity and would be used and re-used. It wasn't a 'disposable society' of mass-production like today.

The same applies to Egypt. The reign of Ramses III has records detailing huge imports of copper and other metals. Copper was used for slabing saws, drills, cold chisels and even medical instruments. We know they went through tons of copper yet there are relatively few examples surviving. When tools had served their use or become too used, they'd be melted down and re-used again.

If the Harris Papyrus is to be believed (excepting any hyperbole!), they imported 100s of kg of gold and decorated the place in a style seldom matched in ostentatious pomp until pimp culture in the 70s. Despite the huge amounts of gold accounted for in the records, where has it all gone? It's been melted down and re-used or become part of the currency over centuries.

I imagine North America was no less efficient at recycling as any where else by necessity...

When armies were defeted back in the day their metal was gathered up. At some point in the US, even if we consider that some tribes were outfited with copper spear heads (which have been found in very small numbers) ect folks just stoped off with copper production. There is no evidence that some tribes used large numbers of copper spears or axes (which have been found in small numbers in graves) but its hard to belivve that at some point somewhere the tribes that could get copper didnt make large use of it as weapons. Digs would indicate that if large use of copper weapons where made they were used by only limited groups in certain areas of the country. These limited findings indicates a good deal of control of copper resourses and probably technology which indicates the possiblilty of an outside influence trading cooper for the heavy demand in overseas use. When that influnce failed so did the use of copper.

To your point there was no gathering up copper for reuse here in the US. There was no passing down of its use and manufacture after a certain point. This suggests that a small number even knew how to find it and what to do with it even if they knew. That weapons were found in graves here is suggestive of the grave goods to the underworld....food, weapons to help on the way throught the underworld...as you find in europe and the east.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

In a world more concerned about Christianity, as well as robbing the indigenous peoples of their lands, those old-time archaeologists interpreted what they saw in a different manner. Some of that we can go back and fix. Some of it remains to fuel a twenty-first century fantasy world with nineteenth century anachronisms.

Yea right...or a convenient excuse to toss out the baby and the bathwater. You want to see twenty first century fantasy watch Dancing with Wolves or Medicine Woman. Or go to the local histoical museum and look at thier progression of man displays.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by Logarock

 

And just why pray tell did the locals when seeing these ships crewed by white men bring out trade goods and copper? I mean if they had never seen a white man or his ship before.

....because trade is an intrinsic part of any society?

Or they knew white man likes copper and knew what to do with it. But yes to humor you ...trade..it goes without saying. But also begs the observation that they had traded with ships and whites before.

reply to post by Logarock

Or they knew white man likes copper and knew what to do with it. But yes to humor you ...trade..it goes without saying. But also begs the observation that they had traded with ships and whites before.

Why 'humor' me? The reply was perfectly reasonable and friendly. The links were intended to be informative.

The Caravel link only shows islanders coming to meet the Spanish with goods that they held as valuable...

By July 30 the Spaniards had reached the Bay Islands off Honduras, where they encountered Maya-like traders carrying textiles, cacao beans, and copper implements in large canoes with awnings (see AR 2,1, p.33).

link

The early incursions into NW Africa by Europeans were similarly met with trade. I'd have to dig out the paper, but the Norse voyages that pre-dated Columbus also were met with the locals offering trade. Sir David Attenborough took part in an expedition to contact a 'mythical' tribe in the forests of N Africa in the 60s. They embarked on a weeks long journey into uncharted territory. It took a long time and the meeting was brief. What enabled the contact was the team leaving gifts for the tribe. The tribe took the gifts and left food in return. Attenborough noted how the expression of a 'nod and raised eyebrows' was instantly recognisable when language was impossible. A couple of S American 'lost tribes' respond with deadly force and who can blame them?!

The point here is that it isn't unusual for societies and cultures to offer a fig leaf of trade to strangers who come in numbers. It needn't suggest that they are used to trade with Europeans, but highlights a common human trait that surpasses boundaries. In the case of the Caravel, if the islanders had had prior dealings with the Spanish, they probably would not have been so keen to meet them again.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
In a world more concerned about Christianity, as well as robbing the indigenous peoples of their lands, those old-time archaeologists interpreted what they saw in a different manner. Some of that we can go back and fix. Some of it remains to fuel a twenty-first century fantasy world with nineteenth century anachronisms.

Yea right...or a convenient excuse to toss out the baby and the bathwater. You want to see twenty first century fantasy watch Dancing with Wolves or Medicine Woman. Or go to the local histoical museum and look at thier progression of man displays.

I don't see your point. The movies are entertainment. My statement regarding changing attitudes and interpretations stands. I, myself, am associated with a local historical museum and also dealing with its archaeological collection...and the local indigenous peoples. So what am I supposed to get out of that statement of yours? You know talk is rather cheap and any fool can cite the ubiquitous 'some guy on the net'.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Well so many get there backs up when folks talk about whites or others coming here and teaching the locals anything. The topic is full of political feelings that sort of hamper a good look sometimes.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Well so many get there backs up when folks talk about whites or others coming here and teaching the locals anything. The topic is full of political feelings that sort of hamper a good look sometimes.

If you're talking about the interaction between white archaeologists and First Nations, that has changed dramatically and continues to do so. You'll note a trend in publications such as the following articles in the Ontario Archaeological Society newsletter:
ONTARIO ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOCIETY TASK FORCE ON THE DRAFT TECHNICAL BULLETIN “ENGAGING ABORIGINAL COMMUNITIES IN ARCHAEOLOGY”
or
WITH TRUE SPIRIT AND INTENT: WILLIAMS TREATY FIRST NATIONS AND THE ASSOCIATION OF PROFESSIONAL ARCHAEOLOGISTS BREAK NEW GROUND

If you want to know what is currently going on in the field, and on the Rez, you'd better plug in because you can't keep citing yesterday's news.

Bottom line? OOPARTS are not the answer...they are a great starting point. But...they must be considered in their own context, and their limitations must be recognised.

You get an investigator whose reputation is beyond reproach, you get an artifact excavated in a sealed context with clear stratification, you have multiple dating techniques in agreement, then you have a serious shot at changing history. You have a guy with a curio in his hand saying "I found it in a hole"...well, in a world where archaeology is more than a just a planning and development issue, you might get the time of day. But right now chances are slim.

And if you want it any different, talk to your lawmakers because they dole out the tax dollars.

Is the link the OP posted, working for anybody else atm?

Is Carbon Dating Accurate?
some 80 percent of archeaologists won't use it so any evidence they have provided using it is a reliable as dirt.

Is carbon dating accurate? Only to a certain extent. In order for carbon dating to be accurate, we must know what the ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14 was in the environment in which our specimen lived during its lifetime. Unfortunately the ratio of carbon-12 to carbon-14 has yet to reach a state of equilibrium in our atmosphere; there is more carbon-14 in the air today than there was thousands of years ago. Furthermore, the ratio is known to fluctuate significantly over relatively short periods of time (e.g. during the industrial revolution more carbon-12 was being produced offsetting the ratio a bit).

Many scientists will use carbon dating test results to back up their position if the results agree with their preconceived theories. But if the carbon dating results actually conflict with their ideas, they aren't too concerned. "This attitude is clearly reflected in a regrettably common practice: when a radiocarbon date agrees with the expectations of the excavator it appears in the main text of the site report; if it is slightly discrepant it is relegated to a footnote; if it seriously conflicts it is left out altogether." (Peter James, et al. (I. J. Thorpe, Nikos Kokkinos, Robert Morkot and John Frankish), Preface to Centuries of Darkness, 1991)

www.allaboutarchaeology.org...

That right there messes up any debunking of oopas with that type of dating
oooopsi
Just shows why when confronted by a list like the one in the OP one must use their OWN discernment judiciously


www.allaboutarchaeology.org...

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

I might make the point that this is precisely why it is important to provide a context for archaeological material...even OOPARTS. If a site has been properly excavated, and artifacts and features precisely mapped within the matrix, then one may return to the site reports centuries later and examine the resources with new eyes and/or technology.

gee thats exactly what lee and his crew did
but it didn't count that time
............................................................................................................................................
After the archeologists dug up the battle of Custers last stand, and found the white official version was a complete load of poo and the Indians version was exactly corect, you would think science and the community at large would have started taking a more balanvce approach to history then they have.

scientists have the same problem hucksters have
eating and keeping a roof over their heads, not to mention religios and political reasons,
and so they have from time to time turned out to be much less than accurate.

Originally posted by Danbones
That right there messes up any debunking of oopas with that type of dating
oooopsi

...which is why it is said that one date is no date. It is, however, known where C14 dates are fuzzy and that is taken into account.

No comment on my requirements for an OOPART to be taken seriously?