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Wouldn't Federal Tax Cuts to the wealthy really be a welfare benefit aimed at the wrong demographic

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posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:35 PM
reply to post by Gorman91

People like you will get angry, revolt, and the country will collapse.

You obviously know nothing about me. Why not come back in 20 years when you've grown up, and have learned to stop making wild assumptions? As a retired tenured professor, I've made my life, and have no need to revolt. I do my "revolting at the ballot box. At 19 years of age, you haven't experienced much in life, so why not wait to see how successful you'll be, before bloviating about things of which you have no knowledge. I had students like you, who thought they knew it all. Many of them are now on unemployment lines, as they thought they knew more than their bosses, and couldn't get along with anyone.

posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:18 PM
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

That's great, but I don't care. I do know crap tons. Not everything, but I would say I know at least a little on at least 90% of all knowledge, even if its the most little amount. I'll admit I suck at chemistry and Grammar. That's about it. You are talking to someone who will not change. I know I am right because I've looked into it. Not because I was told. I do not make wild assumptions. I said people like you, not necessarily you.

Now thus far my bountiful skills and knowledge in numerous fields has supplied me with what I need to go on in life quite well, and I don't see that changing any time soon. Unfortunately for you, you are wrong.

Age does not bring wisdom, and experience does not always take 50 years to come. I have both in sufficient quantities. I fail to see why youth = dumb. Sure they're plenty of Darwin awards for the youth, but I am not one.

Like I said, my generation is different. Because we have the continuum of all human knowledge at our finger tips. We'll know more by 30 than you could have physically learned by 70.

Your degrees and what you've earned are titles. And titles just mean you stuck with the same stuff long enough to be, in theory, and expert in what you do. But it's just a title. And thus far in my short life, most people with titles fall far from what they actually are suppose to say about a person. Thus I reject titles as meaning anything important, other than you've lingered in the same stuff for a long time. Professor, from what I've seen, just means you've done the same stuff over and over long enough that maybe if they put you with a bunch of kids, they'll learn something from it. Few professors I've met actually know much or are capable of much thought. The overwhelming majority are good for a few things and that's about it. I'm happy to be part of a generation that is probably on the precedents of a new renaissance due to the shear quantity able to be learned. The generation before mine pretty much has not shown themselves to be a good one, thus I reject their "intelligence" by just being older. I thought that Confucius crap is what you guys got rid of in your youth.
edit on 14-12-2010 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 11:39 PM
reply to post by Gorman91

But you are assuming all work is the same, and all work is laborious. I think its safe to say that I will never do any sort of manual labor in my career choice, and I think its safe to say that the manual labor I have done for volunteering places never helped me in any sort of way for what I want to do with my life. Now maybe you think that if you never do manual labor than you never really worked, but there are loads and loads of jobs in the world that do not require manual labor.

Ah, well, it is certainly amazing that you, admittedly unwilling to do anything which doesn't involve sitting at a desk, are so knowledgeable about how those who are willing to work think and act. Why, it's almost as though you have ESP!

That is a perfect example of the attitude generally known as 'elitist'. Thank you for demonstrating it for us.

You should know that in America, not all communities are the same. It is sad that for you things suck, but not all people are you.

You argue that not all communities are the same, yet you refuse to acknowledge that there are differences in cost-of-living and economic brackets. You have obviously never set foot in an unfamiliar area, yet you know about it than those who live there.

Oh, the folly of youth!

My life does not suck. My life is not what I am describing. What I am describing is a little of what I have gone through in the past, and a lot of what I am seeing others go through. Unlike you, I have compassion. Unlike you, I consider trying to actually help others a noble thing. Unlike you, I understand that economics is not a zero-sum game, and that success can breed success much more effectively than can snobbery.

I happen to be college-educated as well, in engineering. I worked in that field for about 20 years, culminating in my owning and operating the most prestigious design firm in my region. After a bout with sickness, I started a new career driving a truck (less stressful), where I soon succeeded as well, success being measured by the number of job offers regularly received and the pay scale I was able to obtain. Now, after choosing to retire from that profession and meeting a few more blows from life head-on, I have a project in progress that should take care of me and my children for the rest of their lives... and should that fail or take longer than anticipated, I am again in college pursuing yet another field of study... and am already considering starting another company in that field as well.

Yes, I am unemployed. Yes, I am on unemployment. No, my life does not suck, nor would I describe it as 'fail'. Setbacks are temporary. I have raised two children who are happy, compassionate, well-educated, and ready to take their place in the world. If I had nothing, that would make my life a success... but I also own my own home, along with 40 acres of land and several buildings, several automobiles, and I just built a new workshop complete with a machine shop in it. I owe no one a dime.

Who do you owe? What is your net worth? What have you accomplished, other than blowing your parents' savings?

Every day I go to class with youth just like you: brash, self-assured, and arrogant. They, like you, know more about more than people three times their age with infinitely more experience. And every time I speak to one, I have to excuse myself to go somewhere and laugh at them. For they may know a lot, but they don't know one secret, a secret I will share with you here:

One day, as it happens to everyone, life is going to notice you, slap you hard across the jaw, knock you to the ground, kick you between the legs with a steel-toed boot, and grind your face into the ground. It happens to everyone sooner or later. Life does not discriminate. Some will get up, dust themselves off, and continue on undaunted, many without a word. Others will lie there, unable to comprehend that their world view has been wrong all along, and cry for help.

When that happens, we will see which group you belong to. Not before. I have had it happen a few times; I am still here. ProfessorE has had it happen; he is still here. You have not seen it yet.

Incidentally, you might be interested in the fact that not only did I ace Chemistry... I liked it so much I used advanced chemistry courses as electives. So much for an 'A' being a mark of intelligence I guess.... after all, I'm just a poor dumb lower-class redneck...

What you described as living on the margin is clearly not. Clearly you are bellow what you are making as it is unsure if you can make it. This is bellow the margin.

Clearly you misunderstand... these are things I have seen happen to middle-class Americans recently, people I know personally, due to the recession. I mentioned them to show how out-of-touch with reality you really are.

But, hey, don't concern yourself. Just keep believing what you believe. But remember this reply when you are lying on the ground screaming "But it isn't fair!" after the first encounter with true hardship. One of us 'uneducated failures' will be along and probably help you out.


posted on Dec, 15 2010 @ 01:30 AM
reply to post by TheRedneck

No, not elitist. If they told me to do manual labor, I would. I don't care either way. I'm annoyed that thinking I don't do manual labor means I've never worked. Weather or not I ever do that is not the point. See, get don't twist things.

All communities are not the same. What I have argued is whatever you do better not affect me. That simple. Either don't change it, or create a hybrid system that does not affect either of us. This is what I have argues. I have a right to continue my life style. You do not have a right to take more from me for yours, just as much as I have no right to take from yours for mine. This is the core argument. Flat tax is the only solution. Or, if you must, tax based on spending, not on earnings. Because the Rich don't care if they have to spend a bit lest, the wealthy who don't spend a lot do.

If your life does not suck, I don't care either way. Great for you.

Not snobbery. Protecting my way.

Who do I owe? No one. Or I suppose what my parents owe. But they don't really have to owe anything because we are not in debt. Call us commies, but we share our wealth. The money my parents make benefits us all. The money my siblings make benefits us all. The money I make benefits us all. of course we have money in our name, but when times call, we don't have borders of wealth. Perhaps that is alien to you. But again, your generation is messed up. I share my wealth is school as well. Perhaps it is communist like lifestyle. Don't honestly care. We keep tabs. If I buy you a soda, I can repay it by helping you with an assignment. If you owe me $20. repay it by using your super cool computer to render my 3d files. This is a proxy system though and not really practical unless you live with it. It's very ambiguous. Again, perhaps that is why we are not messed up. We are laxed, share, and happy. Though obviously this is a lot more stronger within a family than classmates. I would not call that snobbery. Of course, those who become lazy are frowned upon. But we don't do anything other than tell them flat out they are lazy.

Your little secret was true for you maybe, but it is not going to become true for me. The reason is simple. I am good at what I do. And the reason for that is because life already did punch me to the ground and tell me I suck. As a result, i made myself better. That was called freshman year of college.

You see, one day you are going to see this generation as you see it rise above you. And we will out do you. And we will know more than you, and we will far outrace you. Because in a world of exponentially exceeding networking, labor, and competition, only the ones willing to adapt succeed. As a result, it is very much so true that the generation after mine will pretty much be unstoppable. Perhaps we will fail, but we certainly are going to go past yours. Yours is a generation of corrupt fools who don't care to work above their base line instincts.

Now where does all that relate to taxes? Fairness. As I said before. You don't have the right to change my way of life for your sake, and I don't have the right for either.

Its going to be great when your generation is out. The logical common sense one of the computer age is far better at life.
edit on 15-12-2010 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 01:54 AM
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posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 04:47 AM
Frankly, I am not decided on the question of Flat vs. Progressive tax. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

In a perfect world, everything electronised and very small tax fraud rate, I would go with progressive tax.
But flat tax has undeniable benefits in the form of decreased incentive to "optimalise" and simplified bureaucracy when dealing with income and tax matters.

Of course, if we want to substitute all current taxes with flat income tax, then forget 10%. 40-50% is where it will be more likely.
And in order for such tax to not hit the poor too much (marginal taxation), you have to include tax rebates, or preferably negative income tax welfare system.

This is my solution - effective progressive tax. Flat tax when it comes to actual taxation, but people with low incomes get supplemetal welfare inversely proportional to their income - NIT, so the net effect is like progressive tax. Best of both worlds:

Contribution Bonus Tax and Welfare System

edit on 13/2/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

edit on 13/2/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:15 PM

Trickle-down economics" had been tried before in the United States in the 1890s under the name "horse and sparrow theory."

—what an older and less elegant generation called the horse-and-sparrow theory:

'If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.'"

In 1896, Democratic Presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan made reference to trickle-down theory in his famous "Cross of Gold" speech:

There are two ideas of government. There are those who believe that if you just legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous, that their prosperity will leak through on those below.

The Democratic idea has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up and through every class that rests upon it.

It can be said many different ways, but giving the wealthiest amongst us more money...simply means they will have more money.

That is the crux of why bailing out the banks did not help. They took that money and held it....they didn't loan it out to start small business's or create jobs...and the gov did not require them to when they gave those taxpayer dollars.

The riskiest bet the banks took with those taxpayer funds was to invest in the safest thing around...futures in corn, grain and food supplies...people still got eat? Right? And know what happened? The cost of food went up in the midst of an economic depression! Those are your taxpayer dollars driving up the cost of the food you buy. How is that for adding insult to injury?

In the end...the middle and lower classes have to be reasonably healthy for the economic engine to run.

No corporation hires someone just because they are given more money....they hire someone when their products are flying off the shelf and they need to expand. Who buys those products? A healthy middle class. Absent Demand...the corporations sit on the money that congress lavishes them with.

You water a trees roots if you want it to do not climb up a ladder to the top, drill a hole and try to mainline the water into the top of that tree.

Horse and Sparrow...we have known the BS of the argument for over a hundred years...and yet greed and corruption wins the propaganda war over and over.

Focus all our resources on returning the middle class to good economic health...and that means eliminating every tax-break and loop-hole for the wealthiest amongst us.

They will make the money back when the engine starts running again, but without a healthy middle class and no spending beyond food and energy, we are dead in the water.

edit on 13-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Gorman91

Its going to be great when your generation is out. The logical common sense one of the computer age is far better at life.
edit on 15-12-2010 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

If the past 20 years have taught us anything it is that an economy based on "computers" is as apt to crash as often as your PC. We need an economy centered on more than "Angry Birds" to survive.

There is a segment of the population that benefits economically from being computer literate. Just as once in history their was a segment of the population that benefited from being "literate" in general.

Education is catching up and pretty soon every child that graduates HS in China or India will be fully computer literate and many Americans will discover they are not in fact brilliant, they just knew how to use a computer....and they will slowly learn this as thier jobs are outsourced to China and India for pennies on the dollar.

We need more than technology if we are to survive.

posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 03:47 PM
There is no such thing as trickle down economy. The wealthy buy their houses boats women cars, well you get it, after they are done with that, they invest, in stocks, in gold, in building their inheritance. The money doesnt hit the street. The saving rate of the upper 1% is just too big to have trickle down economics. You would have to buy a lot of porshes and iPads to burn through a billion dollars and most savvy billionairs are happy with a handfull of Ferraris and Limos and maybe a Yacht or 2. Not every rich person is a Nicholas Cage or a Jay Leno.

WHAT WE DO HAVE, is trickle UP economics. Just look at the saving rate of the bottom 50% and tell me we do not have a trickle up economy.
edit on 13-2-2012 by Cassius666 because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 13 2012 @ 08:23 PM
reply to post by Indigo5

If the past 20 years have taught us anything it is that an economy based on "computers" is as apt to crash as often as your PC. We need an economy centered on more than "Angry Birds" to survive.

Only crashes if you don't know what you're doing. I've never lost any data that was important, nor have I had many crashes. The whole "different generation" seems to have passed over you.

Education is catching up and pretty soon every child that graduates HS in China or India will be fully computer literate and many Americans will discover they are not in fact brilliant, they just knew how to use a computer....and they will slowly learn this as thier jobs are outsourced to China and India for pennies on the dollar.

The computer is unique in that you don't just learn it to perform well, you have to write its language as well.

IE, every good computer user is not only able to read, but also write. Something the "merely being literate" generation did not experience.

We need more than technology if we are to survive.

Don't see why.
edit on 13-2-2012 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

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