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What do you think aliens want to achieve with us?

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posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 08:38 PM

Originally posted by dusran

While I agree a system with hiearchies is self serving in a way it doesn't mean it has to be so black and white. There is a middle ground between serving self and serving others it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. If I give a kid a toy I'm doing it in a large part because the kid is going to get alot of enjoyment out of it and partly because it makes ME happy. Therefore I'm STS and STO at the same time.

But you're making the assumption that he'll get enjoyment out of it. What if 10 minutes from then he hurts himself with the toy? What if another kid takes it away from him? What if he loses it very quickly and becomes upset? And the most obvious one of all, what if he simply doesn't care for the toy, and in 2 minutes tosses it out?

You can't anticipate whether someone will get enjoyment from something or not, it is truly upto them, or so I think. So if you don't really know whether he'll get ANY enjoyment out of it, as anything can happen and his state of mind cannot be really predicted, in whose favor are you acting? What if this toy teaches him to be materialistic, and he grows up wanting more "toys", which soon become houses, cars, money, etc. Ya just can't predict these things, so why assume! Any choice has a potential for detriment and a potential for benefit. But what you DO know is that it will make you happy THINKING that this toy will bring pleasure to the kid, so you give it to him anyway. So you are still STS, even though you convince yourself that "It's good for the kid". You just don't know if it's "good" ahead of time, this reality is non linear, so a little thing can do "a lot".

The vast majority of people in this world are a combination of STS and STO. Its just that with all the different nations and groups of people in this world it can seem purely STS.

Well no one is 100% STS, and no one is 100% STO. Remember the symbol for Ying-Yang? It has 2 halfs, one black, one white, with a curved line in the middle which shows that in the middle they "overlap" - since the line is not straight. In addition, on the white side there is a BLACK DOT, and on the black side there is a WHITE DOT, which means there is a little bit of the opposite polarity in each side, nothing is TOTALLY one or the other.

But what I'm saying is, every single last human on this planet is clearly on the black side (STS) side, even though they still have that "white dot" that allows for some sto as well, though relatively much smaller than STS. Some humans embrace this side and consciously make the choice to remain here. Others are slowly making their way to the opposite side, though they can never achieve STO as humans, but they can be STO candidates. I hope I can express myself more clearly as I comment to your specific examples below

And really what is STS and STO? It is all relative.
Lets say we have a society of aliens that have no leadership per say, everyone has a voice in every decision that is made. Nobody can gain any more power than the next person in this society. Everyone works to better the entire species. You would say this is STO correct?

STO really means, service to self through others. And it's not that nobody can gain power, it's simply because no one WANTS power. STO society only exists when each and every individual is STO. Power means control over others, and control can NEVER be exercised over another unless he CONSENTS to it. STS allows to be controlled, because of certain "rewards" (temptations) or "threats" (blackmail, etc). They worry about "the self" and therefore sacrifice certain things to gain others. STO means COMPLETE lack of concern for self - TOTALLY.

So where does that black dot in the middle of the "yang" side come in, in relation to the civilization you described? Physicality. The very fact that your race is physical, means they have a craving for physicality, and that in and of itself is already STS, though pretty much everything else about them can be STO. Remember, humans have to EAT to survive - which means slaughter another living creature and consume its energy, to continue the physical existance of the SELF. So physical STO entities have to get really creative in terms of supporting their physical being, without having to consume another.

Well lets say that this society soons find out that their planet can no longer support life, so they ALL decide to travel into space to look for a new place to live.

That is already STS, they worry about survival of the self, they care about their own FLESH, because the flesh brings them "pleasure" (physical existance includes sensate) and emotions and so forth. If you are not PHYSICAL, you don't worry about survival! Yes, I know it seems a little "harsh" to say that if you worry about your own survival then you're service to self, but is it not obvious? It is our nature to worry about our survival, because we ARE self serving entities, we made the choice to be such, so here we are! There is NOTHING wrong with being service to self, the universe wouldn't exist without STS or STO, it needs both in perfect balance. Saying something is "wrong" or "bad" is a subjective judgement, so it really is a waste of time to judge and be assured that your judgement is "the correct" one. I just say this in case you think I'm "accusing" you or anyone of being STS. The word "accuse" carries a negative connotation in our language, which in a word can be described as something "bad". But that would be a judgement

Soon they come to our planet; they contact the governments and tell them what has happened to their race and ask if they can settle on our planet. Our governments of course tell them no since we are already having a population crisis. So the aliens are left with no other nearby livable planet and they don't have the time nor resources to terraform a planet. Either they do something drastic or their race dies out.

Still, just worrying about their own survival, body-centric, service to self race. There are different levels of awareness in the universe, and some forms of existance don't have to be purely physical, they can be for example half physical half pure consciousness. In this state, you can be STO because your survival doesn't depend on "problems" with your planet necessarily. However, you are speaking of a COMPLETELY physical race, like humans, who really are very physically vulnerable and depend on many factors to be "just right" in order to survive.

So we have a STO race with little options:

Sorry they're now an STS race, but let's check out those options.

1) take over our planet and inhabit it thereby saving their race or 2) Die. These aliens are thinking about what is best for their race, they want to see their children live to grow up happy just as they did. Still STO right?

DESIRE is STS, period. Any time you "want" something, it is STS. Any time you "wish" it is STS. Ever wish upon a star?

You see, this takes some thinking to understand, but it makes all the sense in the world after you give it some critical thought. I'll gladly go over the details with you of the reasoning behind such statements as I just made about STS. I am posting on this board because I am service to SELF, so I get pleasure from entertaining the idea that I can help someone learn by sharing with you this knowledge. You never really asked me to share, neither did EarthSister, but because it will make ME happy, I decided to do it anyway. So yes, I'm doing this for myself, no matter how much I convince myself that "It is really for your own good, I do it for you!". The very fact that I am giving you this info without being ASKED for it, is self serving!

So your civilization wants its children (which they apparently obtained by sex, and what is more self serving than that?) to be happy and live long happy lives. Happiness doesn't reside in a "long life", you don't have to SURVIVE to be happy - happiness is a state of mind, it is subjective and can be obtained by WILL alone at any moment. Your civilization, however, is attached to its children - it will pain the parents to see its children die - and to avoid THEIR OWN PAIN, the parents try to find a new planet. Or is it that their children will be in pain that bothers them so much? The question is, why does it bother THE PARENTS!? You see, your race, if they are STO, would realise that death is just a rebirth, death is part of life, and any "pain" teaches us very valuable lessons and is part of being ALIVE in the flesh. To try to avoid pain at all costs and only seek pleasure (and in their view, survival brings ultimate pleasure and happiness), is once again, STS. They try to link happiness with survival, with the flesh, with something outside themselves. This is not just STS, it is also ignorant, because happiness is within. I have seen more happy homeless people in my life than rich, married people. It is all about the WILL to be happy, it is WITHIN.

But the only way for their children and race to survive is to take this planet by force, which will result in the deaths of many humans and aliens alike. Now you would probably say they are STS but in their eyes they are still a STO society. They don't want to see us hurt but then again thinking of the others of their OWN race they do not want to see them all die off.

They don't want to see them die, that's STS isn't it? Once again, death is just normal part of life, "desire" to LIVE because life is pleasurable is STS. Now, if they take this planet by force, obviously they are violating OUR free will on this planet, and being STS no doubt. But why do they do this? Because they want to LIVE, they want their children to LIVE, they want their race to survive! Why? The universe doesn't really care one way or the other, so why do THEY want their race to survive? Because it saddens them to see their race die, it makes them unhappy! They are attached to their kids, their families, their way of life, their EXISTANCE in PHYSICALITY. To be separated from that attachment hurts the SELF! And we're back to STS.

Once again, sorry if I'm being a bit too abrupt and confusing, I'm just trying to make the point as brief and clear as possible, with no extra "emotional baggage" attached.

My point is that there is no such thing as purely STO or STS. There is only a middle ground, or leaning more to one side or the other. Even with a STO society you are not guarunteed a peacefull existence.

When you are purely spiritual, which just means pure consciousness with no physicality, you can be pure STO as well. As long as there is at least SOME physicality, you cannot be 100% either one. Do you know what 100% STS is? A black hole. A black hole is a physical representation of the STS polarity, it is a reflection of the STS persuasion represented as physical phenomena. This way, it is PURE 100% sts though. So what happens to someone who keeps going to STS polarity? Well STS focuses on the self, so if you focus completely on the self, you point all your energy inwards, and steal energy from others and suck it in too. Eventually, the "gravity" of your own energy collapses you, and you seize to exist in a sense. Is this bad? NO! All there is is lessons! It is part of the experience of "God", of ALL THERE IS! "God" (or all there is) has no LIMITS, so every possible experience that can ever possibly happen already IS. Therefore, it is just a natural part of the universe, something that happens to those who make certain choices. No one JUDGES you or punishes you into non-existance, it is a NATURAL result of your choices!

Same as, if you jump off a roof, you fall to the ground. Not because God hates everyone who jumps off roofs and punishes them by making them into bloody pancakes. But because it's a natural result of "gravity" being present.

And if you are as hard-up on STO society as you seem to be you should just drop this whole debate now. Trust is based on the experiences we have with others and Earthsister seems to have had quite a few with the aliens. Take up a STO attitude and trust that she is right in her trust, but caution her that she could be wrong, and lets this argument drop. Stop feeding your own ego, by proclaiming your stance in these STS posts.

The only "trust" I have is in my potential to know all there is to know, that reality is not limited, and in potential, neither am I. What IS trust anyway? How many times have people known someone ALL THEIR LIFE and suddenly he "betrays" their trust? I'm talking best friends, family, etc. Why? Well let's look at trust for a second here...

When you TRUST someone you make the ASSUMPTION that they will be "faithful" and will carry on being whatever they seem to be. That means you ASSUME they won't make the CHOICE to betray you, because you have observed them LONG ENOUGH to feel safe to make such an assumption. However, this doesn't mean they will NOT betray your "trust", will NOT do something to hurt you, etc. So you don't really 100% KNOW, but you give it a HIGH PROBABILITY that they will NOT.

So instead of questioning everything they do or say, you develop TRUST, which is a shortcut - it allows you to use the assumption that they will have the best intentions for you, and skip the "research" on your part about all that they do and say, and just BELIEVE them. Sure it is possible they will NEVER betray your trust, and it is also possible that they will. Either way, because you already make the assumption that they won't, you are always SHOCKED when it does happen, IF it happens.

Those who say "I don't trust anybody" usually make the OPPOSITE assumption of someone who trusts. He sometimes makes the assumption that the person WILL deceive them and "hurt" them in some way. Trust, is the assumption that they will NOT! But you cannot make either assumption, because you simply do not KNOW! Why do we need to trust anyone? Because if we don't constantly make assumptions in our lives, we will spend a CRAZY amount of time double checking the validity of every statement, of EVERYTHING.

Example: Your mom says "It is cloudy outside today, I hope it doesn't rain!". Now, because most people trust their moms to make such a simple statement without any deception, you simply assume that she said the truth. Chances are, she did. However, it is never GUARANTEED 100%. But, if every time your mom or someone else you trust made such a statement, and you went outside to double check to MAKE SURE, you would spend a LOT of time checking many many things, too much time even.

So what is my personal solution to it? Well you didn't ask, but I'm STS so I'm gonna share it anyway. I do not ASSUME. Simple? Maybe.

My mom says: It's cloudy outside.

I would give this statement a high probability of being true, simply because of my experience that my mom doesn't have a reason to lie about this, and usually she wouldn't. However, I still don't really know, for all I know, she just woke up and had a dream it was cloudy! So what do I do? If it matters to me, I go check for myself. If it doesn't, I say "thanks" and keep doing whatever I kept doing. But the KEY thing in this whole thing is, I will not ASSUME it is cloudy just because someone I "trust" says so. Not until I can validate it for myself. I can give it a high probability of being true, but I can never give it 100% truth without actually knowing if it's true or not, because if I do this and go outside and it is SUNNY, I made a false assumption and led myself astray.

So basically, trust is a shortcut for people to make assumptions, because when you make assumptions you don't have to question and double check everything, it makes life EASIER and therefore more pleasurable. But do any of us 100% KNOW that those that we trust will absolutely NEVER make a choice to deceive or hurt us? No, that would be wishful thinking, and because EACH person has free will, unless you have absolute control over the one you trust, there is ALWAYS a chance that such a choice may be made. So why ASSUME that it won't? Why not just settle for "I don't know, but because I have experience with this person, I give it a high probability of being true". You cannot really do better than that without lying to yourself.

So in reality, EarthSister may have plenty of experience with these aliens, and has developed trust - where she now assumes that what they say is true, simply based on their prior consistency. But if one questions and verifies things, especially things that are important to that person (like information with personal alien contacts perhaps), one can make SURE that the information is true. The best disinformation uses tactics of giving many TRUTHS at first, and then mixing in a lie, that will usually go unnoticed because of all the other truths around them. This is sometimes called a "lie sandwich". How does one spot that little lie? Knowledge protects, ignorance indangers. But if one assumes, one is not really seeking knowledge, one is looking for "shortcuts". And there are no such thing, there are no shortcuts in lessons.

Anyways, I don't want this to turn into a debate (it may already have). I don't want to argue, I've made my point, what I WANTED to say (cuz im STS!). But I won't push it. There comes a limit where your free will comes into play, and I will respect this. I'll say no more unless you directly ask me a specific question. Sorry I have a tendency to write short books in my posts :\


posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 09:45 PM

Originally posted by lilblam
...I don't want to argue, I've made my point...

You know I was going to reply to your post and quote each section and elaborate similar to the way you do (even though I could never be as proficient at it as you are
). But then I realized I don't even know what to argue about.

Nothing will ever be STO in this universe according to your definition. Even God himself, the being who created us, must have had some selfish intent even if remotely small. So it is logical to think that none of his creations, no matter how spiritually evolved will ever be totally STO.

So it can be assumed that any civilization someone finds in the universe will be STS and have some type of structure (ie. hiearchy of command). The universe itself is in a hiearchial system, ie. planets, solar system, galaxy, etc. Heaven itself is divided up ie. hell, heaven, angels, God (if you believe in that). So it is safe to assume that you will never find a entity anywhere that is purely STO. Nor will you find any civilization in the material world or in heaven where more power or praise isn't given to certain individuals. As far my opinion goes true STO cannot exist.

So saying that these aliens are STS is a moot point. EVERYTHING is STS to some degree, you just have to determine to what degree.

*looks at post* Well maybe I do know what to argue about.

Anyhow, thats just my opinion. You can reply if you like, however I don't see either of us changing each others mind anytime soon.

posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 09:55 PM

A couple of times in your comments, it sounds like you assume alien people are not physical. I assure you they are as alive and physical as we are. Their bodies are just made of different elements of matter and mixtures of matter race to race. Our biologics and dna are vastly different, but we are still the same kind of being as people.

They have natural life-spans, most hundreds of years, at the end of which, they go into "the spirit world" for a time, same as we do.

We are not our bodies, we are our souls.

I would like to ask you where all of these thoughts and opinions you have are coming from. You seem very sure of everything you say. What is your experience? How old are you? What is your education? What do you do for your bread and butter? What kind of things do you study or know about?

Mine and my husband Jack's own experiences with alien life are advanced compared to other humans, as we are told by many researchers and by the aliens. There are other humans who have experiences similar to ours. We have met a few in daily life and in meetings with the aliens, but we have not found anybody else with the same degree of communication or understanding.

I don't claim or imply to know everything. As matter of fact, most of what my husband and I see and experience we could never understand or explain. For every single thing we figure out, we realize there are ten more things we don't know. Even though Jack has more intensive physical, or seemingly physical, experiences with the aliens than I do, I have a wider understanding and way of looking at things. I also enjoy my ability to discuss these things with others more easily than he does. It is not easy to feel good about yourself doing this kind of thing. Somebody is always trying to tear you up for one reason or another.

I am not a scientist or a doctor or a judge. I do not have a college degree in anything. But I am intelligent, dedicated, responsible and honest. And I know something that most people don't-- I know the aliens. I have a lot to share with others to help them understand for themselves the kinds of things I understand.

When I don't know something, I say I don't know. If I can find out, I do that too. If I have an educated opinion, I say that is what it is. If the aliens tell me something point blank, that is where I say it came from. I have also developed a deep natural sense of spiritual meaning due to all of my experience with alien life, and with other kinds of life such as spirits and angels.

What I know about is a host of broad basic facts and natures of our visiting races and how contact happens for humans. I am not a psychologist, obviously, but I have a psychological view of the dynamics of contact for humans. This is because I am a human and because I have contact. I do not study other people's cases although I help many other people with them. I do not know very much in depth about how alien technologies work, but Jack and I have seen a lot of absolutely incredible things working and happening. I do not know intricacies of alien contact with the leading govts. The things I know are things chosen to help me do what I do best, which is to help any and all others get to know the alien races so that they can progress with their individual contacts and with our world's contact.

There are so many things to be done, and so many difficulties to overcome on the way to uniting our world with our neighboring worlds. This world has not even united its countries yet. But all of the other races have done it and so will we.

[edit on 12-7-2004 by EarthSister]

posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 10:04 PM

Originally posted by EarthSister
I would like to ask you where all of these thoughts and opinions you have are coming from. You seem very sure of everything you say. What is your experience? How old are you? What is your education? What do you do for your bread and butter? What kind of things do you study or know about?


Lilblam talks about this site a lot:

posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 10:44 PM
Hi EarthSister, you said:

I would like to ask you where all of these thoughts and opinions you have are coming from. You seem very sure of everything you say. What is your experience? How old are you? What is your education? What do you do for your bread and butter? What kind of things do you study or know about?

The Bandit was correct, I do mention that site a lot. It has helped me open my eyes, and helped me do my own research, my own "work" at questioning reality and myself. I am only sure of what I have understood to be true from my experience, but I am always learning and open to changing my understanding, if I realise that it is false on some level. Everyone sees things in their own unique way, and given a different awareness and perception, the same thing can be seen as absolutely something else by another entity.

What is my experience with what exactly, im not sure what you're asking for by that question? I'm 20 yrs old. I completed High School and am now attending college. What do I do for bread and butter? I am a Jazz Pianist in local restaurants. I know about whatever interests me, whatever I "arrive" at from my other knowledge. I don't necessarily study anything in particular, (although my college major is 'computer science' and 'networking). I study "reality" you might say. I try not to limit myself by concentrating on any one specific thing, as all things are ultimately connected, so to get a "bigger picture" or a "higher perspective" on certain things, one would utilize different knowledge from different areas of reality, as you probably know, so I try to do just that.

You also said,

Somebody is always trying to tear you up for one reason or another.

Now I don't know if you take my comments as some sort of attack on you, but I assure you I respect your opinion and you as well, I simply voiced my disagreement with certain things you said (rather selfishly as well, because I wasn't exactly asked). And I admit I am rather curious about the nature of your contacts, though I haven't read the rest of this thread and you may have already explained this. So I'll go read the thread, and if I still have any questions, I will get back to you if u don't mind.


posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 07:56 AM
Ascertaining Service To Self (STS) or Service To Others (STO) is important because it determines the character of those you are dealing with, be they individuals, groups, societies, whatever. Which is very similar to discerning their application of The Golden Rule. "Judge them by their fruits."

As one spiritually progresses, regardless of whether one is in the discarnate realms or in the flesh, one becomes more oriented to Service To Others. Since there can never be perfection, as that implies a stagnate state of being which is in contrast to the generally accepted principle that the only constant is change, then spirituality and the selflessness it entails, will always be a matter of degree.

This even goes for The Original Creator who initiated The Big Bang which resulted in a very large Universe, but not an infinite one. One can never become infinitely selfless but rather learn to embrace an ever higher degree of spiritual excellence.

I would not underestimate the degree of The Original Creator's spiritual excellence.

Regardless of organizational structure, the key way to determine an STS society is by how they treat humanoid worlds of lesser technological development. If they openly and/or covertly subjugate them, then they are essentially STS. If they visit them and benignly give them helpful information without using some of them as laboratory animals, slaves, etc., then they are STO.

Until there is evidence to the contrary, the Zetan-aliens (consisting of Reptilians, Insectians, Greys, Nordics and Hybrids) are obviously representative of an STS society.

posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 01:56 PM
My earlier post concerned only one race the " Greys" They seem to be the predominate presence in the US. at this time maybe other races are benevolent I am told that many have a non-involvement prime-directive some like the "Nordic" actually resemble tall blonds with blue eyes. I found this list which describes other alien races.
as far as the Greys some say they are controled by their masters the Reptillians . In any event I am sure that more info will gradually come to light, nothing stays hidden from people who love mysteries.

posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 09:13 PM
Most of the reports from abductees describe the Grey aliens orchestrating the abduction. Some reports also state that the Nordics serve as security in protecting the Greys (who are generally physically weaker than us) against their Terran prisoners.

As far as the Reptilians being the masters of the Greys, that is an idea which seems to be gaining momentum in the UFO community. The Anunnaki that Zecharia Sitchin talks about from his archeological findings were Reptilian, not Grey. Purportedly, the Grey race was genetically jumpstarted after, not before, Homo sapien life emerged.

The so-called "Prime Directive of Non-Interference" stems in part if not in whole from the fictitious Star Trek television series. Many have assumed that the reason why the aliens don't make their presence known is because of some ethical consideration in not interfering with our society. That is complete nonsense! If they truly were interested in non-interference, they would not be using many of us as laboratory animals and slaves, stemming back hundreds of thousands of years -- again corroborated by Zecharia Sitchin.

I wish that there really was a benevolent alien race that we could have contact with. We could sure use one.

There is another problem. If the Zetan-Greys are in collusion with covert facets of the government, then it logically fits that they would prevent other space-aliens from making friendly contact with us. Since we are generally considered farm animals and slaves, it fits that the self-serving Zetans would strive to prevent any interference from competing forces.

So even if there were benevolent space-aliens in our galaxy, and they were aware of us, then they would have to covertly go around the multiple Zetan bases here, spacecraft, probes, and Terran radar nets around the planet.

Thus, making it very difficult for a benevolent alien race to make contact with amiable Terrans, as it would involve a high level of risk in having to avoid Zetan forces as well as those from our own government.

Like I stated previously, I think our best bet is for a group of private citizens to eventually develop some kind of interstellar flight capability and start their own long-range projects, colonies, etc.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by Paul_Richard]

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 01:58 AM

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
This even goes for The Original Creator who initiated The Big Bang which resulted in a very large Universe, but not an infinite one. One can never become infinitely selfless but rather learn to embrace an ever higher degree of spiritual excellence.

Spiritual excellence is not necessarily defined by how STO one is in my opinion. The Creator would have to by necessity be both, STS and STO in perfect balance, in order to be all there is, which is infinite and limitless in scope. But the higher your awareness becomes, the greater your consciousness, the more your "SELF" becomes closer to that of the creator, which is all there is. So your "Service to OTHERS" slowly phases into "service to self through others", because you become ONE with all "others", and the self is in perfect unity (so not differenciated) with the rest of existance. This doesn't mean we're not ONE with all that is now as a human, it just means we're not AWARE of it yet, and awareness is the key here.

However, when speaking of "Big Bang" or any beginning, it implies a linear set of events, and a "time" - since BEGINNING is a linear concept, and FINITE.. just like an END would be. Reality is not FINITE in essence, though the concept of "limitation" IS part of the unlimited/infinite reality, it is simply a concept that exists as part of ALL that is, though it doesn't comprise the totality of creation. If one was to think of existance as linear, it creates a paradox, a contradiction, and simply means any perception of linearity is based on your awareness. The more aware an entity is, the less linear existance becomes for such an entity, and the more "parallel" or simultaneous your experiences of "all that is" become. But where does this contradiction/paradox lies? It lies in the very "origins" of creation, which is not a BEGINNING but is more of a "source" or a "core" like that of an onion, from which everything else STEMS. This CORE can be referred to as "Intelligent Infinity" or "God". Now, the CHOICE had to be made by this "God" to experience ITSELF, which comprises existance, as opposed to the other alternative of "non-existance". In order to CHOOSE this, it needs FREE WILL. The next layer of this onion is what can be called the "Intelligent Energy" which utilizes "LOVE" which is otherwise called as the "CREATIVE PRINCIPLE" which is derived from FREE WILL of the Creator, to experience ALL that there is to experience, all POSSIBLITIES in Creation.

However, here is where the paradox comes in if one is to make the assumption that reality is linear and has a beginning. FREE WILL is a product of EXISTANCE/CREATION, so FREE WILL could not exist without there being EXISTANCE (as opposed to non-existance) to begin with. However, EXISTANCE could not exist without there being FREE WILL, as free will is the CHOICE on the part of the Creator or the "Intelligent Infinity" to experience ALL THERE IS (to KNOW ITSELF), and this CHOICE to KNOW ITSELF is what forms existance. So as it appears, they must co-exist for infinity, at the same time, and CANNOT be separated into any "linear" concept of "sequence of events", which would include a beginning. And yes, "Love" aka the "creative principle" aka the "Choice by the Creator/Intelligent Infinity to QUESTION it's own awareness which leads it to KNOW ITSELF, and basically creates the SELF to begin with, which manifests as ALL THERE IS". So the question of "Where did everything come from" makes no sense without the understanding of eternal existance in the infinite NOW (just BEING), with only awareness of the creator of itself being the one TRUE thing, and everything else being the potential possibilities of all that is manifesting themselves, which comprises the Creator to begin with. So we all exist because the "Creator" is seeking to know itself, to focus its awareness and understand every possible thing that there is to understand.

A linear human mind has much trouble grasping many of these things, but with some effort it can be clearly understood, if even for a few brief moments before the "confusion" sets in again. You can see how difficult it is to express such things in such a drastically LIMITED form of communication like the English language, so forgive me for being reduntant a few times in my attempt to make these concepts come out as clearly as possible. Ultimately, it is upto the receiver (reader) to make the mental effort to try to understand this if he so desires, because it truly is pointless trying to shove higher concepts into lower awareness and have them retain their true meaning. It took me a LONG "time" to understand many of these things, and a HUGE amount of effort and "searching" to understand other things. So no, I'm not "smarter" than anyone else. I am simply dedicated to my goal, and dedication coupled with patience often yields results. It is advisable that the awareness of the individual INCREASES or GROWS to understand the concepts, instead of trying to SHRINK the concepts to fit the current awareness! It is not an impossible task, but it will take effort and WILL. My suggestion is, "know thyself". Do what the creator did, or rather, you're doing the reflection of the Creator, in your microcosmic existance. All reality mirrors itself in microcosm and macrocosm, as above so below. You possess all of creation within as it is, so all your answers are in your mind. THINK!

Our perception/experiences are a direct result of our AWARENESS. And our awareness is the result of our KNOWLEDGE of ourselves, of our own connection and unity with the creator. The greater this knowledge of ALL THERE IS, the greater the awareness, and our perception and experiences change accordingly. Hope this helps.

Regardless of organizational structure, the key way to determine an STS society is by how they treat humanoid worlds of lesser technological development. If they openly and/or covertly subjugate them, then they are essentially STS. If they visit them and benignly give them helpful information without using some of them as laboratory animals, slaves, etc., then they are STO.

Here the key thing to ask for any initiative is "Why". Why would they visit us and give us technologies and knowledge? What is their MOTIVATION? All of creation is capable of reaching any level of knowledge by seeking it and putting in the effort to evolve itself and grow its own awareness. So when would STO entities be involved in helping each other? ONLY when they are ASKED! Any "uninvited guests" are serving themselves and their interests, even if they DO give us knowledge and technology.

Ask, and you shall receive. Receive without asking, and you shall be deceived. All there is is lessons, and NO ONE in all of creation relies on SOMEONE ELSE to learn their lessons and grow and evolve themselves, though we receive PLENTY of help and guidance when we ask and are ready in terms of our progress/lessons. If this "someone else" decides that this other being (humans for example) cannot do it on their own free will and discovery, then this "someone else" is lying to themselves, and therefore any action on the part of this "someone else" to BOOST the growth of any other being would be service to SELF!

Until there is evidence to the contrary, the Zetan-aliens (consisting of Reptilians, Insectians, Greys, Nordics and Hybrids) are obviously representative of an STS society.

This doesn't mean we cannot contact and communicate with other entities. But the way this contact is initiated and for what REASONS and with what INTENT is very important, in terms of free will of all involved. There is no such thing as "good intentions", as good is subjective. I'm speaking of OBJECTIVE intent when I say intent.

Learning is fun, why should someone else take the fun and free will of learning/discovery from another entity? Learning often means falling down just to get up again, this time stronger and with more knowledge. If all we ever had were positive "heaven-like" experiences, we'd learn nothing and would FOREVER be stuck in the same level of awareness, until we are able to learn about our reality and ourselves through a BALANCE of experiences. The universe is about balance

Hope this helps, any thoughts/comments are welcome.


[edit on 14-7-2004 by lilblam]

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Gazrok
I wish I could believe all of that...

2. I am FIRMLY convinced of alien visitation, and I've seen proof enough for me. (a sighting of more than a few ships near a military installation, that I've documented elsewhere in this forum in the past).
I have to disagree here... There is abundant evidence of EBE trickery, deceipt, breaking agreements, etc.

I also agree that we are being observed, but there is no actual evidence of EBE trickery, deceipt or broken agreements. It is alleged and hearsay. I am not saying that the supposed witnesses are lying, but there is an abundance hearsay of trickery, deceipt and broken agreements by EBEs. Not evidence. I have yet to see actual, verified, documentation of such accounts.

[edit on 14-7-2004 by Facefirst]

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 05:19 AM
Hi Mike,

In my experience, spiritual growth boils down to the ability to love genuinely and deeply (selfless compassion) -- which correspondingly in the discarnate dimensions is the ability to Radiate Spiritual White Light.

So yes, spiritually excellence and selflessness go hand-in-hand. One only evolves spiritually from increasing one’s Radiance/selflessness, i.e., by increasing one’s ability to love genuinely and deeply. The more advanced the soul, the more energy available to it when free of matter and in the Spirit. The Original Creator was/is on a very high level of Radiance and that enabled Him to manifest The Big Bang.

The Yin/Yang paradigm illustrates opposing forces and masculine/feminine energies, but you only go from point A to point B in growth by accentuating the positive: by serving others, living by The Golden Rule, etc.

Time is the means with which reality is experienced. We all live in linear time. It is inescapable. The same applied to The Original Creator billions of years ago in His manifestation of The Big Bang.


They could not be of the dialectically materialistic mindset. Their motivation would have to be a spiritual one. In order for that to happen, they would have to be principled and knowledgeable about Universal Law pertaining to the higher discarnate dimensions.

Compassion is a key to understanding this. The greater a soul's evolution, the greater its compassion. Compassion does not need an invitation. Compassion strives to heal, defend and enlighten innocents on ANY planet.

Which is a very strong argument in itself why the so-called “ascended masters" in New Age and elsewhere are illusory, as they have no proven compassion in interfering on the side of innocents.

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 12:23 PM
Though knowledge and one's "polarity" don't necessarily go hand in hand. One entity could have extremely high understanding and knowledge of the universe and itself, yet it can be self serving and utilizing this knowledge for its own ends.

Oh and when you speak of time, and say it is inescapable, I disagree but won't argue this point, I've learned enough not to argue, but only to discuss. I'll just say that all things are possible, there are no restrictions or limits, only self-imposed ones. So whatever that means to you, that's fine.

You also say that you only go from point A to point B by accentuating the positive. But you would be ignoring an entire HALF of all that is, which is the negative, and "Negative" can otherwise be described as Service to SELF and the entropic principle (as opposed to the Creative Principle). The universe has both of course. But once again, one can have extreme amounts of understanding and knowledge, and be self serving at the same time. The restriction is that he will be at least partially PHYSICAL, so he has a SELF to aggrandize and serve. A purely spiritual entity cannot be self serving, because its self is merged in unity with others - it has no physical "presence" to serve. So I agree, Service To SELF has a limitation, it needs to eventually be converted to service to others or the entity cannot evolve any further until such a choice is made - it cannot become pure consciousness (or purely spiritual, same thing) when it is STS. But this doesn't mean a STS being cannot go pretty far in terms of knowledge with that polarity! Service to Others is BALANCE in and of itself, you balance your energy by pointing it outwards, usually to STS entities who ask for it because they want more energy to point inwards (as they are STS). STO serves all who ask, including STS. STS only serves self. STS needs STO to acquire this energy for itself, because other STS entities do not share their energy with STS (they'd have to be forced in some way, with violation of their free will). And it's this circulation and balance that makes STO and STS interdependent. Networking is an STO principle. When an individual is imbalanced by being STS, and another is balanced by being STO, they also balance each other out in the universal sense. The point is, STO cannot exist without STS and vice versa - one needs the other in order to exist - and that would be the universal balance or "Ying Yang", as far as I understand the concept. But I'm still working on that understanding, and any comments/thoughts are welcome.

When you say "spiritual growth" could you define spiritual? Because sometimes it has this connotation of being "divine" and therefore "good" or "holy" in some way - which can send the wrong impression. I just think of it as pure consciousness, which is basically your knowledge/awareness of all things. But you can grow your knowledge and awareness while STILL being self serving, to a certain degree, and there is nothing wrong with this at all, it's just a choice as with all things.

EDIT:By the way when I say "negative" I don't mean all those things that happen to you in your life which u don't like, painful, undesirable things. I mean just STS, which is out of balance. Because I see ALL events in life as neutral but having the potential to be positive or negative, depending on your choice of what to do about them. If one learns, and therefore grows from them, it is positive. If one seeks to ignore them or try to pretend they aren't there, or that they are something other than what they are, one stagnates and refuses to accept reality and the world they live in, and refuses to KNOW and therefore grow and learn. That would be negative. One cannot serve others if you don't have the knowledge first! Otherwise u'd be giving them disinfo or misinformation, out of your own ignorance. And because ALL humans are naturally service to self, it would be pointless to pretend otherwise out of "wishful thinking" on the part of a human, and would be the denial of what IS, which means stagnation and obsession with a certain assumption, which means lack of learning and growth, which is selfish and negative. But it's not WRONG or BAD in any way, as that would be subjective and a judgement.


[edit on 14-7-2004 by lilblam]

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 02:59 PM
Hi Mike,


Okay, I’ll go along with that.


What I was referring to is spiritual awareness/knowledge. Those with spiritual understanding would not be self serving.


Yes, if one defines Point A to Point B as being on a spiritual path.


It is all a matter of having the right spiritual focus of service to others, striving to live by The Golden Rule, etc. Entropy is universal. We must all strive to avoid it and embrace The Light, at least in focus while we are in the flesh.


That is true. However, no degree of understanding and awareness will put one on a spiritual path without having an STO focus. Without application, you can have all the knowledge in the Universe and never truly spiritually progress to a high level.


Taking care of the physical body is important. To say that someone is a “purely spiritual entity” is almost like saying someone is “perfect.” I would avoid that phrasing because spiritual excellence is all a matter of degree.

Now let’s address the issue of unity. When most people transition, they join a group consciousness in the Spirit. It gives them a sense of belonging, feelings of telepathic cohesion, and the advantage of collective power. However, the more disciplined souls, the Saints, do not seek unity with others in a group per se, but seek to become “a Light onto Oneself.” This is of course the most difficult path to take but ultimately the most rewarding one. The Original Creator was never part of a group consciousness and He became the quintessential example of a Light onto Oneself. So I don’t agree with the assumption that selflessness results in becoming part of a Group Entity. I was not part of one before entering this life and I am not going to be a part of one after I leave it.


I would not say, “pure consciousness,” but I agree with the gist of what you are stating.


From my work with people that have suffered from discarnate demonic attack, as well as my own numerous direct experiences with same, I have learned that the spiritually indifferent do not balance out the spiritually conscientious or vice versa.

What really happens is that the spiritually indifferent cannot unite with The Light and eventually “fall” into embracing total darkness. They usually start out by rejecting the lessons learned from their life review and refuse to take responsibility for balancing out misdeeds while in the flesh.

As many near death experiencers will tell you: no one gets away with anything. It just seems that many often do while they are in a body.

The soul is a form of energy. But that energy is not eternal unless it unites with The Light to a certain extent. When the soul loses its ability to unite with The Light in the Spirit, it falls into nonexistence by embracing total darkness. Evil destroys itself in the Spirit constantly. That is what is meant by the traditional phrasing of “losing one’s soul.”

If there wasn’t a Universal Code of Morality in the Spirit, there could never be Cosmic Justice for all involved. That is why striving to live by The Golden Rule is so important.


A basic definition of the word, “spiritual,” would be living by The Golden Rule and serving others, while pursuing the cultivation of higher awareness and guidance through prayer and meditation. An advanced definition of the word, “spiritual,” would be all of the above plus a cultivated discipline of selflessness through daily Heart Chakra Radiance.


I have never come across anyone on either side that embraces total knowledge or pure consciousness, as these are absolute terms, like perfection, that don’t depict reality accurately. All higher awareness and spiritual development is a matter of degree. No one can know all things but it is often amazing as to the awareness of some in the Spirit. Even those in the highest discarnate dimensions are learning and growing. Granted, the higher the plane, the purer the consciousness but there is not a rarefied plane of existence that entails perfect consciousness or absolute pure consciousness, as that would imply stagnation; this being in contrast to the Taoist principle as well as the physics principle that "The only constant is change."


Everyone can serve in small ways with only a little knowledge.


I would say that most humanoids in general are STS with a relatively small percentage of them being STO.

[edit on 14-7-2004 by Paul_Richard]

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:15 PM
what they want from us?? They are trying to understand how come we dont evoluate, how come our brains are stuck at 4 %. But we are prolly not their first concern cuz if we were, well something would have happened a while ago...

posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 03:34 PM
I think that they are trying to achieve that incredibly fine balance between "less filling" and "tastes great".
Then again what do I know?

[edit on 7-14-2004 by groingrinder]

posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 01:06 AM
Hi Paul,

You keep referring to "The Light", so I'll ask here what is your understanding of this term? To me it simply means knowledge, and not some "divine" aspect of the Creator. Everything is an aspect of the Creator, and the only difference as far as I understand is NOT what is "good" or what is "evil" (those being subjective), but the level of awareness of entities, and their polarity in terms of STO or STS. I want to stay as objective here as possible. Let's deal with what we KNOW first, and see if there is any difference in "opinion" in this area. If there is, obviously either both or one of us do not really KNOW, but are making an assumption of some sort. When I speak of knowledge, I only speak of true knowledge, because false knowledge is not really knowledge, it's just "misinformation" or "disinformation".

You said:

When most people transition, they join a group consciousness in the Spirit. It gives them a sense of belonging, feelings of telepathic cohesion, and the advantage of collective power. However, the more disciplined souls, the Saints, do not seek unity with others in a group per se, but seek to become “a Light onto Oneself.” This is of course the most difficult path to take but ultimately the most rewarding one. The Original Creator was never part of a group consciousness and He became the quintessential example of a Light onto Oneself. So I don’t agree with the assumption that selflessness results in becoming part of a Group Entity. I was not part of one before entering this life and I am not going to be a part of one after I leave it.

But if we're all ONE (in terms of our eternal interconnectedness with the creator/all there is, containing the entire creation within each infinitesimal part of our being), then when your awareness rises, you become more aware of your own natural unity and connection with ALL things. A nice analogy would be the internet. All computers are "individual units" but connected to each other, and if the computer has infinite bandwidth and infinite storage capacity (as our minds do), it literally becomes ONE with all other computers, inseparable, and absolutely contains ALL of the information that every other computer contains. The human illusion of "separation" from the Creator and each other is just that, an illusion. So the higher your awareness (in other words, the higher you go spiritually), the more consciously aware you become of your own unification with all that is, as far as I understand it.

But you say the "disciplined" souls (disciplined in what way? The Golden Rule? If so, could you elaborate a little on what that is?) become "A light onto themselves". But networking, being an STO principle, allows you to connect with others and learn from them, because they act as a mirror of yourself and able to help you learn about yourself more than you ever could in isolation - as your lessons never end, since there's no limit to reality. The thing is, you already are all that is, and all "others" are as well. So when you learn about yourself, you learn about your own reality. Others just give you different perspectives and reflect back to you things you do not see in isolation, with only your own experiences as a reference point. Now, we ARE a light onto ourselves because we are still a single consciousness unit, we're still an individual, but we also share in the experiences of all others around us when our awareness rises and we're able to perceive our connectedness with them, which accelerates our growth as it gives us the opportunity to learn faster. But the question is, does our awareness of our unity with all that is necessitate us to be part of some "group"? Would there be a limit to the size of any such group, and if so, what would determine this limit? Perhaps there is a level of progress that you simply cannot reach ALONE, without connecting with others? So you can "go it alone" until a certain point, after which "yourself" becomes less and less, as it incorporates more and more consciousness units in itself, before it incorporates ALL of them, as you ultimately consciously become one with all that is, one with the Creator. But that part is speculation once again, this requires some more thinking and maybe a boost in my awareness too before I can really know any of this.

Oh and you also said you were not part of a group soul when you came into this incarnation, and you won't be one upon exiting. But you have a veil over your eyes at this time, as you know (as all humans do), so how do you know you're not part of a group already? Obtaining this knowledge would take some effort at knowing yourself, and though is not impossible, is difficult to achieve as a human. Maybe all or some of humanity is part of a group soul, just unaware of it at this moment? I mean, it IS a possibility, unless you personally know in some way that you are not.

Though this conversation is becoming a little speculative due to its level of detail, as we attempt to discuss certain things that we're not yet fully aware of. Speculation can be fun, but let's concentrate on the basic "core" concepts, which I think would also be much more fun for everyone else reading this. Oh and if you don't mind, since this thread is about aliens and their "plans" in regards to us, I'd like to discuss this as well to keep to the topic, and see where it takes us

We are using many terms here which haven't been clearly defined, so their meaning may be ambiguous to the reader and ourselves as well.

So what's "The Light" and how do you "unite" with it (as you understand this).

Now I understand all is just semantics so it can be whatever you want, but I'm more interested in the concepts behind the terms. Many "New Agers" toss around lucrative complex terms and finish half of their sentences with "In Love and Light", which only demonstrates their ignorance and desire to "show off" that which they don't even understand, and very often totally misuse. I'm not saying you do this, it has simply been my experience, so that is why I'm trying to clarify stuff to avoid confusion and misunderstanding.

Oh and when I say "pure consciousness" I don't mean perfection, I just mean a total lack of physicality. Basically, anything of "The Spirit" is not physical, so I'd call it pure consciousness. Why the word "pure"? Because currently we're physical yet we also have our consciousness separated into the conscious and the subconscious mind, though it is still "with us", and we are still consciousness units. So "pure", as I use it, is to accentuate the absence of physicality in the "consciousness unit" (any entity), and the lack of separation of this consciousness into "zones" (as seems to be the case with humans).

Hope that makes sense.


[edit on 15-7-2004 by lilblam]

posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 05:31 AM
Hi all,

Earthsister, when you gracefully modified your post earlier in the thread I felt more inclined to look closer at your posts. Earlier posts that you have written concerning the greys led me to think you thought them a fine race of no worry to humanity in general. This, of course, made me suspicious considering the majority of info out there on these things says the opposite. However, after reading subsequent posts you have written about them I understand that this race is in fact censured by an oversight council of more advanced civilizations? I agree with what everybody is saying that the powers that be--earthwise--have their own interest and addiction to power in the forefront of their mind, and that they are tangled up with the greys for some of the same reasons--parasitic entities. But something that I am willing to admit as a possibility more so than before, while still remaining skeptical, is that in fact it is quite possible that other aliens are here without the same kind of negative domination-submission agenda as the greys. Reading your posts has helped me to consider this possibility as something quite possible.

Perhaps, and you can modify my thoughts on this, this benevolent oversight council is looking to contain a potentially dangerous instellar situation of both the greys gaining a stronger power base and/or/with the more negatively inclined humans gaining a stronger power base--making sure that some cosmic balance isnt put out of whack so to speak-- or simply and sensibly trying to protect themselves. Being that reality, at least as we know it, is a balance of forces, it seems reasonable to me that these negatively inclined EBES are not the only ones around. And considering that humans themselves are not polarized, in either a dark or light way completely, then it seems reasonable to me that humans of all kinds are attracting different aliens of all kinds of alignments. Maybe you could share your opinion on this. I am very intrigued with the possibilites you suggest as they are not the ones I am accustomed to hearing. As to your encounters with aliens--maybe you could share some more details about them--what they are like and much more if you could. I will, of course, in the interest of truthseeking remain skeptical and openminded.

As far as what Paul Richards speaks about the greys--I have good reason to believe that most of them are no good. I also think its pretty reasonable to assume that if they have been here for a while, then they have, like PR suggests, a pretty tough parameter set up. Earthsister, what is your opinion on this parameter around Earth in contrast and comparison with the activities of the oversight council.

Here is my two cents on the STS versus STO discussion--

I heard a term once called enlightened self-interest. Taking care of yourself in such a way as it overflows with goodness that helps take care of others. Supposing, in an idealistic way, that a great number of people did this, then there would be such an abundance of real happiness that STS and STO as separate phenomena would be indistinguishable.

Heirarchies--perhaps possible in a sense that doesnt involve the crude egotism we generally associate with the word. A good leader would possess the mental abilities to broadly assess a complex situation and command right action, whereas, a specialist would be an expert in a particular field. Both can be of the common good. In the old sense of the word heirarchy, the leader is considered better. But really, both types of persons are very valuable. In a situation without base egotism, while a semblance of heirarchy is present, the old forms of judgement are not applied to it. Perhaps the word heirarchy itself would cease to have much relevance then--we can hope that such a thing would exist at least.

Great thread!


posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 05:51 AM
Well, I just visited Earthsister's website out of curiousity.

Most of the members of the council she talks about are mostly, if not identically, resembling the Greys or Zetans. I assumed this council as stated as benevolent would not have these types of EBE's present. Rats.

Earthsister, maybe you could talk about this. Have you, or would you consider your own personal and in depth study into the information that is most widely accepted about these entities.



posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 07:07 AM

We are getting slightly off topic. If you wish to continue this discussion, perhaps you should start a new thread on The Light.

But I will comment on your response and answer your questions.

The Light Of The God Force is the nonliving, infinite, energy spectrum that permeates the discarnate dimensions. It is the energy that spirits use to communicate with one another telepathically, provide flashes of insight to those in the flesh, manifest telekinesis, healings, etc. One cannot directly use God Force energy unless one is not in the flesh. The more spiritually advanced the individual, the greater the ability to unite with The Light when free of matter.


It is true that as one spiritually progresses, at times one becomes aware that there is an interconnectedness in the Spirit.

After initiating The Big Bang, The Original Creator divided His consciousness completely and irreversibly up into trillions of basically spiritual entities or angels. All souls are fractals of light of The Original Creator. So there is truth behind the traditional notion that a part of God is within each of us. We are literally all that is left of The Original Creator. He will not exist in this space-time continuum until the time barrier is broken (which has yet to occur in any capacity) by future Ascended Masters.

The Original Creator had nothing to do with the formation of any of the traditional religions on this or any other planet. They were all orchestrated by large Group Entities of angels and subangels.

The Original Creator is not an underachiever, as many believe, He has simply yet to come. All the prophets of old were all opening acts of the main event to occur.

All this awareness took me many years to unravel and has all been confirmed from Spirit many times. Some of it is corroborated by insight given to other people. The reason why I find it relatively easy to embrace is simply because it is what I found to be the Absolute Truth when I was in the Spirit before this life, after centuries of research and investigation up there. So much of my journey in this life has been to relearn that which I have forgotten.


They are disciplined in their cultivation of selflessness, disciplined in their rejection of lust, disciplined in their avoidance of egotism, disciplined in their insistence to not sacrifice spiritual principle in order to be a part of a group consciousness, and disciplined in living by The Golden Rule. In this way, they slowly become a Light Onto Oneself, which is the path to eventually becoming co-creators.


In the beginning, everyone contained the potential to become God Realized; we all had the “god spark” or “monad” within us. It is up to us to cultivate our god spark in order to reach our spiritual potential.


Technically, one cannot be a direct member of a Group Entity unless one is in the Spirit. But you can be emotionally aligned with one.

I know that I am not a part of or aligned with a large GE because I have none of the perks of one, e.g., I have no significant Gift of Healing, Telekinesis, Charisma, etc.

I know that I am not part of or aligned with a large GE because I have progressed to the point whereby I can easily discern the purity of GE’s and I find them to be less pure and have a less genuine Soul Energy Signature (or particular spiritual presence) than the individualistic Saints/Archangels that I channel.

I know that I am not part of or aligned with a large GE because I have been persecuted by GE’s all my life.

That should do for now in answering that question.


Definition of terms is important.

Those in the Spirit are referred to as “discarnates.”

Those in the flesh are referred to as “incarnates.”

Most discarnates are lusty (as with most incarnates who are of the flesh). So I would not describe them as “pure” in any measure of definition. *L*

Angels are slightly lusty and subangels are very lusty. This I know simply from experience.

[edit on 15-7-2004 by Paul_Richard]

posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 07:13 AM
Hi Ishivaji,

You should upgrade your primate avatar.


The reason why the "members of the council" look that way is simply because EarthSister and her husband channel a Group Entity of discarnate Zetans.

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