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Agent Provocatuer's at ATS?

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posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


I can't imagine any provocateurs on ATS. The whole idea deals with provoking someone to do something illegal.

ATS members for the most part don't do anything outside of these forums dealing with the subject matter here. They have normal lives for the most part and other responsibilities. ATS operates as a vent for frustrated people and a kind of role playing escape fantasy for some who don't like to deal with life. Thats not many potential criminals.

On the other hand that doesn't mean police, FBI, contractors, or the military don't frequent the site. Some of us do frequent the site out of boredom, for amusement, Fortean hobbies, etc.

By far the most useful contribution that ATS has to offer to us is news. ATS hands down is faster and more informative than any of the major new media outlets, even AP or Reuters. Often there are international members at ground zero of any crisis or event, e.g. Korea.

The only other thing I can think of is OPSEC violations by usually new military members. No one is getting paid to keep an eye out for it. Its just the right thing to do and correct it when needed.


edit on 10/12/10 by MikeboydUS because:





posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Do you seriously think that COINTELPRO isnt involved in every major message board out there? Really? They admit they are on Facebook and the such...why is it a stretch that they are here?


I never said that. My contention is that a) You don't know one way or another despite your claim to "study" the issue. I don't think you could correctly identify an agent if you tried. You certainly have not proven you have any expertise in the matter; you've just tooted your own horn. b) ATS needs no provocateurs because it is nuts enough in its own right, and c) People may be listening in, but I doubt they are actively promoting any particular point of view. That's normally not their job.

If anyone is listening in, such as the NSA, here's how it works. An automatic sweep of the site is made and interpreted by pattern recognition software. If the software gets a hit because I've said something like, "Hey! NSA! Over here bud!
" then it gets a second level of analysis. If there is a statistical probability that there might be something there it goes to an analyst. This analysis is done by either a) a low level enlisted person in the armed forces (E-4, E-5, maybe E-6) who works at a NSA facility in some place like Fort Gordon, or b) a contractor working under contract for the armed services who hires the very same E-4-E-6 folks who have completed their enlistments, or c) the NSA itself whose recruits are, you guessed it, the same folks. Those analysts, normally 20-26 years old, will take one look at a thread like this and say, "These guys are nuts. Next." That's how it is done. I doubt seriously that they get anything relevant from ATS at all because nothing here is particularly threatening. You can bet your bottom dollar they are much more interested in militia boards than here because those guys are seriously scary and (could) represent a real threat to national security.

REAL "agent provocateurs" do not mess with aliens, ufos, and oh, my god, WikiLeaks low brow nonsense. They are involved in stuff like coaxing real jihadists who are up to some serious explosive plotting into betraying themselves before they look up their 72 virgins. They are listening in on some insurgency group as they talk on their cell phones. They are lookinmg for 'actionable' intelligence. That is vastly more important than jawing with a bunch of conspiracy nuts over the "facts" of cities on Mars, the Illuminati/NWO take over, and 2012 as end of world.





1)Please tell me where I a)said I was an expert on the matter; b)'tooted my own horn' and c) said I would or could specifically identify someone as an agent. I'll gladly wait for this. Youa re again using the tactic of diversion and personal attack. Nice try though.

2)You're correct, ATS doesn't NEED provocateurs. Is that proof that there aren't any? No. It's a thin argument again meant to deflect.

3)I never said they were promoting anything. Again, you are assuming far too much here, or don't comprehend what I'm saying. And I have to ask, how exactly do you know what is 'normally' their job?

4)Please, tell me where you got this info from. I dont disagree that this is a tactic used across the web as a whole. I'm just curious what makes you think you have the only facts and everyone else is irrelevant. I also wonder what makes you think it is limited to only this.

5)If you think nothing on ATS is particularly threatening, tell me why ATS has been labeled dangerous by many, and is banned in some countries.

6)So, even though it has been repeated time and time again by these agencies that you so obviously trust, you dont think that domestic terrorism and civil unrest are items deemed 'actionable'?

In closing I do have to point out how absolutely fantastic it is that you used the examples that you did to generalize this board.

"cities on Mars, the Illuminati/NWO take over, and 2012 as end of world. "

Let's analyze what you did there. You took the most extreme examples of topics on this site, and tried to pass it off as though they are the only things talked about on here. You present them as though they are lunatic fringe that need no analysis.

I will simply say this:
a)This is a discrediting tactic, and one that is used ad nauseum; and b)I have to wonder, why post here at all if t is only the loony fringe topics that anyone speaks of?



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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How absolutely and completely absurd. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You have nothing on anyone here that anyone is a so-called 'agent provocateur.' Nothing. Not that this thread doesn't have any company. After all, we are also asked to believe that the Illuminati are going to sell our souls to their reptilian gods, that someone is actually an alien because they say so, that the moon has 3 trillion residents, and that a toy ray gun made in China and adverised on eBay is the real deal. Oh, and Billy Meier visited dinosaurs in his time travel machine and that someone was using a cell phone in a 1930s Charlie Chaplin film.

Notice that the counter to this is to call me names. Sweet. No wonder the rest of the world discounts ATS as unworthy of attention. Would that it would deny ignorance, but it does not; it promotes it. Fortunately there are a few gems in the rough here, which is why I stay. This thread is not an example.

Excuse me, but I am late reporting to my superiors to find out what I should say next See you tomorrow with my new instructions.



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
How absolutely and completely absurd. You have no evidence. You have no proof. You have nothing on anyone here that anyone is a so-called 'agent provocateur.' Nothing. Not that this thread doesn't have any company. After all, we are also asked to believe that the Illuminati are going to sell our souls to their reptilian gods, that someone is actually an alien because they say so, that the moon has 3 trillion residents, and that a toy ray gun made in China and adverised on eBay is the real deal. Oh, and Billy Meier visited dinosaurs in his time travel machine and that someone was using a cell phone in a 1930s Charlie Chaplin film.

Notice that the counter to this is to call me names. Sweet. No wonder the rest of the world discounts ATS as unworthy of attention. Would that it would deny ignorance, but it does not; it promotes it. Fortunately there are a few gems in the rough here, which is why I stay. This thread is not an example.

Excuse me, but I am late reporting to my superiors to find out what I should say next See you tomorrow with my new instructions.

Can you prove they are not? If so, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, You are simply copping out.

I have called no names, but again, I will point out that your examples of this site are again the most extreme examples you could muster, thereby attacking not only my credibility, but the credibility of the site as a whole.

Every retort you have put out thus far has either been an attack, or a deflection. You refuse to even touch on the blatant lies you stated about me, let alone the subject at hand.

Right on que....
edit on 10-12-2010 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-12-2010 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



Can you prove they are not?


You can't prove a negative. Stop shifting the burden of proof away from the one who is making the claim, in this case, yourself.



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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A bit paranoid are we?

Just sit back and enjoy the show.



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Whyhi
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



Can you prove they are not?


You can't prove a negative. Stop shifting the burden of proof away from the one who is making the claim, in this case, yourself.



The point is, I am being asked to prove to you something that cannot be proven short of showing you their id's. It's no different than asking that person to prove a negative, as IT CANT BE DONE.

What would be great is if people in this thread could stop shifting it to a PERSONAL thing, and speak of the actual subject.

I will say it again, flat out. I believe they are on this site, and others that I frequent. There are specific reason why I believe this. Sorry if you dont like it, and if you dont believe it, then move on. Frankly, I couldnt care less.



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Are you sure you aren't getting the terms Agent Provocateur, Informant, HUMINT source, HUMINT Collector, SIGINT monitors, Clandestine HUMINT assets, and "useful idots" confused?

They are all quite different.



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 09:16 PM
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The military instructed it's members to post on forums to quash discussion and free thinking.

There are Federally Funded Agents on the internet acting against the very oath they took.



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Are you sure you aren't getting the terms Agent Provocateur, Informant, HUMINT source, HUMINT Collector, SIGINT monitors, Clandestine HUMINT assets, and "useful idots" confused?

They are all quite different.


Why the hostility Mikee boy???

No reason for it really now is there??? Nothing PERSONAL was meant with the posting of this thread. The truth as I see it is that there is room for everyone to express their words....but it can be done without hostility if one doesn't take it to heart and remember where they are.

I feel there is more than enough hostility in the world...right?

Smile


edit on 10-12-2010 by Holly N.R.A. because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


Are you sure you aren't getting the terms Agent Provocateur, Informant, HUMINT source, HUMINT Collector, SIGINT monitors, Clandestine HUMINT assets, and "useful idots" confused?

They are all quite different.


Yes, I'm quite sure. but thanks for checking!



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 10:35 PM
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I don't have a conspiratorial synapse and have always thought the labeling of people on public internet forums humorous. Who really cares what anyone says here? Only the other people who post here.
To think otherwise reeks of egocentrism and paranoia. If someone doesn't think as you do, too bad so sad, but it doesn't mean they are disinformationalists, paid provocatuers, agents of any kind, shill, or any of the other names thrown out there. It means they have different information, education, and/or experiences than you.
Nobody cares what an Indiana housewife and grandmother thinks about "chemtrails" or anything else. Yet at other places on the web, I've been "outed". It just makes all the claims here on this thread all the more funny...



posted on Dec, 10 2010 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by stars15k
 


Again, no one here is speaking in terms of those who disagree. I have had experiences(not many, mind you) with people that led me to believe they are exactly what the op thinks.

What I find most interesting about these threads is that no one bothers to ask why it is that someone believes what they do. It's an automatic jump to ridicule and personal attacking.



posted on Dec, 11 2010 @ 06:04 AM
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reply to post by Holly N.R.A.
 


Hostility? I was asking an honest question.

I thought he might of confused a Provoker with a Collector. Provocation and Collection are two very different things.

Sometimes people throw terms around on here and get confused.

I guess I should of have been really asking if you had the terms confused.

A Provocateur isn't going to troll on the forum. If there were one he would be the one inciting revolt and other nonsense, claiming to be a true patriot. Eventually contacting people by U2Us and getting personal data, before making real contact in the real world. He would earn your trust, teach how to do bad things, and then set events in motion that would lead to the arrest of whoever trusted him.

Someone trolling, spreading disinfo or misdirecting, etc would be classified as a "useful idiot".



edit on 11/12/10 by MikeboydUS because: Hail COBRA!



posted on Dec, 11 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by MikeboydUS
 


I honestly think it's a good thing you asked, just so that it is clear that I do not mean HUMINT and the such.

I have had people follow me from this board to others, acting as a provocateur. I dont really want to say much more than that, as my sn's and emails addresses have been changed since then, and I'd rather not have to do it again.



posted on Dec, 11 2010 @ 02:38 PM
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Hey, I’m back. I talked with my “handlers” (the creeps! They were actually angry at me for bothering them on a weekend.) Here’s the deal on ‘agent provocateurs’ on ATS. Nope, they don’t bother. ATS is subject to broad brush automated SIGINT sweeps like everything else, but there’s no budget for paying any ‘special attention’ to ATS. The web sites that get attention are jihadist or militia sites. Gun sites also get some attention, even though most of them are harmless. BATF sees everyone as a threat. The jihadist sites are a lot harder to deal with because they take trained linguists or native speakers of Arabic, Farsi, etc. But DLI (Defense Language Institute) only teachers those languages, plus Russian, Korean, German, etc. They don’t teach Swedish, so if you have a Swedish jihadist web site, they’ll probably fly right on by.

I asked why they don’t have any ‘agents’ on places like ATS. They just laughed. Jim (not his real name, of course) said, “Because despite the fact that some folks have a very high opinion of their own idiocy, they’re too stupid to tie their own shoelaces. That’s why they still use Velcro.” He also told me it’s because ATS is not a threat. It’s disorganized, not focused on anything in particular, and full of nonsense moonbeam theories. He also said, “I’m not sure, of course, since everything is compartmentalized and on a need to know basis, but from what I know of the NSA budget, they have to prioritize tasks. They can’t look at everything individually.”

I also asked about people who believe they have some ‘special insight’ on discovering ‘agents’ because they have ‘studied’ the issue. “Delusional,” he said. “We have thousands of spies who have alternative identities, right? If they couldn’t pull it off they’d all be caught within a week, and they’re being intentionally hunted by intelligence agencies who actually have some tradecraft knowledge and know what they’re doing, like Mossad, right? If these kids were actually a threat, I mean a REAL threat, the next time they answered their cell phones their face would be blown off.” Apparently Mossad did just that to one of their targets not long ago. I didn’t know that.

So next I asked, “So nobody is on Facebook and places like that?” “Sure they are,” he said. “There’s a lot of bang for the buck there. The way the web works is idea for creating flash mobs, for example. That takes place on places like Twitter and cell phone traffic. So if something big is about to happen, like students rioting in the UK, we know about it. But hey don't 'provoke' anything; they just listen.”

So the issue seems to be that nothing substantive has ever emerged from an ATS-like site. No ‘social change’ initiatives have ever started on ATS. But the nonsense just keeps on flowing. There’s a ‘demon in a deer trap’ picture that has started no less than a dozen ATS threads recently, all because of a clothing manufacturer ad. Basically ATS doesn’t have a very high rep. It is distracted by its own starry-eyed members’ willingness to believe literally anything anyone can make up, from reptilian gods to cities on the Moon. There are no “agent provocateurs” at ATS because, frankly, it’s not worth their time. There’s nothing suitable to provoke.

In that sense this thread is just like most of the others. Fictional foolishness that is long on speculation and short on facts. Though it does provide a certain level of entertainment.



posted on Dec, 11 2010 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


To the OP: Told ya



Shuyler: I didnt bother finishing reading your post, as once it followed your script of deflection, personal attacks, ridicule, flat out lying(which is really sad when anyone can go back and compare what I have said to what you are claiming I have said), and complete and utter lack of any backing whatsover, well, I just couldnt stomach reading any more.

Come back when you've got something to add, kiddo. Your are making yourself look extremely desperate here.


edit on 11-12-2010 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2010 @ 10:10 PM
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Why would people be tasked and paid to perform a service that we, the community of ATS, do without any incentive? The whole concept is laughable.

Follow... if we were, say, a Neo-nazi website, we would have a strong unity of specific concepts. We would all be on one page, at least on core issues... and we would be perceived as a threat. This applies to any website that comes with a very specific, narrow agenda.

ATS is built upon very vague similarities - even upon contradicting outlooks. Other than small core groups, in each forum, there is very little universality to us. So, by definition, we counter each other. No single agenda, idea, or set of agendas can rise to the surface. We lack cohesion of purpose.

And, for these reasons, we muddy our own waters sufficiently to not require help.

I am sure we are watched, to some degree. But it would be utterly redundant for anyone to actually earn money "misleading" us.

~Heff



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