Originally posted by Midnight Watchman
Not to argue your ultimate point, but a small correction to your statement - this is not true of "any" court of law. Systems based on the Napoleonic Code (like France, Switzerland, many South American countries), and any Civil proceeding in the U.S. a person is presumed guilty and must prove their innocence.

US law is not based upon the Napoleonic Code, it’s based on English common law, as interpreted by Locke.
Even in civil cases, the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. The only difference is that in criminal cases, guilt must be established beyond a reasonable doubt, while in civil cases, by a “preponderance” of the evidence.
In both cases, the charged is presumed completely innocent until it can be proven otherwise. The wisdom of this self-apparent: otherwise, any nutcase with a grudge could bring suit against somebody, making every citizen a victim.

This is even more pronounced from your example of Freemasonry. The very ridiculousness and abstractness of the charges levied against us are impossible to either prove or disprove. Any idiot can invent a quack conspiracy, and use it to demonize their opponent; for a case to be real, an actual grievance must have taken place, with evidence available to prove it.

Fiat Lvx.

I agree ML, and the whole charges and accusations, courtroom drama thing is bit over the top for a discussion forum anyway.

Anyway...

I do have some questions about freemasonry, purely academic interest, no agenda, not trying trick or box anybody in, but an attempt to understand a little more about WHY freemasonry appears to be linked with with so many conspiracy theories.

It it purely down to misunderstanding or people assuming the worst because of the secret aspects of masonry? Or is there some sort of more organized effort to defame freemasonry? If so, who? why?

eg.
In the same way that the original Illuminati group mentioned in this thread were said to have formed as a subversive element to fight orthodox religion, is it possible that someone, somewhere has reason to feel threatened by masonry, and is intentionally fighting it by way of directed propaganda?

btw. I read quite a bit from one links d1f posted earlier. Interesting stuff, particularly the origins in the guilds of masons. I have other questions, mainly historical, but I'll save those for another time/thread.

Originally posted by muppet


And as you rightly point out, there ARE NO infallible organizations or philosophical frameworks. That has been my point all along!!

Actually you are wrong.
Freemasonry is founded on 3 Grand Principles - Truth, Brotherly Love and Relief.

They are infallible.

Muppet,
You appear to actually be a genuine third party.
Forgive my surprise but most people who take the guise of independent observer are just Freemasons posting Dorothy Dixor questions to make Freemasonry look good.
The reason you get so savagely attacked when you question Freemasonry is because all Freemasons are systematically brainwashed to defend their cult from their enemies.
I don't use the term lightly, there is a lengthy course of rituals, confession, environment control, carrot & stick negotiations and liberal doses of Benzodiazopine drugs like Valium and Rohipnol.
If you saw my psychiatric and toxicology reports for Guy's Hospital in London you would wonder why there wasn't a swarm of police officers kicking in the lodge doors the day after my first failed initiation (I was accidentally overdosed the first time but it didn’t end there.)
Freemasonry creates the illusion within an individual that they are constantly under attack by an evil and unseen enemy and that they are the sworn protectors of Truth Justice etc…
The reality is that senior members of the cult use this polarization between inside & outside to overload an individual to the point where they no longer believe that it is possible for them to make there own decisions because anyone could be lying, cheating and stealing from them that their only protection is within the group.
They must defend the group at all costs as it is the only source of stimuli that they can “trust.”
It doesn’t take much to convince someone once they are in this state of anything but you generally allow multiple Masons to interpret multiple situations and the ones that match up best with your objectives are allocated to the specific “missions”.
Truth and reality have very little importance in Freemasonry.
There are no right and wrong answers in Freemasonry just as there are no fixed morals and a Mason is always a master of his craft in his own mind.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I don't use the term lightly, there is a lengthy course of rituals, confession, environment control, carrot & stick negotiations and liberal doses of Benzodiazopine drugs like Valium and Rohipnol.
If you saw my psychiatric and toxicology reports for Guy's Hospital in London you would wonder why there wasn't a swarm of police officers kicking in the lodge doors the day after my first failed initiation (I was accidentally overdosed the first time but it didn’t end there.)

I guess the good doctors of Guy's Hospital are unaware of the correct spelling of Benzodiazepine, and Rophynol (I think the inference that Masonic initiation relies on the "Date Rape Drug" is duplicitous), or maybe there is no toxicity report to be seen? I can extrapolate that by the nature of the drugs named (all being of the common "recreational" type) that some underlying unique (to you MrNECROS) circumstance, has or is occurring and has nothing to do with any Masonic order, or any "organization" for that matter. The drugs mentioned, BZD and GHB, can make someone TEMPORARILY compliant, however, the drug half life (persistence) is relatively short, and with it any consent that may have been sinisterly acquired. In other words if you were initiated under such circumstances you would barely remember it, if at all, and you certainly would not be compelled to continue any association with the perpetrators. In the odd chance that you may claim the regular administration of drugs to maintain this "compliance", you would be in a stupor, hardly of any value, and sooner or later... dead, This also brings up the question of how Masons managed to subvert it's members before 1960 (when the first BZD's were developed), perhaps alcohol? The thought that a bunch of Shanghaied pillars of the community, drunk out of their collective gourds while taking over the world; is just as plausible as any of your posts, MrNECROS.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Muppet,
You appear to actually be a genuine third party.
Forgive my surprise but most people who take the guise of independent observer are just Freemasons posting Dorothy Dixor questions to make Freemasonry look good.

LOL, yup I'm certainly not a mason! It's an intriguing subject though, but then I guess it's supposed to be. I hope you understand I have to take your story with the same healthy skepticism I do the freemasons side..

Could you give a few more details of your "initiation" and what happened (or point me to somewhere you've posted it?)

[Truth and reality have very little importance in Freemasonry.
There are no right and wrong answers in Freemasonry just as there are no fixed morals and a Mason is always a master of his craft in his own mind.


Yawn not another bloody Troll on this board again. What you have written is absurd and probably perverse. You offer no conclusive evidence that Freemasonry is the reason for causing people mental problems. It is obvious that you have a grudge against Freemasonry and the Freemasons. Until such time that you show there is evidence that has substance about Freemasonry having an adverse effect on the mental health of people; then what you have written will be be treated as perverse gossip.

Gerard O'Donnell

[edit on 10-7-2004 by Gerard]

Originally posted by muppet
Could you give a few more details of your "initiation" and what happened (or point me to somewhere you've posted it?)

Originally, this guy claimed to have been invited to join Masonry, but refused (I think it's on the thread concerning the 32°). Now, he's changed his story once again, fabricating a story that he was initiated.

Needless to say, Masonic initiation ceremonies have nothing to do with taking drugs....our rituals were written centuries before these drugs were even discovered!

Fiat Lvx.

Yeah. But he probably isn't lying about the psychiatric report - he probably has been committed for problems in the past. Maybe he was seeking help for a pathological liar syndrome?
Although his delusions have nothing to do with actual Freemasonry, I reckon an unbalanced character such as he probably does need a bit of mental therapy.

Originally posted by Sagasha
I just wanted to jump in for a second to say that The Punisher is speaking the truth. This organization is deeply entrenched in modern society. I have some good friends that are Mason's. There is an author out there that really did a lot of research on the Illuminati.....his name is Dan Brown. Two books in particular that will give you a lot to research are The Davinci Code and Angels and Demons. Believe me, these books contain a tremendous amount of history on secret societies, such as the Illuminati and Freemasons.

And this is why his books are found in the FICTION section of every bookstore. You know fiction as in made up, no proof, not real. If he had any real evidence to support his claim then maybe he claim his books to be real. He took real documents that were decayed with age so you cannot read them compleatly and he constructed a whole new story from them. just fill in the blanks. By his own addmission this is what he has done.