Originally posted by MrNECROS

The basic question all Freemasons should ask themselves - why should I trust someone who is teaching me to lie?

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist staying away.
As to the answer to your question?

You've been proven a liar many times on this forum. Why should anyone believe a word that you say?

here's my too sense.
freemasons, the jesuits, the church, islam, and the whole enchilada are infiltrated at the highest levels by an inner ring of conspirators. one shadow cabal bent on steering the world to comply with their vision.

illuminati is the word we all use to describe this cabal. the original illuminati were probabably good guys, as pointed out by masonic light. the fact that they were driven underground by the truth oppressing church long ago, does not mean the group disbanded or that the church was successful. if the group stayed together in dark backrooms and ultra secrecy, does not indicate that the original intention of the group was retained. in fact, if they were successful at hiding and pulling political strings(all invisible hand-like), it would be a kind of 'absolute power' and would corrupt absolutely.

remember how tom sawyer got everyone else to whitewash his fence? great trick, that one. the classics never die. i don't believe freemasons are evil. i do believe most who join are motivated by the potential networking power. it is a well known fact that freemasonry opens real world doors and business opportunities for members. so then, it is a natural path to the power elite for those who prove through thought and action that they have 'the right stuff'. i believe this group is quite small, but very powerful. you believe what you like, but everyone should stop claiming they 'know', because frankly, none of us knows manure as far as the big picture goes(unless, of course, you're one of 'them', in which case you would deny vehemently that the plan exists).


[edit on 6-7-2004 by billybob]

Invisible hand...sounds like someones had too much Deus Ex

Originally posted by Mystic7
I bought this book in 1991 and tried 3X to read it... and everytime I tried to read it, I immediately felt so unbelievable drowsy - I would fall asleep! And it wasn't because it was 'boring', because it wasn't. I felt as if I were being 'deliberately' made to feel sleepy (as weird as that may sound) by 'unseen' forces - so I would abandon reading the book... and so I did.

I haven't read the DaVinci Code for fear of the same thing happening

That's so weird! I had a similar thing happen when I read this book. I didn't get sleepy, but everytime I picked it up and started reading, I felt like an anxiety attack might come on. Every time! I did eventually get through it, but it was a very strange feeling and although I read often, I've never before had this experience.

I had no problems with the DaVinci Code.

The more we tell the truth the more some people will never accpet it. If I was to say that Freemasonry is a cover for the' Great World Conspiracy' and that only the 'higher degrees' of Freemasonry are part of it. I am sure many people would believe this. If I was to add that at the very highest levels that the Freemasons were really aliens who took the form of Human Beings and were really reptiles. I am sure there would be people who would readily believe this.

The reality is that there are people who hate Freemasonry because Freemasonry is a orgnisation that helps all people. It is an organisation that believes in high levels of public morality and giving charity to people who are in need of help. In the UK the Freemasons give lots of money to non Freemasons. Last year the Grand Lodge of Scotland gave over£250,000 to a children's cancer charity. This was supported by all the Msonic orders in scotland.
The Truth will make you free and lies will make you a slave. The truth is sometimes not exciting but to end this post GREAT IS THE TRUTH AND MIGHTY ABOVE ALL THINGS.

Brother Gerard O'Donnell.

So Freemasonry has a centralised leadership? They have one leading body? I know the answer, I know the Masons know the answer, but do all you experts that aren't masons know the answer?

Basically, how does the Masonic leadership structure work? That should help to debunk this crap.

[edit on 5-7-2004 by Darktalon]

Guys.. why are you all so aggressive?

Why can't you just ignore something if you don't agree with it, or post sensible rational arguments that don't resort to sarcasm or personal insults?

Al least I feel I'm owed an answer to my question earlier in this thread, namely, why is freemasonry infallible? Leveller? It's a serious question and deserves a serious answer.

Originally posted by Gerard
. Last year the Grand Lodge of Scotland gave over£250,000 to a children's cancer charity. This was supported by all the Msonic orders in scotland.

as a generous, brotherly lovin' freemason, you really shouldn't get mad at people for having independent thought.
bill gates gives away lots of money, too. so, does that make the king of unfair competition and the engulf and devour business style a good man? or is it just a cover, so he can say, 'look, i gave money to charity, i'm not evil'.
i like the million dollar ramses club. 32nd degree is it? do you get that bumper sticker for giving away a million?

I don't think any of us "brotherly lovin" freemasons have an issue with people having independent thought, in fact that is one thing we as well as the craft supports. However one thing we do have an issue with, are the false accusations and claims of the craft from outsiders which in most cases are negative and un-merited. Freemasonry is an organization dedicated to the improvement of man and mankind. To claim such connections between Freemasonry and a group like the Illuminati whos supposed goals and means of achieving them are in direct contridiction to those of Freemasonry is rather insulting, hence why some of us might not be so understanding about it.

HOTEP

Originally posted by MrNECROS
The reason people like myself post to these forums isn't because we have nothing better to do - we have genually been abused and many people like myself even have medical records and written documents that substantiate our claims, but the police and government agencies strangely ignore our cases.
Once you get out of the hospital you're on your own against a cowardly society of thousands of brainwashed zealots.
The basic question all Freemasons should ask themselves - why should I trust someone who is teaching me to lie?

I knew you couldn't stay away, too
So, you're blaming you dislike of Masonry of some sort of brutality you encountered in your life? Some sort of transference?
Where is this cowardly society that you alone are trying to save?

Lastly, I don't think you need to be taught to lie, more likely you need to find the truth. Truth will comfort a tortured soul.
Deny ignorance.

Originally posted by Khonsu
However one thing we do have an issue with, are the false accusations and claims of the craft from outsiders which in most cases are negative and un-merited. Freemasonry is an organization dedicated to the improvement of man and mankind. To claim such connections between Freemasonry and a group like the Illuminati whos supposed goals and means of achieving them are in direct contridiction to those of Freemasonry is rather insulting, hence why some of us might not be so understanding about it.
HOTEP

Then you should develop a thicker skin, or stop hanging around on conspiracy sites.

Freemasonry, whether you like it or not, is a perfectly legitimate subject for discussion. My original comment wasn't even addressed to a freemason, yet unleashed a torrent of ridicule

I for example am British, a Royalist, and work in the media, yet I don't get mad or feel the need to aggressively interrogate those who suggest media or royalty related conspiracies.

Read the thread, and my posts again, and you'll see I state CLEARLY that I am not attacking Freemasons. I AM stating that in an organization of it's type there IS potential for some to have darker agendas.

To refuse to even consider this as a possibility seems, to an "outsider", irrational.

Originally posted by muppet
Read the thread, and my posts again, and you'll see I state CLEARLY that I am not attacking Freemasons. I AM stating that in an organization of it's type there IS potential for some to have darker agendas.

And as was stated to you before, by your logic any group of more than one person can therefore be guilty of a dark agenda.

Can you prove that your close family isn't intent on taking over the world?
Can you prove that they aren't taking part in Satanic ritual?
Can you prove that Mom and Dad haven't got some dark, sick, secret agenda that will cause the downfall of mankind?


Your only argument is that Freemasons are guilty because they are human.

For the third time, Why is Freemasonry infallible?

[edit on 6-7-2004 by muppet]

Sorry, I just realised that was a presumptuous question. I'll reframe it..

Is Freemasonry infallible?

a. yes
b. no

Delete as applicable

I don't have to answer that question. As I've stated time and time again - you are the one making the accusation.

It's up to you to tell us why it's not infallible. You haven't been able to do this. All you have done is given a gobbledy-gook excuse of human nature. I will defend a direct accusation when I see one. So far, I haven't seen you make one. All you have said is that Freemasonry is guilty.

Now I don't know about the way you look at things but in any court of law, there has to have been proof of a crime and evidence of guilt before anyone has to defend themselves. The same goes with making accusations. You need more than just "Freemasons must be up to something because they are human beings". Until you can supply a proper argument, you are just making noise.

Man, are you guys paranoid. Never mind.

As you were.

Originally posted by LevellerNow I don't know about the way you look at things but in any court of law, there has to have been proof of a crime and evidence of guilt before anyone has to defend themselves. The same goes with making accusations. You need more than just "Freemasons must be up to something because they are human beings". Until you can supply a proper argument, you are just making noise.

Not to argue your ultimate point, but a small correction to your statement - this is not true of "any" court of law. Systems based on the Napoleonic Code (like France, Switzerland, many South American countries), and any Civil proceeding in the U.S. a person is presumed guilty and must prove their innocence.

It looks like that's what's happening here - it's a Civil issue, a claim has been made, and now the Masons are required to defend themselves.

This is no different than if I were to accuse my neighbor in Civil court of cutting down my tree. He's assumed guilty, and must bring proof of his innocence or the judge will rule in my favor.

Originally posted by muppet
Is Freemasonry infallible?

Though it does appear you trying to build a box and I am not a mason, I will give it a shot.

Looking at freemasonry a philosophical framework of thought created by humans, if one human applies freemasonic philosophy and reaches the wrong conclusion just once, freemasonry is not infallible. Since nobody is ever right 100% of the time, freemasonry is not infallible.

If you are referring to freemasonry as a group of people and any freemason disagrees just once with another freemason, one of them must be wrong, so freemasonry is not infallible.

muppet: Specify just one human organization or philosophical framework which is infallible.

Just one. That should be easy...

I dare you.

I double dare you.
.

Originally posted by Midnight Watchman
It looks like that's what's happening here - it's a Civil issue, a claim has been made, and now the Masons are required to defend themselves.

Well if you're being picky and clearly you are, let's take your own argument.

You claim that "This is no different than if I were to accuse my neighbor in Civil court of cutting down my tree".

Cutting down the tree is a specific accusation. What is the specific accusation here?
I restate again: the argument that freemasons are bad because they are human is not a credible claim or accusation. If that were the case, it can be assumed that anything with human involvement is faulty. Perhaps in general, the pessimist would agree with this sweeping statement, but as an argument it is a very poor one.

muppet: Specify just one human organization or philosophical framework which is infallible.

Just one. That should be easy...

I dare you.

I double dare you.
.

thank you d1f for answering my question. I'm sorry I had to be so insistent.

And as you rightly point out, there ARE NO infallible organizations or philosophical frameworks. That has been my point all along!!

I was quite surprised when my making of exactly that point resulted in such a fiery response. Insults, assumptions, sarcasm, interrogation, references to my parents, you name it... all for pointing out the bleedin' obvious!! "Yes, I agree, so what?" would at least have saved us all some typing.

FWIW, as an "outsider", most of the "taking over the world" type theories seem just as unlikely to me as they do to you guys. I can see why you might get a little pi**ed at people who come here misquoting or mis-interpreting details of stuff you actually know about... but please PLEASE don't assume every person who shows a level of healthy skepticism is out to get you.




[edit on 6-7-2004 by muppet]