the illuminati and freemasons, page 2
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reply posted on 4-7-2004 @ 12:41 PM by df1
Originally posted by Valkyr
Df1, is it really necessary to use sarcasm?

Yes it is. Your position is absurd, so I addressed it with the absurdity it deserved.


If it's said that the people should watch organisations like the Masons, who remain fairly mysterious to those outside of it. Whereas the Elvis Fans are simply those who appreciate Elvis.

Just an assumption on your part. You really do not know. Just like you assume unsupported facts about the masons.

Perhaps you'd like to share the fundamentals of the Mason organisation, just to clarify it to me, but as far as I know they're about helping themselves and each other, and there's money involved.

I am not your mommy, your teacher or mentor. If you require clarification on the masons the information is available. I am surprised that you choose to comment on issues that you have just stated require clarification for you. I would suggest that you gain clarity prior to commenting, it would make things far less embarassing for you.

Help them do what?

Help them understand themselves as individuals. Help them understand their relation to God. Help them understand their place in the universe. Help them be tolerant of others. Of course if you had bothered reading even a modest amount your question would not have been required.

Why do they need money?

What a silly question. They need money for the same reasons as every other organization. Money is used to support charity, buy goods and buy services. What answer did you expect?
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reply posted on 4-7-2004 @ 02:18 PM by Masonic Light
Originally posted by Valkyr
Surely if all the speculation is so wrong, then we all need clarification. Stop saying the information is out there and start telling it direct, if you're a Mason then tell us rather than fart around and let us research ourselves leading to finding apparent rubbish about Illuminati links or whatever.


All this has been elaborated upon ad nauseum on this forum, in an almost infinite number of threads. These threads usually spread out to 5 or 6 pages, then fade into oblivion, only to have someone else start a new on the exact same subject, asking the exact same questions, a few days later.

It is true that Masonry had (at least indirect) ties to the real Illuminati. But the real Illuminati, and the “Illuminati” of conspiracy theorists, are two completely different things. The latter is the product of hysteria, paranoia, and papist propaganda, and has never existed outside of the fantasies of those inclined to conspiracies everywhere.

The real Illuminati was a semi-secret fraternal organization founded in 1776 in Bavaria (in what is now Germany) by Dr. Adam Weishaupt and Adolph Von Knigge. Both of these men were Masons, as were most other members of the Illuminati, including Goethe, Mozart, and the Comte de St. Germaine.

We know that Weishaupt was a professor of law at Ingolstadt University previous to having formed the Illuminati. We also know that he was fired by the Jesuit governors because he was a Deist and a “free thinker”, and “encouraged his students to become free thinkers.” Liberal professors are the norm nowadays, but were not tolerated by the Roman Catholic Church or Jesuit Electorate of Bavaria.

Weishaupt formed the Illuminati for the purpose of righting these wrongs. Since it was illegal to openly question the government or the Church, he was forced to organize his new Society in secret. At the time, “illuminati” was a general term applied to all “free thinkers”, who had been “illuminated” by the Enlightenment. He therefore chose this name for his Society.

The Illuminati consisted of 12 degrees, with the 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees being the first three degrees of Masonry. The Illuminati’s 7th degree was practically identical to the degree called Scottish Knight of St. Andrew in the Rite of Perfection, which is now the 29th degree of the Scottish Rite of Masonry.

The Illuminati became revolutionary, and were strongly influenced by the revolution in the American colonies. In America, an Illuminist secret society called the Sons of Liberty was formed, and its leaders were Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Franklin. Their purpose was to organize the revolutionary movement, and Weishaupt began basing his Illuminati on the model provided by the Sons of Liberty.

The ultimate purpose of the Illuminati was to overthrow the Church’s dictatorship in Bavaria, and establish a constitutional democracy, which allowed free speech, freedom of religion, and separation of church and state. Almost immediately, the Illuminati were infiltrated by the Bavarian secret police, which ended with the dissolution of the Order a decade later, and Weishaupt having fled into exile, where he died.

The Church immediately began a propaganda campaign against Illuminism, Freemasonry, and free thought in general. They claimed that Masonic societies were responsible for the “satanic” revolution in the Colonies, and for the separation of church and state. It was thus the duty of all god-fearing men to oppose “Illuminism, Freemasonry, Liberalism, and reading and intellectual societies” on behalf of Mother Church, who was the only legitimate authority. Since the Illuminati called the Church a liar, by stating that all legitimate authority rests with the people instead of the Church, it must be eliminated.

Modern conspiracy theory is directly descended from the Inquisition’s absurd superstitions, and the Church’s violent anti-intellectual propaganda campaigns against freedom of thought and conscience. Modern conspiracy theories use the exact same arguments as did their Jesuit forebears. It was a scourge on reason and liberty then, and remains so today.

Fiat Lvx.


reply posted on 4-7-2004 @ 06:20 PM by df1
Originally posted by Valkyr
if you're a Mason


I am not a mason, however after making several uninformed comments myself, I have taken the time read rather than continuing to make comments which expose my ignorance. After my extensive reading about freemasonry it is easy for me to conclude that the organization has nothing but noble intentions to the extent that it has peaked my interest in joining.

welcome.to...
This website has a number of free ebooks, the book by steinmetz "Freemasonry The Hidden Meaning" provides a concise overview of the first 3 degrees. Thus far I am in awe of pike's immense "Morals and Dogma" though I have only read the first 3 degrees plus some excerpts of the others to this point.

I am not skilled at spoonfeeding, so that is about the best you get from me. I will not bother you any further, masons are more than able to defend their craft without my help.
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