the illuminati and freemasons

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way, Freemasonry is not centrally located, or directed. The "Darker Elements" would have to exist and control in 50 state Grand Lodges, plus Washington DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, The Virgin Islands, Prince Hall, And all the Concordant/Appendant Bodies just to have their "Eeeeevviiilll" way in the U.S. and it's territories. Our favorite Evil Scientist (gratuitous Austin Powers reference for the dull minded) will be working overtime to clone all the necessary "Muckity Mucks" to pull this one off. I'm sure this concept is supported because of the prevalence of "Bald Guys" in Grand Lodge Hierarchy, but it's really just a product of the time it takes to get to these lofty positions of "World Domination".

Mirthful,

An amusing illustration, but a naive one. The hierarchy as you understand it will have no more relevance to the "darker elements" of freemasonry, than the machinations of the Vatican are relevant to Christian Fundamentalism.

Understand that, and you will understand why we must remain watchful.

[edit on 4-7-2004 by muppet]

Originally posted by Sagasha
OK.....if the supposed facts in Dan Brown's work regarding the Illuminati and Priory of the Sion are not accurate, please tell us what the truth is. Do not post links to someone else's work....tell us how you know.

You know because you educate yourself on the subject. It's as simple as that. You don't want links yet you are prepared to believe Dan Brown's sources?
Where is the logic in that?

Muppet: Your comment is too broad to be realistic. By your way of thinking everything should be watched with suspicion. Well that's fine - but just don't single us out through ignorance.

Originally posted by Leveller
Muppet: Your comment is too broad to be realistic. By your way of thinking everything should be watched with suspicion. Well that's fine - but just don't single us out through ignorance.

No, not everything. just international multi-million member pseudo religious organizations. Could one make any sense of Islamic terrorism if one had not attempted first to understand Islam for example?

I wasn't singling you out. The thread title is "The Illuminati and Freemasons". You're welcome to infer ignorance though, if you like.

Originally posted by muppet
As with any organization with the potential to influence millions of people around the globe, it's prudent that those of us outside the organization to keep an eye on it.

So following your logic we should be keeping an eye on the 'elvis fan club'. After all its the only prudent thing to do, lord knows what influence this group is exerting on those outside of their organization. I've heard the 'elvis fan club' is working on cloning a million man army of elvi with bionic hips. This is certainly the work of lucifer. Your neighbor that innocently purchased that elvis bobble head really has no idea how the money is being spent by the international organization.

Of course I am being sarchastic, but I could just as well be referring to the catholic church, afl/cio or a muliplicity of other organizations where local members have no idea what is being done by those higher up the hierarchy in their name.

What makes the masons so uniquely different as to require the attention you justify?

Just Asking.
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way, Freemasonry is not centrally located, or directed. The "Darker Elements" would have to exist and control in 50 state Grand Lodges, plus Washington DC, Puerto Rico, Guam, The Virgin Islands, Prince Hall, And all the Concordant/Appendant Bodies just to have their "Eeeeevviiilll" way in the U.S. and it's territories.

Surely if it's not central then the darker elements would simply be those members with ulterior motives. Correct me if I'm mistaken but Mason's help each other, and it's about trust and loyalty. What better way to have darker factions with support?

Originally posted by df1
What makes the masons so uniquely different as to require the attention you justify?

Just Asking.
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See my post above (we must have both posted at the same time I guess! ) Mason's are not uniquely different. They just happen to the the topic of this thread. As I say, I do not mean to offend Masons, but as an organization they are not infallible, much as some members would like to think.

Df1, is it really necessary to use sarcasm? In the context of your usage it indicates an inability to aptly argue your point. If it's said that the people should watch organisations like the Masons, who remain fairly mysterious to those outside of it. Whereas the Elvis Fans are simply those who appreciate Elvis.
Perhaps you'd like to share the fundamentals of the Mason organisation, just to clarify it to me, but as far as I know they're about helping themselves and each other, and there's money involved. Help them do what? Why do they need money?

Originally posted by muppet
An amusing illustration, but a naive one. The hierarchy as you understand it will have no more relevance to the "darker elements" of freemasonry, than the machinations of the Vatican are relevant to Christian Fundamentalism.

I can only assume this is based upon personal observation, perhaps while serving in an elected or appointed Masonic Office? Since you have this wealth of knowledge on the subject, perhaps you will enlighten us as to the identities and designs of the "Darker Elements"?

Originally posted by muppet
Understand that, and you will understand why we must remain watchful.

I do remain watchful, usually Ren & Stimpy, or Cow & Chicken (The Red Guy really cracks me up) just for the dose of "Reality" after a hard day at ATS.

Originally posted by Valkyr
Df1, is it really necessary to use sarcasm?

Yes it is. Your position is absurd, so I addressed it with the absurdity it deserved.

If it's said that the people should watch organisations like the Masons, who remain fairly mysterious to those outside of it. Whereas the Elvis Fans are simply those who appreciate Elvis.

Just an assumption on your part. You really do not know. Just like you assume unsupported facts about the masons.

Perhaps you'd like to share the fundamentals of the Mason organisation, just to clarify it to me, but as far as I know they're about helping themselves and each other, and there's money involved.

I am not your mommy, your teacher or mentor. If you require clarification on the masons the information is available. I am surprised that you choose to comment on issues that you have just stated require clarification for you. I would suggest that you gain clarity prior to commenting, it would make things far less embarassing for you.

Help them do what?

Help them understand themselves as individuals. Help them understand their relation to God. Help them understand their place in the universe. Help them be tolerant of others. Of course if you had bothered reading even a modest amount your question would not have been required.

Why do they need money?

What a silly question. They need money for the same reasons as every other organization. Money is used to support charity, buy goods and buy services. What answer did you expect?
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me
I can only assume this is based upon personal observation, perhaps while serving in an elected or appointed Masonic Office? Since you have this wealth of knowledge on the subject, perhaps you will enlighten us as to the identities and designs of the "Darker Elements"?

LOL.. Do you think I'd tell you if I knew??

for the record I'm not a Mason and never have been. My dad and grandad were, but never spoke about it. (I was very young then though)

seriously though. Most of what I've learned about freemasonry has come from you guys, online texts such as Morals and Dogma, and various books I've previously read by the likes of James Allen and Napoleon Hill. presumably masons themselves.. at a guess. It all seems to piece together into a philosophy that attempts to combine the best of religious faith and morals, with a more enlightened, rational, even humanist world view. As a non-mason, that's my best guess as to what it's all about. Please correct me if I'm way off the mark here.

All of this though does not somehow make Freemasonry immune to the issues that face every other religious, philosophical or political body of similar size. To believe otherwise, I'm sorry to say this, is naive.




[edit on 4-7-2004 by muppet]

Originally posted by muppet
All of this though does not somehow make Freemasonry immune to the issues that face every other religious, philosophical or political body of similar size.

Ok, you're the one making the accusation so you're the one who should justify it. Expand on your statement. Why doesn't it?

Originally posted by Leveller
Ok, you're the one making the accusation so you're the one who should justify it. Expand on your statement. Why doesn't it?

Because people are people, not angels. To be a mason does not make one a saint.

Whether you like it or not, some people DO have hidden agendas. Some people DO seek power or influence over others. Some people DO seek to harness the reputation or perceived influence of a body, such as the Masons, to further their own ends.

Now, your turn. Why IS freemasonry infallible?

Just an assumption on your part. You really do not know. Just like you assume unsupported facts about the masons.

I don't assume anything. Perhaps you should read my posts properly. I'm not taking a side, I'm not speculating, I'm just pointing out the holes in your arguement.

I am not your mommy, your teacher or mentor. If you require clarification on the masons the information is available. I am surprised that you choose to comment on issues that you have just stated require clarification for you. I would suggest that you gain clarity prior to commenting, it would make things far less embarassing for you.

Surely if all the speculation is so wrong, then we all need clarification. Stop saying the information is out there and start telling it direct, if you're a Mason then tell us rather than fart around and let us research ourselves leading to finding apparent rubbish about Illuminati links or whatever.

Originally posted by Valkyr
Surely if all the speculation is so wrong, then we all need clarification. Stop saying the information is out there and start telling it direct, if you're a Mason then tell us rather than fart around and let us research ourselves leading to finding apparent rubbish about Illuminati links or whatever.

All this has been elaborated upon ad nauseum on this forum, in an almost infinite number of threads. These threads usually spread out to 5 or 6 pages, then fade into oblivion, only to have someone else start a new on the exact same subject, asking the exact same questions, a few days later.

It is true that Masonry had (at least indirect) ties to the real Illuminati. But the real Illuminati, and the �Illuminati� of conspiracy theorists, are two completely different things. The latter is the product of hysteria, paranoia, and papist propaganda, and has never existed outside of the fantasies of those inclined to conspiracies everywhere.

The real Illuminati was a semi-secret fraternal organization founded in 1776 in Bavaria (in what is now Germany) by Dr. Adam Weishaupt and Adolph Von Knigge. Both of these men were Masons, as were most other members of the Illuminati, including Goethe, Mozart, and the Comte de St. Germaine.

We know that Weishaupt was a professor of law at Ingolstadt University previous to having formed the Illuminati. We also know that he was fired by the Jesuit governors because he was a Deist and a �free thinker�, and �encouraged his students to become free thinkers.� Liberal professors are the norm nowadays, but were not tolerated by the Roman Catholic Church or Jesuit Electorate of Bavaria.

Weishaupt formed the Illuminati for the purpose of righting these wrongs. Since it was illegal to openly question the government or the Church, he was forced to organize his new Society in secret. At the time, �illuminati� was a general term applied to all �free thinkers�, who had been �illuminated� by the Enlightenment. He therefore chose this name for his Society.

The Illuminati consisted of 12 degrees, with the 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees being the first three degrees of Masonry. The Illuminati�s 7th degree was practically identical to the degree called Scottish Knight of St. Andrew in the Rite of Perfection, which is now the 29th degree of the Scottish Rite of Masonry.

The Illuminati became revolutionary, and were strongly influenced by the revolution in the American colonies. In America, an Illuminist secret society called the Sons of Liberty was formed, and its leaders were Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and Franklin. Their purpose was to organize the revolutionary movement, and Weishaupt began basing his Illuminati on the model provided by the Sons of Liberty.

The ultimate purpose of the Illuminati was to overthrow the Church�s dictatorship in Bavaria, and establish a constitutional democracy, which allowed free speech, freedom of religion, and separation of church and state. Almost immediately, the Illuminati were infiltrated by the Bavarian secret police, which ended with the dissolution of the Order a decade later, and Weishaupt having fled into exile, where he died.

The Church immediately began a propaganda campaign against Illuminism, Freemasonry, and free thought in general. They claimed that Masonic societies were responsible for the �satanic� revolution in the Colonies, and for the separation of church and state. It was thus the duty of all god-fearing men to oppose �Illuminism, Freemasonry, Liberalism, and reading and intellectual societies� on behalf of Mother Church, who was the only legitimate authority. Since the Illuminati called the Church a liar, by stating that all legitimate authority rests with the people instead of the Church, it must be eliminated.

Modern conspiracy theory is directly descended from the Inquisition�s absurd superstitions, and the Church�s violent anti-intellectual propaganda campaigns against freedom of thought and conscience. Modern conspiracy theories use the exact same arguments as did their Jesuit forebears. It was a scourge on reason and liberty then, and remains so today.

Fiat Lvx.

Thank you for that. It explained a fair bit. However, I'm sure some apparent Mason will post and deny it all, which is the difficulty- who to believe? If someone does do that, despite your fair explanation which seems to convey the organisations as good people, surely by just denying all connections, despite the truth in some (if not all) of it, will just lead people to believe there is a conspirital/overly-secretive edge.

Originally posted by Valkyr
However, I'm sure some apparent Mason will post and deny it all, which is the difficulty- who to believe? If someone does do that, despite your fair explanation which seems to convey the organisations as good people, surely by just denying all connections, despite the truth in some (if not all) of it, will just lead people to believe there is a conspirital/overly-secretive edge.

As usual, the scholarly ML has succinctly debunked the crux of the thread (kudos to you ML, too bad there aren't patience ATS points) and set the record straight. The continued eschewment of the ATS search function is a frustration to all; the periodic reiteration of the same tired tripe, an intellectual burden. As to the possibility of an "apparent Mason" being able to attempt, much less satisfactorily contradict ML's post, it's rather remote.


[edit on 4/7/2004 by Mirthful Me]

good post ML. an "illuminating" read.

Originally posted by Valkyr
if you're a Mason

I am not a mason, however after making several uninformed comments myself, I have taken the time read rather than continuing to make comments which expose my ignorance. After my extensive reading about freemasonry it is easy for me to conclude that the organization has nothing but noble intentions to the extent that it has peaked my interest in joining.

welcome.to...
This website has a number of free ebooks, the book by steinmetz "Freemasonry The Hidden Meaning" provides a concise overview of the first 3 degrees. Thus far I am in awe of pike's immense "Morals and Dogma" though I have only read the first 3 degrees plus some excerpts of the others to this point.

I am not skilled at spoonfeeding, so that is about the best you get from me. I will not bother you any further, masons are more than able to defend their craft without my help.
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me
As usual, the scholarly ML has succinctly debunked the crux of the thread (kudos to you ML, too bad there aren't patience ATS points) and set the record straight. The continued eschewment of the ATS search function is a frustration to all; the periodic reiteration of the same tired tripe, an intellectual burden. As to the possibility of an "apparent Mason" being able to attempt, much less satisfactorily contradict ML's post, it's rather remote.

MM, I quite agree with everything you said.
I would like to add that these threads do not just innocently pop up every few days. They seem to be deliberate attempts at people like the Punisher, etal (who shall remain nameless--we don't want to get them going again ) to created chaos instead of deny ignorance.

For the record, from what I know of the Masons, it seem to me that once a person embarked on the jounrey to the dark side, away from the light, he would no longer be a true Mason. I would think he would either fade away from the Lodge or some such thing. Hasn't it been said before that behavior unbecoming to Masonry is not tolerated????

I find the Enron reference quite telling really - the scary thing at Enron was that every outside contractor I know who actually walked into the building could see it was a scam yet EVERYONE who was working in the company believed that they were "working on a different level" and that Enron's business model was the "new way forward in business".
If you didn't BELEIVE in Enron you would not be progress and would be fired at first opportunity.
Seriously, you could not explain to a department manager that $2M a year was to much to pay for a piece of software that was only processing $500,000 worth of orders (turnover not profit.)
This is what my experience with Freemasonry mirrors - everyone who is in the cult wants to believe that they are part of something truly amazing and beautiful and that anyone who has objections or complaints against them must be wrong.
The reason people like myself post to these forums isn't because we have nothing better to do - we have genually been abused and many people like myself even have medical records and written documents that substantiate our claims, but the police and government agencies strangely ignore our cases.
Once you get out of the hospital you're on your own against a cowardly society of thousands of brainwashed zealots.
The basic question all Freemasons should ask themselves - why should I trust someone who is teaching me to lie?