WWII rifles. Are they still viable?, page 3

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reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 12:21 AM by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Are WWII weapons still viable?

haha, where I come from, all we have are WWII rifles. It's not about how new or how many fancy add ons it has, it's about how effective the person using it is.

My fav's: Lee-Enfield (.303 British), Tokarev SVT-40 (7.62mm), Springfield 30-06

And honestly, WWII-era guns are probably the most reliable in the world, aside from the Kalashnikov series. Cartridge rounds and wood+steel (or iron) made them solid guns in all aspects; guns started to decline in effectiveness as soon as they were made to accommodate people, instead of people adapting to the guns.

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 05:49 AM by stirling

The biggest trouble with the WW2 guns is their wieght and length, and the weight of the ammo.
If penetration , and range are the issue, then ww2 guns excell.
A full size M1 garand is not the easiest carry three hours into a hike....plus they need a special clip to hold five rounds.....
Newer weapons with higher capacity mags, lighter materials, and designed around different warfighting parameters,dont tend to be as sturdy, however when it come to putting lead downrange, they are unequalled by older stuff(except when belt fed)There is really no comparison with the ww2 stuff.
Two exceptions would be the ak47, and the sturmgewher 43 german assult rifle.The ak being a late commer.

For hunting, and general rough use, your bolt actions are much more robust, and function better in extreme weather conditions...
Remember the more moving parts, the quicker they can foul from all kinds of things...frost,dirt,residue powders. etc.Cold weather(minus freezing) requires specialised lubrication for some semis...
Also the new stainless steel guns (semis)are bad jammers when the wrong lube is used....(say in the rain or wet....)
When it come to killing, the best gun for animals is not nessessarily the same gun youd use for people.
I should add its not the gun, its the person using it that makes it effective or not.
Your tactical stance to a large degree is determined by the armament your using at the time....

edit on 10-12-2010 by stirling because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 06:02 AM by Mez353

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 06:16 AM by scoutsniper

reply to post by stirling

I posted this on another article here at ATS. "Ballistic advantage" is exactly "Key" to Military Combat Operations. Here is the "play pretty" I had built a few years ago. Many guys still have not heard about "Akley Improved" and yes, it does make a huge difference.

posted on 7-12-2010 @ 04:27 PM this post reply to post by snowman9364

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember the weight facor of the .50. add the weight of the equipment you need with you and the fact that you might encounter very steep terrain. .50 BMG, MacTac 50 usually requires "2" . guys (spotter/shooter) The Cheytec is almost as heavy as is the MacTac.50. Add two canteens of water, ammo, ALICE pack, poncho, food, medical supplies, communications equipment, map and compass etc. You will be carrying a good deal of weight. "Snap shooting" with the .408, 416 or .50 is also very difficult. One man could do the .338 Lapua depending on the mission, terrain and other features. I have posted this to two other guys. Building your own suited just to you is the way to go but can be very expensive. Here it is again. Good Luck

Scoutsniper

“Akley Improved” .300 WIN. MAG. CUSTOM

Barrel: Stainless Steel heat treated 30 inch “Lilja” heavy tapered 1-10 right hand twist free floating, 6 groove “buttoned” rifling, Gas checked “True” .308 CAL. with 19 degree crowned muzzle.
Receiver: Remington 700 Large bolt “tweaked” with Sako extractor.
Trigger: “Jewel Top Grade” .2 ounce pull.
Chamber: “Akley Improved” .300 Win. Mag. 40 degree shoulder slope.
Operation: Bolt, double lug locking.
Capacity: 4 rounds
Scope: 8X32X56 Night Force NXS, NPR-2 reticle 4 inch shade tube with Tenebraex ARD and Butler Creek covers
Pictinney Rail: “G Force Long Action” 20 MOA lift.
Scope Rings: Burris Signature “High Z” with 20 MOA inserts.
Stock: McMillan A-3 “Sniper Class”, glass bedded with adjustable Cheek Weld
Bi-Pod: Harris “S” series short. (Bench rest)
Sling: Mil Spec. Standard Tactical Adjustable.
Weight: 16.25 LBS.
Serial Number: XXXXXXX
Rate of Fire: One Shot, One Kill
Muzzle Velocity: 3056- 3060 FPS at 70 degrees Fahrenheit
Tactical Purpose: “Extreme” long range Sniping operations. This rifle supersedes any and all Military Specs for this caliber and class of weapon.
Maximum Effective Range: 1,950 yards using 210gr. Sierra BTHP Match King seated to .001 from LANs and grooves, 71.2 gr. of R-22, Nosler 5 star custom cases. Federal 215 Gold Medal Match Primers. 630 ft. ASL @ 70 degrees
Total Effectiveness: 1950 yards // 630 Ft. above sea level @ 70 degrees F. set at 32 X before going subsonic. 75MOA . 1600 yards // sea level at negative 10 degrees.
Energy at 1 mile: 1188 FPS, 658 FT. lbs(723lbs PSI). Come up to 59.5 MOA. Speed of sound @ sea level is 1082 fps.
Custom Rifle: Produced by Mr., XXXXXX“Master Gunsmith”
Overall Adjusted Price: $5,575.00 in 2006 $7,775 (2010)
Sniper Qualified: 09/09/2009. 3 shot .523 inch group at 400 yards on cross hairs of target. 7-9 mph ¾ value wind. Supported by bi-pod only. Witnessed: 8 signatures.
Total rounds fired: 660 total. Check at 5000 rounds.
Last Update: 11/2/2010

Build your own to suit your needs, provided you can afford it. It does get expensive but is well worth the time and money.

Scoutsniper

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:07 AM by scoutsniper

reply to post by projectvxn

You are correct again. Hiram Maxim (USA) invented the machine gun. The US Army didn't want it so Hiram sold it to the Brits, French and Turks and Germans. They produced their own versions. Brits had the "Vickers" The Germans produced the MG series (MG 34, MG 42 ) With the exception of the Germans, every one else "failed" to make their versions better, more reliable and lighter in weight. It is my opinion that the weapons made here in the USA are the best. Everyone has their own opinion. AK's, Druganovs ETc. AK accuracy is good to about maybe 250 or 300 yards. We enjoy making 6-8 inch "groups" with the AR-15 at 400 yards down at the "club" using Iron sights. AK is (7.62 X 39) M-14 (SOCOM) is (7.62 x 51) M-1 G is (7.62 x 63) and the .300 Win mag is (7.62 x 66). "Overwhelming Fire Power". USMC
The M-14 in my opinion has one of the best ratings due to the 20 round clip and the fire power and accuracy it delivers. It doesn't know that it was designed to be a carbine. I have hunted with the SOCOM II and it is really good in dense brush (shorter barrel length), water ways, steep terrain etc (weight). My M-1 gives the shooter about another 300 to 350 yards ballastic advantage over the M-14. The .300 Win Mag. Akley is designed for "other" operations of extreme long distance with the highest probability of a hit. Everybody has their "favorites". What are yours? Hand guns? Knives? NVG's? Comm. Gear? ETC?

Scoutsniper

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:09 AM by projectvxn

reply to post by aliengenes

Wow...Got it off your hands for 5 grand huh?

That's hefty, even for a Dragunov.

I will say this, of all the Russian weapons the Dragunov rifle is the best.
It is what the AK platform should be.

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:16 AM by projectvxn

reply to post by scoutsniper

I'm an AR platform guy myself.
It may not be a big round but I like being able to drive tacks at 400 meters with a 20" AR rifle using 5.56mm M855 steel core ammo, or M855A2 Tungsten core. You get your down range penetration + accuracy.

As far as long range weapons are concerned I like the Barret 99-The .416 is a great round created for a great long range weapon. But after a couple of rounds, even with that big ass muzzle brake, hurts like hell after a while-But still better than firing the .50 Beowulf or .50 BMG..But these aren't WW2 weapons(duh).

My favorite WW2 weapon is the Browning BAR...Badassery at it's most badass.

edit on 10-12-2010 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:24 AM by trailertrash

reply to post by JDBlack

I'm an old guy who carried an M1 Garand in basic training. It is designed for killing humans and is good at it. A good rifleman could use that weapon to good effect at several hundred yards and lore has it that shots up to one mile were made. This one might be BS. The reason a Garand would not be good for hunting is that is is gas operated. A portion of the explosive force returns via a small interior hole in the barrel and is used to eject the spent round out. cycle the next round into the chamber and cock the action. A small amount of muzzle velocity and power is sacrificed in this but the advantage is that one may rapid fire, not full automatic but at a fast semi-automatic rate, which is great in a fire fight. For hunting though we want maximum power so a bolt action is best.

The Garand was superior to the Mauser that the Germans carried because of it's discrete fire rate but it took a good soldier to know just the right way to keep it clean and thus dependable. They are being both reproduced and restored now. A decent restoration is priced at about $3,000.

If you want a very good rifle of an earlier period try for a 1903 Springfield. These were favored by snipers through ww2 and are still sought by collectors. That rifle was the best there was for a very long time. Bolt action of course and used the 1906 30 grain round; 30 ought six. (note: The US Army adopted this round as it's "standard" in 1906) If you put out the bucks for one of these you'll never regret it.

Kilroy was here and he had a Garand...

ps The post just above mine is correct about the BAR (Browning Auto Rifle). Two guys operated this one. I won't bore you with stories here but let me just say that very often a BAR crew was especially asked for for "clean ups". Want a hole punched in something? Ah yes..... memories.

edit on 10-12-2010 by trailertrash because: typo

edit on 10-12-2010 by trailertrash because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:33 AM by Robert Reynolds

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:38 AM by woogleuk

I've fired the Lee-Enfield No.8 on a number of occasions on the TA range, works well, single shot, but I think reloading adds to the fun

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 07:40 AM by thisguyrighthere

I've a few WWII-era firearms. All function well.

A couple of WWI firearms too. Still perfectly shoot-able though ammo is a bitch. It's hard to find and too expensive if you do find it.

We could have had a sea of Garands flood the market this year if the Obama administration had followed through with a promise to allow the selling back a couple hundred thousand of them from the South Koreans. Instead they reneged at the last minute. Ban by refusal to import. It's quite a topic of controversy in South Korea. At least it was until North Korea decided to blow their island up.

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 08:01 AM by scoutsniper

reply to post by projectvxn

Here is one you will put on your Christmas list. It is the same one that took out the Taliban at 1.5 miles by a Canadian sniper using US made rounds. WWII veterans and Korean War Vets, were known to "jimmy rig" a scope on their .50's to do a little "plinking".

mcmillanusa.com...
www.snipercountry.com...
Here is something else you might have an interest in:
bulletin.accurateshooter.com...
For "stealth" you might try this:
www.tac15.com...

Enjoy!

Scoutsniper

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 08:18 AM by projectvxn

reply to post by scoutsniper

Good god that's an expensive rifle.

10 grand...Geez I can buy an AR 50 for 2 grand. Or a select fire AK or AR for the same amount..

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 08:25 AM by Corrupted Data

I have no source, BUT!
I have heard of hundred-two hundred year muskets still in perfect working order.
I can say with 100% certainty that weapons from WWII are probably, if kept well, Still viable and effective weaponry.

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 08:29 AM by projectvxn

reply to post by Corrupted Data

There are muskets in existence today, all the way from the Revolutionary War, that are still perfectly functional. I would LOVE to own one..As you can imagine they are far harder to come by than ANY WW2 weapon..Unless you count reproductions...Which I don't.

There are many WW2 weapons who are not only viable today, but still effective in war(in my opinion).

edit on 10-12-2010 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 08:52 AM by aliengenes

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by aliengenes

Wow...Got it off your hands for 5 grand huh?

That's hefty, even for a Dragunov.

I will say this, of all the Russian weapons the Dragunov rifle is the best.
It is what the AK platform should be.

to be honest the only thing i liked about it was its look, and its trigger assembly.
oh and letting my idiot friends shoot it, because they would never listen and always cut a nice ring around their eye socket when they pulled the trigger. i always made sure to remove the rubber eye cup

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 08:55 AM by INQUISITION11

As a cadet 20 years ago our school armoury was full of 303 enfields and Bren Guns fantastic weapons .I remember running across the moors carrying the Bren feeling like my arms were going to fall off.They were replaced with SA80's.I presumed that the old guns would be scrapped, but they weren't they were sent to some 3rd world country to be used by their military apparently still useful.

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 09:55 AM by 46ACE

I have a .303 bolt action no1mk4 Enfield.This model has been issued all over the world by the British( and commonwealth country's up until the 50's I think). Itcostme$240.00. It holds10 rounds in the magazine. It is (pie plate) accurate at range; It is simple;and easy to maintain. it is fast to operate for a bolt; it is as reliable as a falling brick. I challenge anybody to stand in front of it( 174 grain fmj at 2475fps muzzle velocity right up there with the .308/30.06)..As I am not a "stormtrooper" it fills my need for a medium to long range rifle caliber defensive weapon..

.303 surplus ammo used to be cheap and plentiful; it has become less so in the last 5 years.Its a "real" wood and steel rifle not a "plastic fantastic". if I run out of ammunition I can beat you to death with it

IMHO yes they can fill a civilian "need": A modern sub-machine gun or carbine length assault rifle is better suited to "indoor building clearing". But I am not playing that video game.

edit on 10-12-2010 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 12:03 PM by scoutsniper

reply to post by projectvxn

One might say: "more bang for the buck". Hope you check out the post of custom built extreme accuracy long range rifles.Under the article: "Black Friday,what do u add to your gun collection" I left this post. Its only about $7,700.00 at todays rates. Here is that post. Something to think about should you be in a situation where you need your weapon to be a "part of you". An extension of your muscle memory, cheek weld, eye relief, hold, breath etc. Custom Made:

reply to post by snowman9364

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember the weight factor of the .50. Add the weight of the equipment you need with you and the fact that you might encounter very steep terrain. .50 BMG, MacTac 50 usually requires "2" . guys (spotter/shooter) The Cheytec is almost as heavy as is the MacTac.50. Add two canteens of water, ammo, ALICE pack, poncho, food, medical supplies, communications equipment, map and compass etc. You will be carrying a good deal of weight. "Snap shooting" with the .408, 416 or .50 is also very difficult. One man could do the .338 Lapua depending on the mission, terrain and other features. I have posted this to two other guys. Building your own suited just to you is the way to go but can be very expensive. Here it is again. Good Luck

Scoutsniper

“Akley Improved” .300 WIN. MAG. CUSTOM

Barrel: Stainless Steel heat treated 30 inch “Lilja” heavy tapered 1-10 right hand twist free floating, 6 groove “buttoned” rifling, Gas checked “True” .308 CAL. with 19 degree crowned muzzle.
Receiver: Remington 700 Large bolt “tweaked” with Sako extractor.
Trigger: “Jewel Top Grade” .2 ounce pull.
Chamber: “Akley Improved” .300 Win. Mag. 40 degree shoulder slope.
Operation: Bolt, double lug locking.
Capacity: 4 rounds
Scope: 8X32X56 Night Force NXS, NPR-2 reticle 4 inch shade tube with Tenebraex ARD and Butler Creek covers
Pictinney Rail: “G Force Long Action” 20 MOA lift.
Scope Rings: Burris Signature “High Z” with 20 MOA inserts.
Stock: McMillan A-3 “Sniper Class”, glass bedded with adjustable Cheek Weld
Bi-Pod: Harris “S” series short. (Bench rest)
Sling: Mil Spec. Standard Tactical Adjustable.
Weight: 16.25 LBS.
Serial Number: XXXXXXX
Rate of Fire: One Shot, One Kill
Muzzle Velocity: 3056- 3060 FPS at 70 degrees Fahrenheit
Tactical Purpose: “Extreme” long range Sniping operations. This rifle supersedes any and all Military Specs for this caliber and class of weapon.
Maximum Effective Range: 1,950 yards using 210gr. Sierra BTHP Match King seated to .001 from LANs and grooves, 71.2 gr. of R-22, Nosler 5 star custom cases. Federal 215 Gold Medal Match Primers. 630 ft. ASL @ 70 degrees
Total Effectiveness: 1950 yards // 630 Ft. above sea level @ 70 degrees F. set at 32 X before going subsonic. 75MOA . 1600 yards // sea level at negative 10 degrees.
Energy at 1 mile: 1188 FPS, 658 FT. lbs(723lbs PSI). Come up to 59.5 MOA. Speed of sound @ sea level is 1082 fps.
Custom Rifle: Produced by Mr., XXXXXX “Master Gunsmith”
Overall Adjusted Price: $5,575.00 in 2006 $7,775 (2010)
Sniper Qualified: 09/09/2009. 3 shot .523 inch group at 400 yards on cross hairs of target. 7-9 mph ¾ value wind. Supported by bi-pod only. Witnessed: 8 signatures.
Total rounds fired: 660 total. Check at 5000 rounds.
Last Update: 11/2/2010

The opportunity may only come once. Pick "yours" to suit you.

Hope this will help you out. Remember, ballistic advantage is critical.

Scoutsniper

reply posted on 10-12-2010 @ 12:15 PM by Magnum007

The Canadian Rangers in the North use 303 Le Enfields... I have some in my station that date back to 1942...

They still work and they still pack a punch! They are heavy though...

Magnum