The Milky Way - Welcome to your New Home Galaxy!

I remember reading that article about a year ago on viewzone. Truly crazy, but more than plausible.
I'm glad somebody finaly made a thread about this, we are the aliens here!

Must`nt forget also we will be part of the andromeda cluster in the future also,brilliant ,we really are made of stardust as long as one does`nt get to close too soon

Thanks Zorgon for a great post.

My first thoughts mirrored those of ETsubmariner, could this research provide a clue to the meaning of the many petroglyphs found around the globe. Many past civilizations at great geographical distances from each other have recorded the same types of designs, many of which have been reproduced in plasma experiments. The dates for many of these depictions are said to be in the region of 10 to 15 thousand years, this short timescale has caused many to doubt that our solar system could have been in such disarray so recently. I myself feel that many of these ancient recordings do tell of planetary bodies in close proximity, just not only those from our immediate neighbourhood.

Originally posted by Crayfish
Unless the debunking article can itself be debunked there is no reason to take the claims of the OP at face value any more than that of the debunker. The difference is that our accepted belief that we live near a normal star in the Milky Way is the simplest and most likely truth.

Actually, our current *thoery* that we are part of the Milky Way galaxy is just that: a theory. After all, how long have we scientifically "known" that we are (supposedly) part of the Milky Way galaxy? Just because we can see it in the sky as a band that stretches across the heavens doesn't prove that we are a part of it. I don't have hard data on how long we've been able to see the Milky Way, but in galactic time, even the life of our species has been but a few seconds. The main reason we think we're a part of the Milky Way is because it's up there in the sky visible to the naked eye. But, that doesn't prove we're a part of it.

The other galaxy is crossing the plane of the Milky Way at near 90 degrees and the Milky Way is absorbing it, casting stars aside and bringing them back. It would seem that BOTH THEORIES ARE EQUALLY VALID (we're a part of the Milky Way or Sag). Unfortunately for the Sag galaxy, we haven't known about it as long as we have the Milky Way.

Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is usually the best and the most accurate. That simply is not true in all cases. If Occam's Razor were to be applied to everything, then we wouldn't need detectives for criminal investigation. If it seems like the butcher killed someone, then well, the butcher did it! That doesn't hold water because the *real world* is more complex than that. Just because we've wondered about that milky path in our skies since we could see it doesn't necessarily mean that we are a part of it. We VERY WELL COULD BE a part of the Sagittarius galaxy that has been (is being) demolished and absorbed by the Milky Way. It's just that we didn't know about the "second" galaxy (Sag) until much more recently.

Either way, we exist in a star-crossed time.

Originally posted by Navieko
Great thread!

So if some of our neighboring planets are already feeling the effects, how far away are we?

We are feeling the effects. It's called "global warming". It's happening on Jupiter, Pluto, Mars, you name it.

Wouldn't it be funny if it was heat generated from the galactic collision that took us out of the ice age so long ago?

Very good information and nice pictures.

wow! this is huge!

We are the aliens to this galaxy, we are galatic aliens, i didnt think we would be galatic aliens till like thousands and thousands of years from now, but turns out we already were aliens.

I wonder if our galatic neighbours mind us? it is fasinating. I wonder what our neighbours are like, it is amazing though. I hope they either dont know we are here, or simply dont mind new neighbours.

Amazing find though, i wonder how the other earth like planets from OUR old home galaxy are doing, hope they are doing okay and not dead lol

I keep telling eveyone i come from Krypton. And the Legends talk of all kinds of things from other Places hehe very well done and thought provoking 4 sure thx.

Multiple stars and a flag for this thread, Zorgon.
The true beauty of this board beyond all else is the search for knowledge.
Threads like this educate me and a lot of the rest of us...
And for that I am genuinely grateful.
Keep up the good work!
It is appreciated!

Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by Crayfish
Unless the debunking article can itself be debunked there is no reason to take the claims of the OP at face value any more than that of the debunker. The difference is that our accepted belief that we live near a normal star in the Milky Way is the simplest and most likely truth.

Actually, our current *thoery* that we are part of the Milky Way galaxy is just that: a theory.

That's quite correct. The point is that it is a theory with a lot more evidence to support it than this theory invented by a single magazine based upon the coincidence that our sun happens to be close to where one of the streams from the Sag Dwarf galaxy crosses our own. If we are from the Sag Dwarf galaxy how did we end up orbiting the centre of the Milky Way at 220 km/s with only 6km/s motion in the direction of the stream of stars from the Sag Dwarf galaxy?

Originally posted by GhostLancer
Occam's Razor states that the simplest explanation is usually the best and the most accurate. That simply is not true in all cases. If Occam's Razor were to be applied to everything, then we wouldn't need detectives for criminal investigation.

This is exactly the point I'm making. Most people here taking the word of the attorney as fact and ignoring any detective work that has been done that criticises the case being presented. I don't know about you but I like to hear both sides of a story before making my mind up about something.

Occams razor does apply here, and it tells us that the Sun is a native of the Milky Way.

Originally posted by Crayfish
I don't know about you but I like to hear both sides of a story before making my mind up about something.

So do I but sometimes ONE side of a story is reported out of proportion to the other side. As in this case, judging by the response to the thread a lot of people have never heard this side of the story...

So if you consider yourself a true researcher and as you say 'like to hear both sides' before making up your mind, why do you push so hard for the other side being the only possible truth? Contradiction it seems to me

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as being self-evident". - Arthur Schopenhauer

Once again, it is pure theory that we are orbiting the Milky Way. Our solar system is currently moving almost perpendicular to the plane of the Milky Way.

The theory is that we oscillate around the Milky Way galaxy in a sinusoidal pattern, but the length of time for a single cycle is millions of years, and there is no proof that this happens, only a theory. . We might be a part of the Sagittarius Tidal Stream, and remain a part of it.

You debunkers need to throw up some links to back up your claims.

reply to post by zorgon


Thank u, thank u!! Ive been looking for this info. Was telling someone about this and they thought
I was nuts...bwaaha...

reply to post by zorgon


OK, this has taken off, while I took some breaks off.....I haven't digested the full OP yet, so sorry if this is made clear (or not) there:

This theory about OUR Sun possibly having accreted and evolved whilst part of a lesser galaxy, that later merged with the larger "milky way" that happened to be nearby....I HOPE that the impression hasn't been left in people's minds that this occurred sometime during the existence of HUMANS on this Earth....did it?

In other words, was it made quite clear that any such event would have happened hundreds of millions, to billions of years ago....maybe even before there was anything other than single-celled, or very basic multi-cellular lifeforms on this planet?

I'm comparing to the trending theory, of the possibility of future "mergings" in store for this Galaxy,and Andromeda....in about, ohhhhh.....3 Billion years hence......just to put a timescale perspective on it.

So that people can (hopefully) remember to think outside the Human lifespan paradigm, and try to wrap their minds around the incredible astronomical timescales involved, instead......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, this statement jumped out at me, could you clarify (to see if I am interpreting you correctly)?:

Scientists have always wondered why the Milky Way is at an angle to us... until now.

What "angle" do you mean? Reason to ask is, it appears, by this sentence, that you are under the impression that our Solar System's plane of orbital rotation should be roughly parallel to the overall Galactic arrangement, and "plane", based on bisecting it through an imaginary and theoretical 'middle", with an equally theoretical central "axis" at a ninety-degree angle, to that plane.

Am I to infer this is your assertion? That, because our Solar System's plane is angled to that of the "Greater Galactic Plane" ( I just coined that... ), that is evidence of our "foreignness"? Because, for that to remain a valid assumption, would require that ALL Milky Way "native" planetary systems are all 'parallel' to the "GGP".

I would like to point out something I mentioned in another thread, when referring to this one --- astronomers are finding some extra-solar planets by observing the effects they have on their host stars....a detectable "wobble"...but, this can only be seen when the orbital plane of this other star system is "edge on" from our point-of-view. I mistakenly said "parallel" in the other thread, which isn't entirely correct....it could be rotated around a full 360-degree compass, it is the "edge on" quality that distinguishes it, for that sort of observation techniques.

It just seems logical, to me, that since there really is no "up" or "down" in space (they are arbitrary constructs, for our convenience, especially when mapping), that orbits of any star system can be oriented in virtually infinite ways....an axis of rotation that can be imagined to trace out a spherical shape, as you re-position it (in a mind experiment, to aid in visualization).....Hope this makes sense.

Wonderful topic, and one I wish I had a day to contribute and read comments thoughtfully. Great work by the OP and the recent information, although tenuous in our exact understanding due to SAG Deg being discovered in 1994, is the reality we now see that we are in a relationship with an interloper galaxy.

I did a lot of illustration for different astronomy orgs and publications before the discovery was confirmed and accepted, so all my work eventually became obsolete, which is a good thing. It shows our understanding and observational is evolving.

Below is an illustration of our local group with delineated distances. We did not see SagDEG behind the Sagittarius stellar density of our galactic core, and still cannot see it clearly due to this, so it is not in this illustration, but would be like the Magellanic clouds, (LMC SMC), but closer, smaller and more diffuse. The arms so diffuse you can only see remnants in star density imaging from our location.



You can see how larger galactic structures attract smaller ones in this. SagDEG has been absorbed mostly, but has been orbiting the Milky Way for many orbits, It's closest at about 50,00 LY from SagA, the center of our galactic Core.

It is hard then to speculate on and if our particular stellar cluster was from SagDEG originally. Such an event would be hundreds of millions of years past, and long since become a "naturalized" citizen of the milky way.

Ancient Sanskrit texts in India, largely found to be accurate in its numbers, volumes and distances thousands of years before modern astronomy, tell of our solar systems orbit of the core several times.



Called the "Yugas", they outline ages of our planetary life in many hundreds of thousands of years, and tell us also of an eccentricity where in our Aphelion and Perihelion, or closest and furthest point to the center, we experience a different awareness. Orbital eccentricity is the off center point of orbit also.



Apsides 1) Apoapsis; 2) Periapsis; 3) Focus

We are in the Kali Yuga, the apsis, or the point of greatest distance of the foci of the elliptical orbit. We are moving in to the Dwapara Yuga, inbound and now getting closer. Point being, if the record from ancients predating our current cycle of civilization on this planet is accurate, we might be original, and not from SagDEG. The Hopi say we are 4th world moving to 5th. Maybe they have the records deep in their sacred repository to back this up too?

As far as our position on a theoretical plane of the galaxy, we are always moving away and towards and pass up and over, under and up the plain every few thousand years. In this illustration we can see how we would look if our planetary track was lit as we oscillate in our orbit. Notice the very slight curve of the sun? That would be the oscillatory point weaving up and down along the orbit.



Everything is a sine wave. Amplitude and frequency determining by the mass and speed and relationship to the larger mass. In this case the Milky Way core. This might show in visual terms how all objects move in a stationary relationship to each other while also being influenced by other nearby masses and solar and other particle space winds, gases and forms of space "friction". All effects all.

I would like to illustrate and animate in 3D the SagDEG interloping event to current and project forward. I wish someone would give me a grant to do that. You can do that on small systems now. No super Cray is needed.

The stretched arms of a galaxy being ripped by larger galaxies when exposed, are called Rat Tail galaxies. In this illustration, you can see some galaxies arms being ripped and stretched, then absorbed into the larger galaxies. Timothy Ferris has a great picture book called Galaxies, that explains and shows how that dynamic effect works. We get very interesting galactic formations from such events.



It is a common event in galactic evolution. Galaxies attract, then absorb, or can actually decimate one another completely, like a car wreck, throwing fractions and gravitationally cohesive strings of debris millions of light years from an event. Flung into the intergalactic abyss. The LMC and SMC might be stabilized crumbs left over from other impacts or just smaller attracted entities to the Milky Way.

The Andromeda Galaxy, thought to have been the biggest in our local group, is now thought to be smaller than our Milky Way, and is moving towards us and will impact us in 3-4 billion years.

Science has waffled about such events, saying that component distribution of one galaxy and another are so far apart that nothing will touch as they pass through one another. Others then said otherwise, and again back to the dispersion being too great. OK in theory, but it is misleading because there are gravitational and other fields that will impact as well. Collisions of stars and planets are not out of the realm of possibility. We have observed as much in other galactic events. Even core impacts. THAT would be a show of shows. Remote view that however if you know whats good for you.

Thanks again to the OP. I eat this stuff for lunch

ZG

reply to post by ZeroGhost


Great to have someone here who really knows this stuff. Thanks for posting.

How certain are we that our solar system orbits the milky way galactic core?

Wouldn't the time interval for a single cycle be millions of years?

It seems to me that this would only be a theory, and could be wrong.

reply to post by zorgon

Wow! Four pages of "Kudos" YAY! with no real context that I had to sift through to try and find one particular question that only one member seemed to ask, Loose Change. Good question yet it went unanswered.

Here it is for those that missed it,

Origianlly posted by Loose Change
Do you have any other sources that claims this is indeed factual, instead of conjecture?

I ended up sifting through a few more pages until I gave up looking for an answer to this question. I would also like to ask this question, I mean your whole theory is relying on this to be true. I have also been following this theory and I don't particularly like Bad Astronomy's debunking attitude but I would like to know some facts on this subject if you have any.

Other than the fact that there is a galaxy, Sagittarius, being consumed by the Milky Way and that our solar plane is tilted by 60° to the Galactic plane (actually it's 120° but oh well) is there anything linking us to Sagittarius?

I believe there was some discussion about the contents of our star in comparison to those from the Sagittarius galaxy and the Milky Way but that seems to be ambiguous at best.
Here are some questions to consider.

• Where was our solar systems point of origin into the Milky Way and departure form Sagittarius?
  
• What are the respective angles of said point of origin to our solar system and both galaxies?
  
• How long ago did we depart from Sagittarius?
  
• Do we have any old neighbors among us now?

Originally posted by CrayfishThat's quite correct. The point is that it is a theory with a lot more evidence to support it than this theory invented by a single magazine based upon the coincidence that our sun happens to be close to where one of the streams from the Sag Dwarf galaxy crosses our own. If we are from the Sag Dwarf galaxy how did we end up orbiting the centre of the Milky Way at 220 km/s with only 6km/s motion in the direction of the stream of stars from the Sag Dwarf galaxy?

Actually, there is *not* "a lot more evidence." We only *believe* and *theorize* we are a part of the Milky Way because we've seen it with our own eyes for so long. We couldn't see the Sag galaxy because it has been dispersed for so long, and visually is not as large and dynamic as the Milky Way. We only *believe* we are part of the Milky Way because THAT IS WHAT YOU AND I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT. If we'd been taught we were part of the Sag galaxy from youth, you might be arguing that we are not part of the Milky Way. We all need to think outside of CONDITIONING these days. Open minds are dangerous, and are therefore commonly discouraged in modern society.

Originally posted by CrayfishThis is exactly the point I'm making. Most people here taking the word of the attorney as fact and ignoring any detective work that has been done that criticises the case being presented.

You're wrapping things around and manipulating words to seem to agree, yet make a 180 degree different point. People here on ATS tend to have open minds. You are sticking to scientific dogma without giving the new viewpoint its due consideration. But, hey, that's your right. Opinions... Everyone has one. Personally, I think that the evidence presented was well done and valid. In fact, the reason(s) this theory has not hit mainstream evoke thoughts of suppression. If you know anything about the modern scientific community, then you know that scientists who venture outside "accepted" avenues of research lose their grants and backing. Going down such routes is usually a career ender (or at least a souring of a professional career).

Originally posted by CrayfishI don't know about you but I like to hear both sides of a story before making my mind up about something. Occams razor does apply here, and it tells us that the Sun is a native of the Milky Way.

That goes against the example that was given. Occam's Razor doesn't apply in many criminal investigations because THE SIMPLEST, MOST OBVIOUS ANSWER IS NOT NECESSARILY THE RESOLUTION TO THE MYSTERY/CRIME. Just because the butcher has a knife, knows how to kill... doesn't mean that he killed the lady in the alley. There are so many other factors that can change a "simple" scenario. With all due respect, you seem to be using Occam's Razor as a SHORTCUT TO THINKING. What you may not realize is that you are so attached to "being a part of the Milky Way galaxy" because it's all you've ever known. It's what was ingrained into your since childhood. It's difficult to face truths and realities that contradict what we were conditioned to believe as "the truth." It's like, I imagine, discovering that your father is not your biological father after 14 years of life. It's hard. It turns your world upside down. We humans abhore change. New knowledge is change. Occam's Razor seems to be a "scientific" excuse for people to give up trying to find the real reasons behind anomalies. It says, essentially, the simplest answer is true. For mundane things, yes, this applies. For true puzzles, thought, like a criminal investigation, it falls apart. If a simple criminal investigation in our modern age of human civilization can defeat Occam's Razor, then I would imagine a billion-year struggle between galaxies might completely nullify it --or close to completely. If our world is so complex as to challenge Occam's Razor, then the complete enormity and chaotic nature of GALAXIES should do the trick.

I remember a thread about this a couple years ago on ATS.... it seems everything is getting recycled lately?