The Milky Way - Welcome to your New Home Galaxy!

Originally posted by imitator
I remember a thread about this a couple years ago on ATS.... it seems everything is getting recycled lately?

Do you have a link to that thread? It would be interesting to see how the information is similar, and also how it differs....

i think this guy has a good point

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by ZeroGhost

 

Great to have someone here who really knows this stuff. Thanks for posting.

How certain are we that our solar system orbits the milky way galactic core?

Wouldn't the time interval for a single cycle be millions of years?

It seems to me that this would only be a theory, and could be wrong.

My information is likely somewhat dated now, but thanks.

We are pretty sure we orbit the core.

According to the Yugas, a Galactic Year is 4,320,000 (4 million 332 thousand) years, but astronomers say It takes the Solar System about 225–250 million years to complete one orbit of the galaxy. We'll have to work that out.

We are thought to have completed 20–25 orbits during the lifetime of the Sun and 1/1250 of a orbit since the humans evolved. How they determine that is a story I don't yet know, but there are some amazing ways they can get that information.

ZG

wow that is very interesting, maybe its the reason why i dream of a place i used to be in a past life, and feel that i am not from here

I saw this theory several years ago also and myself was a bit duped, though I never really broke down the supporting data (hypotheses) of the claims. Bad Astronomy's Phil Plait took the time to find the flaws though, and outlines compelling data to show we are in fact native to the Milky Way, and just happen to be crossing where Sagittarius intersects.

As far as scientist's ability to calculate celestial distances and speed, it's due to our detection methods of the elements in motion through their red shift signatures using data from outside of our galaxy. I find it more confusing on how they can determine our own galactic makeup, since even since the dawn of communications man's signature has only reached out a mere 80-some light years of distance away from our sun. Not very far comparatively.

wouldnt everything have collided

reply to post by SheScreamsMyName

It would be like smoke colliding with air, it all just mixes up and swirls around.

reply to post by SheScreamsMyName


Distances between the stars are very great still, however stars can and do collide, and some come close enough in proximity to others they create binary star systems. There are even star systems with more than two stars in locked gravitational pulls.

When you look at the entire Milky Way you are looking at a distance of 100,000 light years, and like I mentioned before, since the dawn of radio communications our signature has only traveled some 80 light years from us. A very small dome in the Galaxy.

reply to post by Illustronic

I did the same thing, read the theory and then read Bad Astronomy's take on it some time ago. I was never impressed by Phil Plait's arrogance nor do I enjoy the way they try to "debunk" things. Overall I am unconvinced either way. Is it natural for solar obliquities to align with the galactic plane or would they be random? What we need is a stellar map of known solar obliquities (axial rotations).

Here is one I found pertaining to HR 8799.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fe7c0c347c0c.jpg[/atsimg]
Source gemini.edu

Recently it has been discovered that four planets orbit this star in a counter-clockwise rotation so we are looking at its north pole. Notice the angles of HR 8799, on the lower left, and our system, middle, to that of the Milky Way in the background. There is a thread on this here, Astronomers Discover, Image New Planet in Planetary System Very Similar to Our Own,.

The question I would like to have answered is what evidence do we have the our system might be from Sagittarius? This should be the start of this discussion don't you think? Otherwise this is old news with no new evidence either way.

reply to post by ZeroGhost


I think I have a decent idea of how they develop these concepts, I just think most people believe we know more than we actually do.

Basically, they would have to establish that the movement of our solar system follows a curve that suggests we orbit the Milky Way in a sinusoidal pattern. From what I have found on the subject, the period for one cycle is

with a period of 52 to 74 million years and an amplitude of ~49 to 93 pc out of the galactic plane.

www.astro.ncu.edu.tw...

I just don't think we have been observing outer-space with precision instruments long enough to measure a long enough arc to determine if we are moving in such a cyclic pattern. Half a cycle is 25 to 35 million years, and we have got maybe 50 years of solid precision measurements. That is a microscopic slice.

I wonder if there is far more between galaxies than realize.

Anyway, that is a pretty decent link above.

reply to post by Devino


Nice photo, too bad there isn't a link to go with it, to where it originated.

I am guessing that our solar system moves frisbee like through space. If that picture is accurate, and that is how we move through space, maybe the tilt of Neptune's orbit is due to its orbit changing more slowly to the angle of the plane of Milky way than the inner planets.

It seems a more accurate way to determine if we are or were a part of the Sagittarius Tidal Stream is to compare the angle that we cross the Galactic plane with that of the Sagittarius Tidal Stream. I suspect we don't quite have enough information yet to quantify this.

reply to post by poet1b

I just don't think we have been observing outer-space with precision instruments long enough to measure a long enough arc to determine if we are moving in such a cyclic pattern. Half a cycle is 25 to 35 million years, and we have got maybe 50 years of solid precision measurements.

This is not necessarily true. Civilizations around the world have been measuring precession of the equinox for thousand of years at least. An accurate measurement can easily be done with simple tools. The origin of our current geographical measure, time and coordinate system dates beyond recorded history. We use a sexagesimal system to measure both time a space. 60 minutes/seconds of time and arc, 12 hours on a circular clock, 360° in a circle and so on.

If you consider that there are 2.7 oscillations per rotation of 225 million years that would make one wave length 83.33 million years long. Half a wave would be from galactic plane and back which would take 41.66 million years so an amplitude height would take around 21 million years.

Now divide the time it takes to make one galactic rotation (assuming it is 225 million years) into 360° which is 625,000 years per degree, 10,416 years per minute of arc and 173.6 years per second of arc. I think from this we can infer a good understanding of where we are heading.


reply to post by poet1b

Yeah, I forgot to add a link to that image. I fixed that.
There is a lot more to our motions within our galaxy than us going up and down and around the center. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to figure out if we are rotating with the rest of the Milky Way. As far as what direction we are heading, look up facing north and that is the direction we are heading while we rotate around the center of the Milky Way.

reply to post by ZeroGhost


Waveform universe does seem to fit the picture and very interesting observation.Seems the universe functions as invisible equatorial planes,or like disjointed cogs that merge at various timescales and locations forming for instance the rings of saturn and galaxy formation and it is this unravelling interweiving structure of gravity sharing itself that concludes my analogy.So in theory the universe,even multiverse is a large disjointed ,disfigured clockwork sharing degrees of gravity,gears within gears.Infact if everything was`nt waved then all forces would be united and nothing would exist,this does happen or needs to be proved so to speak and creates the rings of saturn,galaxies Etc M theory is a googd candidate.

Infact once the L.I.S.A project successfully demonstrates this along with the Boson in the LHc we will finally get conclusion on this unusual interweiving of strings within a M brane multiverse,in short waveformed fields corkscrewing past each other in opposite directions and with varying force,if this force was not seperated much like our own DNA then nothing would exist.gravity and electromagnetic forces would converge and momentarily nothing.this is currently why the universe we live in is disc elongated and rings form around plasnetoids,Black holes are convergance of extreme electromagnetic movement imploding to what seems like infinity,and are inverse of a galaxy.Complicated it all is but M theory really will explain alot Soon.we are all starpeople

reply to post by zorgon


truly outstanding read zorgan,such attention to detail.
being also Sagittarious (9th) it fits nicely.
good to be back online (laptop trouble!)
do have s&f

Originally posted by Devino
I ended up sifting through a few more pages until I gave up looking for an answer to this question. I would also like to ask this question, I mean your whole theory is relying on this to be true. I have also been following this theory and I don't particularly like Bad Astronomy's debunking attitude but I would like to know some facts on this subject if you have any.

Well simply put, its a THEORY and as such there is no absolute proof yet. Since we only discovered Sagitarrius in 1994 even the scientists don't have all the answers yet. A few years ago I read papers on this... as have others who joined this thread said that they recall papers on this theory. The guy on the website I quoted did not make it up... he also read it somewhere

All the EVIDENCE I have been finding is presented here in this thread. I and others are looking for those original papers and trust me as they turn up I will post them. Takes time though and the purpose of the thread is to get the word out so others can help in the effort. I don't do this as a full time job ya know

As to Bad Astronomy... he is just another guy with an opinion.. selling books and speaking tours to push his side of the story. In fact he won't even let you debate it. I tried once at the request of someone here over a guy who claimed he was a shuttle astronaut. I had the true facts, but was not even allowed to post as he screens all his posters. So much for freedom of expression. I have no use for Bad Astronomy. Here at ATS we look at ALTERNATIVE theories... I am not here to promote the 'official' version

Here are some questions to consider.

• Where was our solar systems point of origin into the Milky Way and departure form Sagittarius?
  
• What are the respective angles of said point of origin to our solar system and both galaxies?
  
• How long ago did we depart from Sagittarius?
  
• Do we have any old neighbors among us now?

Great questions I don't have the answers to those yet... As Weedwacker pointed out this didn't happen over night... and we only recently discovered this... so expecting answers like that is a little ambitious isn't it? But as I get time over the holidays I will send out some mail and see if I can get the papers and opinions of some of those doing the real research

Originally posted by GhostLancer
Do you have a link to that thread? It would be interesting to see how the information is similar, and also how it differs....

Found them..
Dan Eden/Gary Vey Sagittarius Galaxy Theories,
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nothing much there, only the same link to Viewzone... never got off page one

The second one..

Earth is actually part of the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

A few links but still only a one pager

Earth part of a galaxy which is being consumed by the Milky Way. Read On...
www.rediff.com...

But here is the original article from 2003 that everyone has been quoting from

New Map of the Milky Way Shows Our Galaxy to be a Cannibal

Source: University of Virginia
Posted Wednesday, September 24, 2003

Study Shows the Milky Way is Out to Lunch

Chicken Little was right. The sky is falling.

Thousands of stars stripped from the nearby Sagittarius dwarf galaxy are streaming through our vicinity of the Milky Way galaxy, according to a new view of the local universe constructed by a team of astronomers from the University of Virginia and the University of Massachusetts.

The study, to be published in the Dec. 20 issue of the Astrophysical Journal, is the first to map the full extent of the Sagittarius galaxy and show in visually vivid detail how its debris wraps around and passes through our Milky Way. Sagittarius is 10,000 times smaller in mass than the Milky Way, so it is getting stretched out, torn apart and gobbled up by the bigger Milky Way.

"It's clear who's the bully in the interaction," said Steven Majewski, U.Va. professor of astronomy and lead author on the paper describing the results.

"Astronomers used to view galaxy formation as an event that happened in the distant past," noted David Spergel, a professor of astrophysics at Princeton University after viewing the new finding. "These observations reinforce the idea that galaxy formation is not an event, but an ongoing process."

Here we go... that core looks awfully close to us



Animation

www.astro.virginia.edu...

On the other hand, Majewski and his colleagues have been surprised by the Earth's proximity to a portion of the Sagittarius debris. "For only a few percent of its 240 million-year orbit around the Milky Way galaxy does our Solar System pass through the path of Sagittarius debris," Majewski said. "Remarkably, stars from Sagittarius are now raining down onto our present position in the Milky Way. Stars from an alien galaxy are relatively near us. We have to re-think our assumptions about the Milky Way galaxy to account for this contamination."

So it is indeed a fact that we ARE in the debris stream of Sagittarius

Above excerts from;
www.spaceref.com...

Original source... University of Virginia

They now publish a disclaimer on their page...

This web page contains the original press release text from 2003(!) that has been corrupted/misinterpreted to "support" the incorrect conclusion that the Sun did not originate in the Milky Way galaxy. Read carefully and you will see this press release only details the characteristics of the Sagittarius galaxy and nothing more. All astrophysical evidence points confidently and indisputably to the fact the Sun is now and has always been a part of the Milky Way.

And then point to Bad Astronomy "DOES A REASONABLE JOB OF ADDRESSING THE MISINFORMATION BEING CIRCULATED."

www.astro.virginia.edu...

Originally posted by ZeroGhost
We are pretty sure we orbit the core.

'Pretty sure' But your forgetting one key point here

Does not the streamer of Sagittarius also orbit with the core? Not sure if we can track that... if the pull of the Milky Way has already added the Streamer to its own rotation... but since the event is nearing i'ts end I would imagine it's likely that the streamer is now also caught in the Milky Way's rotation

Oh wait... according to the University of Virginia's animation

IT DOES

www.astro.virginia.edu...

so many galaxies and so little time, I wonder if hmanity will ever know what is really out there

bravo, i recognise when someone spend a lot of time and effort in order to "concentrate" some data. nice work, you know to do the homework,

i wonder also why here in A&U forum:

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by PuterMan
Why in Aliens & UFOs? This belongs in a scientific forum or in Fragile Earth. I think the mods should move it as it definitely does not belong in this forum.

Because it was late and I hit the wrong button

Seems the mistake is in fact a lucky one, since A&U is maybe one of those with good traffic, and that is good for your own site, Pegasus, no? Also, ATS could benefit for the traffic from your site, since moderators are not in hurry to move it in the appropiate forum...
you've done well your homework.