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What is a Christian?

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posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 


ti, what do you make of these?

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.-Acts15

touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.-Phil3

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.-Rom3

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.-Gal3

now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets-Rom3

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son-Heb1

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.-1John3

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels-Col2
edit on 25-12-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Joecroft
 


But does one need to accept Jesus in the trinitarian sense to be a Christian?

I mean, I'm a dude that thinks Jesus said some pretty damn good things and was an overall brilliant speaker for his time (if he existed, which I'm actually skeptical about, but for the sake of argument I'll give that a miss and speak as if it were proven because that is not the sake of this thread and please do not respond to this off-hand statement because it is not meant to be anything more than an off-hand statement)...anyway, my aside notwithstanding, Jesus was a generally cool dude, especially for someone living in that region in the first century.

Does this make me a Christian?


I dont know. What makes people Christians? Believing in Jesus as a figure or believing in he's moral speeches?

Personally i don't think the Christians even know. To me it seams like if you want to be a christian, you have to fallow traditions, rituals and read the Bible. To me it seams like they have missed the whole point Jesus tried to tell us.

The christian church is a sleep. Because the Christians who maintain the church is a sleep. They fell a sleep when Jesus died. And when Jesus walked among them they where all lost. We didn't understand Jesus when he walked among us. What makes people think we understand Jesus better now?


edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
There is one more thing that just came to mind, worth sharing I think.

There is always an inevitable, and inescapable attachment to an outcome, as I mentioned - between what is and what ought to be (and as we know there's a LOT of room still for improvement in every sphere of human activity). Even in the space of nothing at all, there is still something to DO, something creative, fun, loving and joyful and happy (what are we to do, nothing at all?), or, even something requiring the ability to help carry the suffering of others, including our own suffering - a reason or a purpose, in other words, as an inevitability.

This is another reason why I'm a Christian - to have an object of devotion, and a worthwhile attachment in this regard, where the student can never be as great as the master.

So it's also a model of authentic leadership, not just appropriate gratitude (worship), and at some point I would imagine Jesus would like to say to the Jesus worshippers and thankers - ENOUGH! I don't need that, just love as I love you, get out there, get going, DO SOMETHING! I've heard all these prayers and thanks and songs already, it's getting BORING - who among you will create something new in the world worthy of me, and who will ask for my help to realize the object of my love and help to bring heaven to earth?


This issue, or element (a better term) of an inevitable attachment to an outcome, an object of devotion, and a realm or domain of eternal love and freedom, within the framework of a monistic lidealism (consciousness, not matter, is primary) - is then available and accessible, like some sort of tow rope from heaven (via the Great Work of Jesus Christ), and may be summed up as the apex of a metaphysical reality, in the saying

"I am the first and the last, the alpha and the omega".

I wonder where that is in the book of Revelations (will have to go see, hopefully, after all the death and destruction stuff..).


edit on 25-12-2010 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[c] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits[d] thick.[e] 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[f] 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

----

Pearls in formation, that's what we are, and this book, the whole Bible, is the story, of us, of "we" the human being, and it's frame won't lose integrity, therefore, these things are happening even now among us. Get used to it, and no, we don't read it all literally!

edit on 25-12-2010 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 
Rustami,

My obedience is freely given to the One I love supremely without any desire to do otherwise. It does not burden me in no way but He makes me totally free. That is what it means to me to be a free man in Him. How could I do otherwise when He is dwelling in me. His way is my way. I rest under His Wings and have peace and tranquility. They can snuff out the life of this old body of which I need a new one but they can't take the eternal life from me. It is my Love for him that fulfills the law that no longer binds me. Obedience is the way of love. That is how any are overcomers.

Truthiron.



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by truthiron
 



fulfills the law that no longer binds me


alright fair enough, the reason asked has to do with what you meant by "commandments" along with another thread also that we had exchanged in that had left me wondering what your thoughts were regarding the differences between Moses and Jesus or the old and new covenant
edit on 25-12-2010 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2010 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 




Originally posted by Madnessinmysoul
But does one need to accept Jesus in the trinitarian sense to be a Christian?


Well, I have debated on a few other threads as to the reasons why I personally don’t accept the Trinitarian Doctrine. I am aware, that there are at least two Christians on this thread, who are non-Trinitarian, and there are also two others, who are Trinitarians, but I see both groups as Christians; I’ll try to explain why I see it that way.

For me, it’s important to go with what Jesus is saying first, and on what man is saying second. Jesus actually tells us in the bible what it means to believe in him, and that it means to believe in the one who sent him i.e. God.

Now whether you believe Jesus is God, or whether you believe he is the “Son of God”, with God speaking through him, is really for each person to try and decide for him or herself individually.

How I currently view this, is that both non-Trinitarians and Trinitarians, both recognize that God/Father speaks through Jesus; this is universally true, for both groups.



Originally posted by Madnessinmysoul
I mean, I'm a dude that thinks Jesus said some pretty damn good things and was an overall brilliant speaker for his time (if he existed, which I'm actually skeptical about, but for the sake of argument I'll give that a miss and speak as if it were proven because that is not the sake of this thread and please do not respond to this off-hand statement because it is not meant to be anything more than an off-hand statement)...anyway, my aside notwithstanding, Jesus was a generally cool dude, especially for someone living in that region in the first century.

Does this make me a Christian?


I would say no, it doesn’t make you a Christian. The reason I say that, is because firstly, you don’t believe in God and secondly, you’re not even sure if Jesus existed.

The first reason is the most important, because like I said above, to believe in Jesus, is to believe that Gods voice can be heard through him, and that he was sent, on Gods behalf. There are other aspects to believing in Jesus, but IMO those two, are the most important.


- JC

edit on 25-12-2010 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-12-2010 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 01:05 AM
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How utterly pontifical. In full?

Pontificality is, for many, the point. Not for me, though I admit to having laid myself open to attacks by nitpickers. What I meant was--accepts its provisions in full. No matter what the worshipper means when he says 'one holy Church'.


I can see that contrary to what mere historians think, there were no Christians before 381, when the "Nicene" Creed was finished in Constantinople.

How clever of you to introduce a historical dimension that no-one was attending to, or implying!


Christianity... is a matter of consensus among those who adopt a certain self-description.

I believe that was my point.


Creeds are useful for group definition, but not necessarily in some simple way.

When two groups with different self-descriptions call themselves the same thing, complications do indeed arise. Thus the importance of constitutions. The Creed is the Christian constitution.


Mohammed, on the other hand, taught contrary to the Creed (no death by crucifixion, for example), and never claimed to accept any part of it.

Again, that was my point. Thank you for seconding it.


And two things to take to heart.

...at this Christmastide, O beloved...



People's religious self-descriptions deserve deference, because it is a very personal matter.

Self-description and self-delusion are often one and the same.


Under no circumstance does an atheist get to say who is and isn't a Christian.

Tell that to the Chinese government.



edit on 26/12/10 by Astyanax because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 




Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?


That is a very good question. And it is a doctrinal issue that every christian should thoroughly examine, especially the historical aspect of it.
What is interesting since ATS deals with conspiracy, they once did a survey on the top conspiracies note #20



I am not letting these old, long dead guys decide it for me, I will read the bible and decide it for myself. After all a meeting that is so controversial, makes us question any doctrine formulated then, and rolled to the masses, Really they must be reevaluated.

Acts 17:11 Still applies to every Christian of every denomination today.

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 10:52 AM
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You are asking a question that really has no set answer. A Christian is a "follower of Christ"and a believer in the Holy Bible. We have a hope within us that makes no sense to a "unchristian" and an understanding of God's master plan.

I really don't care about all the other questions you asked. Because you missed the mose imporant one. It doesn't matter what you think. Everything is going according to the Lord's Plan for our salvation and mankind.

The Lord said to love him with all my heart, soul, mind and body and to love my brother as myself. A true Christian has a heart's desire to win others to God and that is truly our job to be His "priests" here on earth to help others find him for their salvation.

Peace and grace to you,


Grandma



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by Grandma
 


I actually haven't missed the point, I was pointing out doctrinal disputes. You in fact pointed out a doctrinal belief, Arminianism with the following statement:


A true Christian has a heart's desire to win others to God and that is truly our job to be His "priests" here on earth to help others find him for their salvation.


You are then opposed to the doctrinal views of salvation referred to as Universalism and Calvinism.

According to an Universalism there would be no point in winning people to God because God wishes everyone to have salvation and thus his indomitable will shall be done for all souls, while Calvinists think that only those who are 'elect' are going to find salvation.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


That was an interesting poll. What's also interesting is the passage you quoted from Acts. It refers to scriptures being referenced...but which scriptures are they talking about?

We know that the writings of Paul are the oldest things found in the Bible, predating the Gospels. So what were they referencing to see if Paul was preaching the truth? Acts was probably written in the early part of the 0060's, so this is actually a bit confusing. Was there a mistake made in Acts? Are there lost documents? What's the deal?



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Grandma
 


I actually haven't missed the point, I was pointing out doctrinal disputes. You in fact pointed out a doctrinal belief, Arminianism with the following statement:


A true Christian has a heart's desire to win others to God and that is truly our job to be His "priests" here on earth to help others find him for their salvation.


You are then opposed to the doctrinal views of salvation referred to as Universalism and Calvinism.

According to an Universalism there would be no point in winning people to God because God wishes everyone to have salvation and thus his indomitable will shall be done for all souls, while Calvinists think that only those who are 'elect' are going to find salvation.


And the truly sad thing is both sides are correct in what they assert, and wrong in what they deny. Some of us Christians are in the middle of the two arguments.




posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


That was an interesting poll. What's also interesting is the passage you quoted from Acts. It refers to scriptures being referenced...but which scriptures are they talking about?


The Septuagint. At the time the only scriptures that could have been discussed were the OT canon. The letters of the apostles were circulated at the times, but were not added to the bible until later than when Luke wrote Acts.


We know that the writings of Paul are the oldest things found in the Bible, predating the Gospels. So what were they referencing to see if Paul was preaching the truth? Acts was probably written in the early part of the 0060's, so this is actually a bit confusing. Was there a mistake made in Acts? Are there lost documents? What's the deal?


The OT.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Ah, ok. I must have had a brain fart...twas odd that I didn't figure that out. Huh. Anyway, that was my mistake.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well, it is true that all three viewpoints have scriptural backing. Though it does seem that there are slightly more in favor of Universalism.

...poop, I have to go get ready for a party. I hope this goes on without me. I'm getting a better understanding of the Christian mindset with this thread.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 11:56 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 




Acts 17:11 Still applies to every Christian of every denomination today.


Which is in harmony with what 1 John 4:1 is telling us.
edit on 26-12-2010 by bijouramov because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 




So what were they referencing to see if Paul was preaching the truth?



The OT prophecies.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by Rustami
 
Rustami,

The commandments our Lord speaks of, His law of love. When we really do love Him with all our hearts and soul they are fulfilled. I am with Paul on this Rom. 8:5 on. Some fault Paul but I have no problem with him. You probably agree with Rom 8:5 on I believe. Love is the better way and then it is natural to please Him.

He has made the way so easy and non binding that none have any reason to refuse it. He bids us "come and follow me". Mat 19:21. Not the way of the world. To those of the world His Way is too strait and narrow.

We must be of those Paul is speaking of.

Truthiron



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


This had already been answered but I just want to expand on it.

This version of the scripture explains that these were actually Jews

The Jews at Beroea were of a nobler disposition than those in Thessalonica,


What, though, made those Jews in Beroea so noble-minded?
Though the Beroeans were hearing something new, they were not suspicious or harshly critical; neither were they gullible. First, they listened carefully to what Paul had to say. Then, they verified what they had learned by turning to the Scriptures, which Paul had opened up to their understanding. He of course was advocating the truth that the Messiah had come already and died. So they diligently studied the Word of God, not just on the Sabbath, but daily. They devoted themselves to finding out what the Scriptures revealed in light of this new teaching. Then, they proved humble enough to make changes, for “many of them became believers.” (Acts 17:12)

Jewish converts to Christianity, since the Jews generally reject the Christ, these Jews are held up as example for Christians today.




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