What is a Christian?

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Well said, friend. Also, we must adhere to everything the Bible teaches us because it is the only way we will know how to really be a follower of Christ.

"For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope." (Romans 15:4)

reply to post by kinglizard

A Christian is a follower of Christ as we see him. No matter the individual viewpoints of biblical teachings a follower of Christ is a Christian.

I used to believe that. In fact, there is a part of me that still wants to hold on to that belief, but Christ himself spoke of true followers and false ones when he said:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Actually the once saved always saved, is the false Christian dogma, after all if it was true then the unforgivable sin of blasphemy would be impossible to commit.

It is impossible to commit today. People do not see Jesus preforming miracles right in front of them and attribute it to satan.

Secondly, how many of your sins were yet future when Christ died for you? All mine were.

Originally posted by bijouramov
reply to post by kinglizard

 

A Christian is a follower of Christ as we see him. No matter the individual viewpoints of biblical teachings a follower of Christ is a Christian.

I used to believe that. In fact, there is a part of me that still wants to hold on to that belief, but Christ himself spoke of true followers and false ones when he said:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

The bible also says that on that day (Great White Throne Judgment) every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord. You cannot cherry-pick verses and form a doctrine that contradicts other verses in scripture. Romans 10:9 states simply what a person must do to be saved.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You cannot cherry-pick verses and form a doctrine that contradicts other verses in scripture.

Please explain to us how Matthew 7:21 contradicts what is said in Philippians 2:11? Maybe we should reflect on ourselves first before we start accusing someone of cherry-picking verses in the Bible.

And you still haven't provided verses to support this:

When Christ ascended He left the leadership of the apostles to Peter.

Just a verse or two that would undeniably prove that Peter had supremacy over the other apostles...

Secondly, how many of your sins were yet future when Christ died for you? All mine were.

Are you telling us that you're no longer accountable for the sins you commit because all of them past, present, and future ones were already paid for by Christ? That no matter what you do, no matter how many sins you commit intentionally and unintentionally, you would still be saved when Christ returns? And what makes you so sure that you're not one of those Christ spoke of in Matthew 7:21?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven."

How can we say we do the will of the Father when we sin? If you,who believe in this "once saved always saved" notion are caught in the act of sinning at the moment of Christ's return, what, in all honesty, do you think will Christ tell you?

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth-Rom9

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.-Rom7

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.-8

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.-John5

Paul also brought out the need to obey, it shows who is the master of you.-

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The one I hear overall said, "If you love ME, keep my commandments".

Truthiron.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Jesus was 100% human. Jesus was brought up within a family like most kids are. Jesus grew up learning and asking the same questions about religion and believes as we do. Jesus had very strong opinions about what he had learned and what he observed.

Jesus told the people what he observed. The morality of our intentions, believes and our actions. Jesus used similarities from our daily experiences to describe our intentions, to describe how selfish and ignorant we are in the things we do.

We all look upon this earth and cry in vane. And say. This is not the world i had in mind. This is not the world i want us to live in.

This world you see in front of you, is not the result of our sins. Its a result of our understanding. It is the result of our sacrifice and labour. We are not being punished by God. We are being punished by our own lack of understanding.

This is what Jesus wanted to tell us. We are doing this all wrong. And you cant argue with that.



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For me, the love of Christ is the only thing left in the final analysis, the only thing that is reasonable, and logical, and which gives meaning to life. As a seeker, I simply had no where else to go, except to fall at his feet, and we all fall somewhere down the line.. where there is always an attachment to an outcome, between the gap of what is, and what ought to be. So Jesus Christ then represents imho, a bridge over troubled waters, and the regeneration of new life and new possibility.

A real Christian, imho, isn't someone who simply "believes" in Jesus Christ only, as something external to himself (or herself), but someone who's wanting to have an encounter with the spirit of God, and who recogizes in Jesus the fullness of that spirit, and who, after some very careful and even cautious "courting", cannot help themselves, but to fall deeply and madly in love, with love itself, and that's it that's all.

How we may then be informed by that love, may vary to a degree, but only to a degree.

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine


I would add that Jesus is also the Tree of Life, which could also be thought of as a Tree of Liberty, whereby "our liberation is God's compulsion" (C.S. Lewis).

Set free for the sake of freedom, where true freedom is the freedom to love, and where love cannot be love, unless it is free.

New love, new life - that's Jesus Christ.

Once that relationship is in place, and the co-mingling of the spirit of God (of love and life transcendant), and the spirit of man, a process that is occuring (human being as a work in progress), while we may wish to refresh our understanding every now and again with reference to the Bible, in particular the Gospels (as much as I enjoy the reading of Paul's interpretations), it is that love relationship I've described which matters most.

Some Christians know the Bible like the back of their hand, but they haven't "grokked" its meaning and significance, and do not have the love of the Lord in them and are what may be termed spiritually "dry".

So, whoever loves neighbor as self, and God above all, as Jesus loved and loves, that person is a Christian, while the Bible expert, regardless of what he or she may profess to believe, may not be, in truth.

The "fruits" are the evidence however.

In their activity, and their love, can a "real" Christian be identified.

P.S. My confidence is not my own. I am not arrogant, only self expressed, which could appear as arrogance to the uninformed.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


There is one thing i dont get about dedicated Christians. Why do you all have to fall upon the feet of Christ to experiance the spirit of God. According to creation in genesis chapter 1. We are all borne with the spirit of God. We are all borne in the image of God.

We dont lack the spirit of God. We lack to recognize that we have it.

Jesus talked a lot about morality and moral values "love". We don't lack morality or moral values. We are all capable.

We dont need to return to morality because we where never moral. We have to find morality. We have to discover it. But you dont have to find God to discover morality, when it already is within you.

That is what Jesus tried to tell us.

reply to post by spy66


Because of the prior flaw in my thinking and my being and my propensity for selfishness, and self centeredness, because of my willful pride and arrogance, I was unable to be that bridge over the chasm between what is and what ought to be.

In short, I was unable to do for myself, what only God could do for me. I was unable to engineer my own salvation, and even if I could have, I would not have become the model of holiness, but only, assholiness..

That's why "the falling at the feet of Christ", and not without tears.

But that's not the whole story either. I was told to rise, and taught how to laugh again, no matter the degree of the depth of my sorrow.

I am very philosophically minded, and I know something about the space of nothing, let us say.

Absent the Great Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, life would end in an insult, and an injustice, which would make no room for authentic good natured LAUGHTER.

So part of it for me, was the type of seeking which would try to seek out the root and source of evil "back there" somewhere, so as to kill it, but I could not find it's origin, neither within, without, or generationally. I did however find the end of evil in the cross of Jesus Christ, who's restored to me a sense of HUMOUR, and that's pretty important, especially in this day and age! And here I'm talking about the humour that arises in the space of nothing, as as a creative process, something loving, something worthwhile, something formative.

Jesus Christ restores that by bracketing or by "treating" the evil, at the very core of humanity, but few understand this, or understand even why it's neccessary. They do not have the mind for it, the seeking mind that will not relent until satisfied with the answer to THE question. Then there is another mind, perhaps that same mind, the seeking mind, which, in order to keep seeking, will quite literally SKIP the answer once found, and just keep on seeking, that's the way most people are, but some of us, for whatever reason, by fate or circumstance or whatever, we get trapped in a type of psychological and spiritual wedge (as Jesus surely did himself), which leads in one and only one direction, to the narrow way that leads to life, through the cross.

"Pick up your cross, and follow me."

There is one more thing that just came to mind, worth sharing I think.

There is always an inevitable, and inescapable attachment to an outcome, as I mentioned - between what is and what ought to be (and as we know there's a LOT of room still for improvement in every sphere of human activity). Even in the space of nothing at all, there is still something to DO, something creative, fun, loving and joyful and happy (what are we to do, nothing at all?), or, even something requiring the ability to help carry the suffering of others, including our own suffering - a reason or a purpose, in other words, as an inevitability.

This is another reason why I'm a Christian - to have an object of devotion, and a worthwhile attachment in this regard, where the student can never be as great as the master.

So it's also a model of authentic leadership, not just appropriate gratitude (worship), and at some point I would imagine Jesus would like to say to the Jesus worshippers and thankers - ENOUGH! I don't need that, just love as I love you, get out there, get going, DO SOMETHING! I've heard all these prayers and thanks and songs already, it's getting BORING - who among you will create something new in the world worthy of me, and who will ask for my help to realize the object of my love and help to bring heaven to earth?

In a way the worship of Jesus Christ is absurd, except that, as Christians we are of course grateful, but most of all this fawning over him is unneccessary and a little inauthentic, since that same Christian who's filled with the spirit on Sunday, yells at his children abusively the very next day, or forgets about it all the moment he leaves the church building!

Re: Morality

"Love, and do as you will"
~ St. Augustine

So in effect, I will remain a Christian, until I reach the full stature of Christ, re-made in his likeness, and let's just say I have a ways to go yet..
So while we may start out as his feet, we end up celebrating with him, side by side, and even inside and out.

Add the great GIFT in all of this - is our true self as we really are, fully self expressed, fully loving, fully alive. Any "real" Christian then, is more attractive, as a pearl in the gate of the City of God, than repulsive..!
So, to say to someone ELSE - "you need Jesus" before they even HAVE Jesus, well that's just INSANE! But it gets even worse than that (re: the love of Jesus), when they say, you MUST accept Jesus (without even properly introducing him), or you are going to go to HELL, forever! Can you imagine that?!!! Now THAT is an outrage, and nothing but the work of the devil wrapping himself in the cross.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I cant pick up the cross and fallow you. I have to fallow my own path. My moral level is not equal to yours.

Jesus told us not to use symbols or totems. Jesus told us not to worship him or the cross. Jesus told us to worship love and moral values " The spirit of God". Jesus wanted us to improve morally. You wont do that by looking at a symbol or by holding on to a symbol. What if you loose it. Or someone steels it. Wont that change how you feel?

How many people haven't been hurt by people who hide their moral values behind the cross?

I dont know if you understand what i mean by this.

I am not disagreeing with your methods if they help "you". Its just that i have a different angle towards understanding all this. I am glad that you are at least trying

reply to post by spy66

I only meant that we all have a cross to bear, that's all, which signifies suffering, either our own and/or the suffering of the world in which we live. It's just a statement about the truth about the human condition, that's all it means.

And to each his own, since freedom is the name of the game, and I totally honor that, and this is where I part company with many of my Christian "bretheren", who think Jesus Christ and their interpretation or system needs to be forced down people's throats, what might be called the cult of Churchianity.

And to you also for trying, since trying, in the space of freedom, with love, that's what it's all about.

reply to post by spy66

Grace under pressure, grace, under fire - unto grace upon grace, that's what it means and signifies.

And who am I? Who do I think I am?

I am like the Bride of Christ, who's just getting sick and tired of whoring around and worshipping false idols, that's me.

May "we" (all of us) somehow get to the end of the Revelation, relatively unscathed, to get a drink of that living water between two trees, with the tree of the duality of good and evil conspicuously absent the frame of reference.

And you see, here is where I would be accused of blasphemy and of wanting to rescript the ending.. but I don't care about that, only the love of God through Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Actually the once saved always saved, is the false Christian dogma, after all if it was true then the unforgivable sin of blasphemy would be impossible to commit.

It is impossible to commit today. People do not see Jesus preforming miracles right in front of them and attribute it to satan.

Secondly, how many of your sins were yet future when Christ died for you? All mine were.

So you are saying that Blasphemy could only be committed by those that observed the Christ directly?
That is not what the bible teaches.

Hebrews 6:4-6

4For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—
6and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

Hebrews 10: 26-29

26Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins...
29Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

This all by itself shows the once saved always saved is false dogma, that springs from a misunderstanding of the mercy provided by the ransom of the Christ. A balanced understanding is required, the ransom covers almost everything evil a person could do, IF a person is willing to change by repenting and stopping what the bible condemns. Even if a person relapses there is coverage by grace/mercy. It is available to every human on the planet. However the above quoted scriptures show God will not tolerate perpetual abuse of the ransom sacrifice by those that have an accurate understanding of scripture, AND claim to be Christians.

reply to post by Astyanax

Originally posted by Astyanax
Only someone who accepts the Nicene Creed in full may be regarded, technically, as a Christian--that is, as a member of a worldwide, if hopelessly schismatized and quarrelsome, community of believers. If you disagree, you are simply not a Christian, whatever you yourself may think. Christianity is not a matter of self-description.

Does this mean that there were no Christians, prier to 4th century A.D?

I kind of agree with King Lizard because IMO a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus, regardless of the denomination they belong to.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


But does one need to accept Jesus in the trinitarian sense to be a Christian?

I mean, I'm a dude that thinks Jesus said some pretty damn good things and was an overall brilliant speaker for his time (if he existed, which I'm actually skeptical about, but for the sake of argument I'll give that a miss and speak as if it were proven because that is not the sake of this thread and please do not respond to this off-hand statement because it is not meant to be anything more than an off-hand statement)...anyway, my aside notwithstanding, Jesus was a generally cool dude, especially for someone living in that region in the first century.

Does this make me a Christian?

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


It cannot be made useless of course, but if we have the love of God in us, and apply that in our lives, relative to our fellow man, in the same spirit of love and forgiveness, then at the very worst we will grieve the spirit, the very spirit that lives in us, since the separation from God was removed, and a co-mingling or a consumation of some kind occured, and Jesus does not leave his own.
For who with the love of Christ will willfully seek to do what is hurtful, that's absurd.

Therefore the JOB of the Christian, is to believe and recieve, more and more, and wherever we falter, yes, we must repent, and repent again, but always seek more of the love which will eventually make repentance, a thing of the past, and freedom in love, the future we're joyfully rolling into.

So I think ideally it is best if we do not need instruction but the early church had to have instruction. We are to be free to love freely. "Love and do as thou will" (Augustine).

This is the life Christ brings to the ones who love him, a happy life, not a life always lived regretfully or in guilt. We are a work in progress and all we can do is continue to allow that process to take place until the work is complete.

The sinful man, the "old man", he cannot really come for that ride however, and must at some point either be properly integrated or left behind as a perishable item, but Christ knows already how to perform all required miracles in the transformation of the human being, if only given our permission to do so, since he is the perfect gentleman.

The Little House That God Built

"Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself."
— C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity)

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I have a good way to pose the question

If you think that Jesus Christ alone possesses a gift of of eternal life, and lives in spirit, then, now and forever, and that his sacrifice was meaningful, and if meaningful, then by extension of the utmost significance, and if you then accepted or came to understand, that he represents God's give to you (from love to you with love), which by implication assigns to you yourself, accepted fully and unconditionally, as you are, a value of infinite measure, while carrying with it, even if only in potentia, eternity in God's love (whatever that might mean) - then that would do it.

So he'd have to go from cool guy back then - to a true friend, now and forever, for you to be said to have a relationship WITH him in koinonia (intimate participation).

that's the best I could come up with at the moment for whatever it's worth..