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Many claim to be false christians

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posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by stupid girl
 


Next time, would you please care to format things in a way that's a bit more...readable? If you want I can private message you a crash course in formatting, I know it was a problem for me in few months on ATS.


Originally posted by stupid girl
Does a real Christian see Jesus as merely a human, as a divine human, as a human that is both 100% human and 100% Yahweh, as a being that is 50% human and 50% Yahweh (or some other proportion, as I'm not going to bother writing out all possible proportions because that would be both silly and painful), or some other version I haven't bothered to mention?
1. Fully divine, fully human.


Ok, why?



Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?
2. God is one all-pervading being. He is omnipotent and omniscient, but also capable of expressing Himself physically (Jesus) and spiritually (Holy Spirit).


So...unitarian?



Do real Christians observe Judaic law?
3. Only insomuch as the one which Jesus said summed up The Law and the prophets, "Do unto others whatever you would like them to do to you."


...but Jesus doesn't really dismiss outright Judaic dietary laws anywhere.



Do real Christians subscribe to the Pope as the successor of Peter and thus extend Petrine privilege to him?
4. To my knowledge, Peter was never the Pope of Rome which negates the Pope being his successor. As far as "Petrine privilege," I am not aware of anyone having the authority of absolution other than Jesus.


There's the quote I referenced in an above response from Matthew. In it Jesus tells Peter that he is the rock upon which the Church will be built.



Do real Christians give Mary, the mother of Jesus, special privilege?
5. Special privilege? Like praying to Mary? No. However, Mary is extremely honored as the mother of Jesus.


Ok.



Do real Christians think Mary was born without original sin?
6. The only human being that never sinned is Jesus.


I'm not saying 'never sinned', I'm saying 'original sin'. To my knowledge, I hadn't sinned prior to my birth.

And where are you getting the idea that Jesus never sinned?




Do real Christians think Mary maintained her virginity throughout life?
7. No. We are told that Jesus had brothers, and most likely also had sisters as well.


Reference please?



Was this because of a divine "instant regeneration of virginity" spell Yahweh placed upon her or was it simply because she abstained throughout life?
8. God doesn't place "spells" on people.


Spell was used metaphorically.

And God has been known to place something akin to 'spells' on people, like his mark of protection on Cain.



There is no reason to think that Mary abstained from sexual intimacy with her husband. Regardless, speculating on the sexual prowess of the mother of God is pointless and diversionary.


Eh, for some people it's a major point of doctrinal contention. I'm not the one that makes up the questions, I just asked them.



Do real Christians have Saints?
9. In the Bible, "Saints" merely translates as "God's people"


So...yes?



Are real Christians saved through "faith" or "works" or some combination of the two?
10. Salvation is by faith. You either believe it is possible (exhibiting faith), or you don't (not exhibiting faith). The natural result of your faith is the way you live your life ("works"). That said, faith will inevitably express itself through your works.


What about those who do not believe in Yahweh/Jesus and yet go on to perform works that rival even the greatest believer? Or are you of the mind that only believers are able to perform good works?

References?



Do real Christians have to be "born again"?
11. Yes.


Reference please.



If yes, what would being "born again" entail?
12. Basically is it the spiritual awakening, if you will, by the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God). In Genesis 2:17 God warns that in eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, one would die.


But he was sort of...not telling the truth. They didn't die.



When Adam & Eve did eat of the tree (or whatever it was), we know that they did not physically die.


Yes, I sort of contented that. You seem to have anticipated my response.

I think you should have gone with the username "Clever Girl"



God meant that they would die spiritually once becoming privy to evil, giving it access to their spirits and thus susceptible to and tormented by perpetual temptation. The result of this was spiritual separation from God (akin to a spiritual death).


May I please have references that establish the validity of this claim?



What place does baptism have in the life of real Christians?
13. It's place is symbolic and considered a public affirmation of your belief in salvation through Jesus Christ.




Do real Christians interpret the Bible literally?
14. Yes.
Figuratively?
15. Yes.


Um...care to clear up this apparent contradiction?

As for contradictions, how do you handle scriptural contradiction?



Do they have a specific criteria for which parts are literal and which are not?
16. Yes.


Being?



Which version of the Biblical canon do they accept?
17. Well, there are so many translations available, I think if you put them all together then they all get the point accross pretty cohesively.


Yes, but some of them are widely divergent on some pretty basic points. Like...the translation in which Mary wasn't a virgin when Jesus was born.



Do they give equal credence to the Old Testament?
18. Yes.


Ok, how come?



Are real Christians creationists?
19. Yes.


But why must they accept something that is so clearly fictional?
Evolution remains unfalsified and well proven.
While creationism remains unproven and based primarily in an ignorance of science.



If yes, are they old Earth or young Earth creationists?
20. Personally, I wasn't there when it happened so I don't presume to know. I could care less exactly how old the Earth is and see it as a meaningless point of contention.


Ok then.



If old Earth, is it a perpetual Earth that existed from the moment of creation or is it an Earth that was formed by Yahweh or natural processes later on in the existence of the universe?
21. The moment of creation? There are many moments of creation: light, heavens, stars, moon, etc. Earth was created in the succession of those moments.


Yes, oddly enough the Sun is created...after the Earth. Hell, the Sun comes in after plants.
It and the Moon (which is oddly enough described as a light) are created on the fourth day.



If young Earth, exactly how young is the Earth for real Christians?
22. See number 20


Got it.



Which version of the 10 commandments do real Christians accept?
23. See Matthew 22:36-40 and 19:16-19. Chapter 19, verses 16 through 19 basically sum up my answer to number 3


Lemme take a quick look. I'm going to use the KJV because most of the reference websites I use go to it first.

Ok, so the 10 commandments don't really matter in the great scheme of things.



Which version of the death of Jesus do real Christians accept?
24. Which version? I am only aware of one version. Jesus was crucified.


Yes, but the telling of the story is a bit different between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.



Do real Christians see one Gospel as more important than the others?
25. No. They are all equally relative, albeit from different perspectives.


Care to elaborate?



If so, which Gospel do real Christians hold up above the others?
26. None


Alrighty.



What position do real Christians take on icons?
27. Icons? Like idols? Like, idolizing someone or an object type idol? We don't worship statues.


I was thinking more depictions of important figures within the religion. Though that is also a point of contention among those who do allow for the depiction of religious figures.



What opinion of women do real Christians have?
28. I have no idea what you are referring to. Seriously, like I don't even know what to do with that.


Um...read the letters that Paul wrote. He said some pretty sexist things.



Do real Christians allow women to teach?
29. Yes


Then why must they contradict the Bible?

1 Timothy 2:11-12


Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.




What is a real Christian's opinion of homosexuals?
30. I try not to have an "opinion" of anyone, lest I find myself in the act of judging them. In which case, I have no business judging anyone, which is also beside the fact that it is not our place to judge anyway. Having said that, I have very close friends who are gay who have been extremely candid in sharing with me that their sexuality is something that they feel is a spiritual struggle for them. One of them even used the word "torment." These people are my friends and I have no "opinion" of them other than to love them and treat them as such.


Good to know.



What is a real Christian's opinion of Jewish individuals?
31. They are human beings who live on earth and practice the Jewish faith. Much like myself, except I practice the Christian faith.


Good to know as well.
Too bad more Christians don't follow this sort of ethic.



And can you please provide arguments and evidence (be it Biblical or otherwise) to support your position?
31b. I don't have that kind of time on my hands right now.


I'm patient enough. Take your time with it. I'm more concerned with truth than speed.



Besides, if you are truly interested in the validity of my answers because you are seeking Truth as opposed to seeking argument for argument's sake, they would be easily found in a Bible concordance.


No, not really. Hence why there are so many different types of Christian in the world.



I'll have more questions once you take care of those.
32. I can't promise I can answer them, I have a lot of my own theological questions that I have yet to find answers to. Plus, I probably won't have time to because I'm going out of town in the morning



Have fun. And remember, this is a forum, the thread will still be here when you're gone.
edit on 8/12/10 by madnessinmysoul because: quote fix




posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by sykickvision
 


** DELETED BECAUSE IT BASHED CHRISTIANITY **
edit on 8-12-2010 by sykickvision because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 02:37 AM
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I bet there are many who can be called christian who didn't know that the special feeling they have is of Christ, ones who have tons of faith. Ones who would doubt being christians if you told them. It's ljust life they would tell you. They just are very friendly and conscious.
edit on 2010/12/9 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 02:44 AM
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edit on 2010/12/9 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)



there is only the name christian,

a christian is one who took Jesus by heart and is saved of the inherited sin of death. They are people who will live forever or be resurrected when they die. How do you tell by look èh

edit on 2010/12/9 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 03:57 AM
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reply to post by etherical waterwave
 


I like replying to myuself:

Christianity:

www.youtube.com...


Phoenix rises from the ashes, leave the past behind.
Those who took my lust for life are buried in my mind.
Smell the air feel the breeze, a new wind is blowing.
Hear the sound of victory, the repressed are awaking.
Lifting the ban - that made me change for the worse.
I finaly escaped - from this curse.
A new breed of hope - is what they have to cope.
Feel the strenght - 'till the better end.
Dogs are barking in my face so they're not able to bite.
Pointing at mistakes of my past, I'm focused on what's yet to come.
Anger and distortion, my fuel for life, my engine is turning like never before.
(repeat chorus)
As the last silence is broken.
Lifting the ban...




www.youtube.com...

Unknown Man
Speaks To The World
Sucking Your Trust
A Trap In Every World

War For Territory
War For Territory

Choice Control
Behind Propaganda
Poor Information
To Manage Your Anger

War For Territory
War For Territory

Dictators' Speech
Blasting Off Your Life
Rule To Kill The Urge
Dumb Assholes' Speech

Years Of Fighting
Teaching My Son
To Believe In That Man
Racist Human Being
Racist Ground Will Live
Shame And Regret
Of The Pride
You've Once Possessed

War For Territory
War For Territory


They took on christians.

edit on 2010/12/9 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by etherical waterwave
 


Why did you post territory from sepultura?? quality posts etheric waterwave.



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Interesting enough. Now can I hear your justifications?

He came here as one of us and delivered the message we needed to hear. Jesus presented himself as the authority that which God had sent down. Through him the teachings were updated and given.



Does this include Jesus?


Jesus was a divine being who was sent by God to deliver a message. I couldn't tell you if it applied to Jesus or not because I didn't watch him grow. My only concern is the word of the Lord and how it will affect my life and those around me. Was Jesus susceptible to sin? I don't think anyone could answer that, if they say they can they are lying.



Are real Christians trinitarian or unitarian?

Um...that doesn't really answer my question. Do real Christians believe in trinitarianism or unitarianism?


That is a complicated question which you will receive many different answers, depending on who you ask. That is like asking which theory is the correct one pertaining to the beginning of time. I could answer that question but no one knows the answer.



Ok, so for you it's a point of non-contention, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme.
Or am I misunderstanding you?

Now can you please back this position up?


In a sense I am non-contentious but there are some laws that we must obey. The ten commandments as well as the 2 main laws Jesus taught. If society decides to go against those 12 laws than it would mean I have to go against society.



What about Petrine privilege?

What about it? Marry who you want as long as you don't get corrupted nor your children. Remember, everyone is equal and if you marry someone who isn't baptized it should be alright. As long as you understand the consequence of corruption to you or your kids. If your faith is strong and your love is strong as well than marry whom you want.



Being....? The Bible?


Perhaps. Although in our society some parts of the Bible would be rendered useless such as stoning and etc. Take the true teachings and apply them.



What?
How does honoring parents branch of from that?


Neighbor is a universal term which applies to all humans. Every human is a neighbor on this small planet.



Would you care to do a bit of research? Not saying that snarkily, I'd just like to hear what you have to say after some study of her history.


Every organization has a dark past. My beliefs are my own only, others may feel differently so you have to ask everyone else. Mary, as holy as she is, I can't pray to her.



Ok, can you please provide some sort of justification or evidence?


Research yourself because the argument goes both ways as I indicated in my reply. I said that some people do but I feel it is wrong to pray to anyone other than God. I pray through Jesus who sits on the right hand of God.



Again, please provide some evidence.


Again these are my beliefs and mine only. I can't speak for 1+ billion people around the world. You can't just pray and expect to be saved. If someone asks for your help you should help them. Jesus said to ask and you shall receive, but what good is that if someone else asks for your help and you turn them down? So a combination of Faith and Works goes a long way.



Alright, more elaboration, justification please.
What if I just love my neighbor?


That's good! But I can't answer that question fully since no one knows what happens when you die. I won't feed you the line that you will go to hell because in fact I don't know for sure. If I say otherwise than it means I am judging you for being an atheist.



The New Testament mentions slavery too. And I only mention those to Biblical literalists and those who claim the Bible is inerrant.


The Bible was written in times that built upon the laws of Hammurabi which showed to mercy for slaves. We are 2,000 years later so those verses don't apply. The bible would have been correct in those times but again, we must keep building as society develops.



I agree.
So I take it that you're not a literalist?


In a sense, no. I believe in keeping the main practice but also modernizing ourselves.


Alright, an errant Bible it is. At least when it comes to law.


My views, yes.



So...creationism doesn't matter. Alright, good to know.

There is a lot we don't know about our planet but anything is possible I suppose.



Huh? Um...again, care to back this one up?


You know the 10 commandments:
1. Don't worship other gods-Love your God
2 Graven images - love your God, out of respect you shouldn't worship graven images because they will be false
3. Don't take Lord's name in vain, again Love your God, out of respect.
4. Sabbath day - God worked hard and on the 7th he rested and out of respect for him you need your rest. That one day makes the biggest difference through stress, muscle repair, and your mood. Again out of respect. Since the sabbath is God's day we need the rest.
5. Honor your parents which is formed through love
6. Don't murder - love thy neighbor
7. Adultery - love your neighbor, nowadays sex is used to objectify everyone and is much confused with lust
8. Don't steal - love for your neighbor don't steal his things
9. Lying again love your neighbor
10. Don't covet neighbors stuff

Again this is only brief and we can go into much detail. I didn't even branch out just a half-a$$ list. But trust me you could branch out a love with just love your god and neighbor.



Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
4 different stories of the life and death of Jesus.
Not horribly different, but some have key differences.

Well I am not hung up on the death of Jesus, but his teachings. How a man dies is irrelevant if you follow how he lived.



Ok.
Which teachings would be the important ones?
...would they be love God/your neighbor?



As well as the 10 commandments.



It helps the less creatively minded people?

I dunno, I was just asking because it was a major point of contention that caused a schism.

I am taught to believe graven images is a sin.




So this is yet another point where you disagree with the Bible.

Times have changed.



Good standard.


t/y.


What is a real Christian's opinion of Jewish individuals?

They're humans, I think.




Why not? A bunch of random statements of belief really don't help with the distinction between real and false.


Again it depends on who you ask. I summed up my whole belief as those 12 laws. 2 from Jesus 10 from Moses. I believe I am living a pretty good life. not the best Christian good enough, for now anyway.


Also, sorry for the tardy reply, this is a bit of a messy thread and I've been busy.
edit on 8/12/10 by madnessinmysoul because: quote fix


My too. I would stay and elaborate more but I have exams. My apologies.



posted on Dec, 12 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


What I believe..

Jesus Christ was born of God, walked this earth as a human and demonstrated divine insight and powers, died on the cross and arose on the third day, thereby overcoming death.

To be a “real” Christian one would have to accept the words/concepts of Jesus as the truth and live by his instructions on how to deal with things. Some people could be real Christians without following everything and are referred to as “Babes in Christ”. They have not come to the full knowledge. As the saying goes, “their heart is in the right place”.
So to go point by point is mute, because true Christians can be at different places in their learning. So we do not know it all, but, “the just shall live by His faith”. To sum it up “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”.
It takes strength of character to “love those that hate you, use and abuse you” and “bless them”. To gain understanding, have the veil rented and continue on the path, doing the same as before you knew how wretched the world truly is.

“God’s power is made perfect in weakness” not strength. The strong, know-it-all sorcerers have no need to depend on a higher power to obtain justice when there is none.



posted on Dec, 13 2010 @ 08:28 AM
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It is to find insight to insight to be fulfilled by it. To become an insightful human. With insight comes wisdom. Many run up a unfaithfull belief whom we find running around the earth erected by this find. One word and fallen they are to become on their feet again. Don't they think on their own, don't they mirror their thoughts on their heart? To let no evil enter their spiritual metabolism



posted on Dec, 13 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by kinglizard
Some people like to make things so complicated....

There is no mystical hard to define labyrinth one needs to navigate in order to follow Christ's teachings and be saved. Just accept him as your savior, repent and turn from sin. It's the intent and striving to be better that counts.


Question: Once one discovers that the entire New Testament was written by the Roman Piso Family many years after Jesus dies, and then you discover that the tomb of Jesus was found, how do you follow the "teachings" of a man who probably never lived, and the only real evidence is a book written by the enemies of the Jewish People?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

And friend, no one has a "saviour" that is coming to save you from the end of the World, it is not going to happen. We have to save ourselves, friend, that is the thing.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 13 2010 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


You said teachings autowrench, so teachings are teachings for teachings are these.

It is a ............Teaching, so....

To learn from the teaching, teached.



posted on Dec, 13 2010 @ 12:21 PM
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I have a scripture & pictures that really cuts to the endgame of this discussion.

1 John 3: 10-12 (Amplified Bible)

10By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow believer in Christ).
11For this is the message (the announcement) which you have heard from the first, that we should love one another,
12[And] not be like Cain who [took his nature and got his motivation] from the evil one and slew his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his deeds (activities, works) were wicked and malicious and his brother's were righteous (virtuous).




Excerpt of: "Germany and the Holy Roman Empire" by Gerald Flurry

"The Vatican was so appreciative of being recognized as a full partner (with Hitler and the Reich) that it asked God to bless the Reich. On a more practical level, it ordered German bishops to swear allegiance to the National Socialist regime. The new oath concluded with these significant words: ‘In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interest of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it’”





Bishops bless members of the British armed forces on the steps of St. Paul's Cathedral in London.

Throughout history so-called Christians have been violating the above scripture killing
"his fellow believer in Christ", during the second world war German Catholics killing British and American Catholics, not to mention the Catholic Italians who killed for both sides. Protestants that went to war were no better.
Consider this, if both sides had enough christian contentious objectors, the war would never have happened.
Atheists during WW2 were almost unheard of, almost all soldiers had a religion within Christendom.

If the draft ever comes again, I will obey God as ruler, rather than man, and I will be going to jail as a contentious objector, or maybe by then it will be camps like the Nazi's made. I wonder how many Christians of the western democracies of the world would be willing to do that in the 21st century? I mean actually really follow what the bible says. Who knows maybe some atheists will be joining me there, as they won't fight either, as they feel they have evolved to the point that they will not slaughter there fellow human, and wouldn't that be ironic.





edit on 13-12-2010 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:01 AM
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Abel didn't do anything wrong, Cain just took on him because of his evil nature. Abel left innocent was murdered out of the nothing.


May God still have mercy on our souls!!
edit on 2010/12/14 by etherical waterwave because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2010 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Is this thread dead, or are people still reading it? 'Cuz I don't want to spend a lot of time re-answering & expounding answers if there's no one around to hear the tree fall.
If it is still being read, then I will most likely have to do my reply per question, rather than the whole she-bang like I did the first time.



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