Texas Woman Jailed for Overdue Library Books

reply to post by buddhasystem


Oh dear, the Taxpayer's fault! I now see what the problem is here, you actually believe your taxes go for goods and services to you.

Libraries exist as an extension of the Great Law, where William Penn decreed amongst many other things, all people should be educated to the point that they can provide some vital service and function to the state.

Simiarly he decreed that the common stock (you) shall be levied to offest the cost of infrastructure improvements for the increased profit of the stock holders (your Masters who sent your ancestors as labor on these improvements) and the Bond Holders (those corporate conglomerates that invested money to pay the stock to make these infrastructure improvements to develop markets and make maximum profit).

The vast majority of your taxes in fact go to paying investors of stock and the bonds that date back hundreds of years most of which are foreign held.

In case you haven't noticed we are enslaved to debt, in fact 14 trillion dollars of it presently in which only 1.9 trillion in currency exists to pay that debt back.

This is why they are called bonds, as they enslave us all to being Taxpayers, to pay the dividends to the investors and owners.

What services you are provided by the State are simply services that are in the State's and the Corporations own interest, no matter how you may otherwise imagine they benefit you.

They would be provided regardless of how much you are taxed or not.

This woman's fines in part are simply being levied to pay obligations incurred by the State's which our corporations to the investors in that corporation.

While they love that you believe this fiction that you do, in case you haven't noticed they are in fact taking on average 50% of what you earn off the top in various taxes, securities, insurances and fees, and then collecting the bulk of the rest of it through the purchase of vital goods and services to you through the corporations that have been designed to both control and enslave you through the distribution of most of what you need to actually survive on this planet.

Your ability to focus on the smallest and most narrow view of a circumstance, literally blinds you in this case to even beginning to have a larger understanding of what is going on in this world.

Going on in our nation, and who is really profiting off all this insanity and why.

There are a wealth of sources on ATS to learn the hidden system of laws in the nation and the world, and about the underpinnings of our Statist system and how it's designed to be absolutely no benefit to you at all, with every benefit and right going to the corporation.

You should really consider investigating these things while on the site, as opposed to demanding a pound of flesh from a fellow free range slave. Such attitudes on the part of such unlearned and unattentive people is actually what is perpetuating this imprisoning system, where a book becomes so valuable failure to treat it in the fashion the state decrees can land you in jail.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Oh dear, the Taxpayer's fault! I now see what the problem is here, you actually believe your taxes go for goods and services to you.

As I said before, and in case you haven't read it, I'm using the library quite a bit. Is it goods and services that I make use of? Certainly is. It's local taxes and the fraction that goes to the library is listed in the tax statement. I pay and I get services. Somebody steals books, they steal from me. If you aren't capable of understanding this, I can't help you here. How does reading books makes me a slave (in your words) is equally beyond me. You just really seem to be full of hot air with little substance.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
...
This woman's fines in part are simply being levied to pay obligations incurred by the State's which our corporations to the investors in that corporation.
...

And her neighbors were in no way inconvenienced by the loss of these books? They weren't available for anyone else to use.
...the library wasn't inconvenienced? If they did an inter-branch book transfer or otherwise replaced the books money was spent to accomodate that.

There's what her fees are for.

You can't run around complaining about the government owes us something because we pay for it then ask for the individual's forgiveness and absolution when the individuals can't hold up their end of the contract.

I take that back... you and so many others can. Now there's a double standard for you.
When the people do it, they're entitled; when the government does it, it's rape.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Oh dear, the Taxpayer's fault! I now see what the problem is here, you actually believe your taxes go for goods and services to you.

As I said before, and in case you haven't read it, I'm using the library quite a bit. Is it goods and services that I make use of? Certainly is. It's local taxes and the fraction that goes to the library is listed in the tax statement. I pay and I get services. Somebody steals books, they steal from me. If you aren't capable of understanding this, I can't help you here. How does reading books makes me a slave (in your words) is equally beyond me. You just really seem to be full of hot air with little substance.

Here are just a few places your 'logic' breaks down.

Do you live in the same Library System as this woman? If no then she hasn't stolen from 'you'.

If you feel you 'own' these books, because you 'imagine' your taxes are paying for them, then she too would 'own' these books, therefore how can one steal from themselves? In reality you 'can't.

Now here is further where your thinking really is just all about 'you' as you can't return a book that has been destroyed in a fire.

So how does an accident a fire an act of 'God' then become theft?

Your argument all breaks down to a selfish one where you percieve you have been deliberately defrauded for some bizarre reason by a poor woman loosing library books in a house fire, where she is bound to have lost far more than the books.

Your argument as you point out is what you consider to be all about you, you might want to check out the philosophy section of your library, and then demand a full accounting of all your tax money to see just what it is you imagine you 'own' that in fact you are subsidizing something profit enterprises 'own' with them.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Do you live in the same Library System as this woman? If no then she hasn't stolen from 'you'.

PT, I thought you mastered the concept of "analogy" a long time ago. It's a useful tool in logic and discourse, in case you didn't know.

If you feel you 'own' these books, because you 'imagine' your taxes are paying for them, then she too would 'own' these books

Oh, it's really bad... I see. Let me spell out: this is a collective ownership by citizens of the county. She usurped part of it.

Now here is further where your thinking really is just all about 'you' as you can't return a book that has been destroyed in a fire.

She can pay a fine or reimburse the cost or do other corrective measure.

Your argument all breaks down to a selfish

If she didn't return books and didn't deem necessary to rectify the situation, who's being selfish??

You are one inch of stating that if someone can't use toilet paper in a proper way and they stink, it's a result of war against the poor.

Originally posted by abecedarian

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
...
This woman's fines in part are simply being levied to pay obligations incurred by the State's which our corporations to the investors in that corporation.
...

And her neighbors were in no way inconvenienced by the loss of these books? They weren't available for anyone else to use.
...the library wasn't inconvenienced? If they did an inter-branch book transfer or otherwise replaced the books money was spent to accomodate that.

There's what her fees are for.

You can't run around complaining about the government owes us something because we pay for it then ask for the individual's forgiveness and absolution when the individuals can't hold up their end of the contract.

I take that back... you and so many others can. Now there's a double standard for you.
When the people do it, they're entitled; when the government does it, it's rape.

edit on 12/8/2010 by abecedarian because: (no reason given)

Once again your arguments are based on so many ill concieved assumptions. Do you know if the fire was a fault of the woman or perhaps the city's own gas main?

You don't of course. While you neglect that this so called 'theft' was due to an accident that resulted in far more significant damages to the woman, that she still might be economically recovering from. If she was a renter, she did not necessarily have renters insurance few people do.

She might still be economically recovering from this fire? Do you care? No, you are more worried about how her 'neighbors' might have suffered from the tragedy.

Ignorance is the hardest objection to overcome and your arguments are all about creating objections out of presumptions that you have absolutely no research or first hand knowledge to back up.

This means you are in fact arguing out of pure hubris and ego, and simply want to be right for the sake of being percieved right, as opposed to actually being right.

By employing the same kind of blind absolutes our own legal system does, you simply aide it in it's abuses against the citizen.

Further if you really want to imagine your taxes are paying for these services, then they are in fact acting as a form of insurance to make sure that things lost due to such things as an accidental fire are replaced.

Your thinking is simply based on parroting what the state tells you to think, which in fact once upon a time was not considered American to simply parrot what the state declares.

You want to advocate the punishment of a poor woman suffering tragedy for some perverse pound of flesh you imagine is due as a result. That's truly shameful.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again your arguments are based on so many ill concieved assumptions. Do you know if the fire was a fault of the woman or perhaps the city's own gas main?

You don't of course.

But neither do you. If she had a point, she could have spoken to the judge. It's funny that a person whose circumstances you don't really know yourself, all of a sudden is a sacred cow exempt from normal responsibilities of an adult.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again your arguments are based on so many ill concieved assumptions. Do you know if the fire was a fault of the woman or perhaps the city's own gas main?

You don't of course.

But neither do you. If she had a point, she could have spoken to the judge. It's funny that a person whose circumstances you don't really know yourself, all of a sudden is a sacred cow exempt from normal responsibilities of an adult.

No I do not know all the details as they pertain to this woman, I am simply giving her, that constitutional privelege you will not of being "innocent until proven guilty".

Yet more importantly I am concered about a runaway system of free range slavery where people are taxed to excess and then fined to excess and then risk incarceration if they can not pay these fines for what ever reason they are unable to pay them.

It's a dangerous totaltarian system that is far more of a threat than you not having a "Nancy Drew" book to check out at your local library.

You clearly are only interested in yourself in how you imagine you are a some kind of victim to this woman's tragedy.

She lost her home along with the books in house fire, you have no idea what struggles she might be currently facing, and all you keep doing is crying she should have done this, she should have done that, and that it serves her right to be sitting in jail as a result of a tragedy and having the stupidity to avail herself of a so called state service.

Well let me tell you, it's not much of a service, when using it can land you in jail.

I wish some people would learn to think outside of the narrow little box the government teaches them too with these 'books'.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTravelerNo I do not know all the details as they pertain to this woman, I am simply giving her, that constitutional privelege you will not of being "innocent until proven guilty".

What's there to prove? She's already admitted to having had the books and admitted they were burned in a fire at her home. Not sure about your ethics but when you borrow something with a pledge to return it after a specified period of time, agree to monetary compensation should said something be returned late and agree to compensate for the loss of such items if necessary, and have paperwork saying the books were burned in your home, again, what's to prove? She assumed responsibility for the books, they were burnt on her property, thus its her problem and her negligence to rectify the situation is her fault.

I wish some people would learn to think outside of the narrow little box the government teaches them too with these 'books'.

Some of those 'books' in that collective's library are likely law books. You're free to exit your box and go read them and learn of their laws and customs when dealing with books let on loan.

reply to post by abecedarian


These are where your assumptions fail you again. These are not laws these are statutes and codes.

All of which are illegal under the constitution. In fact if you did some study on the law, you would realize this.

In fact if I was in the woman's position, I could and would successfully convince the state's attorney to pay me a fee for the attempt to pass corporate codes off as constitutional laws, and I have in the past routinely collected a fee from the state and or county/city, when they attempt to penalize me with code violations because I do in fact know the law, the real law.

The State itself is a corporate enterprise and this can be proven. The Constitution itself is a will bequething you with certain things for the posterity of the Founding Fathers. The State when so ordered becomes an executor of that will.

This nation is rich in mineral resources and raw materials that the State itself makes a small fortune off of. In reality not only should we not be taxed, we should be paid a dividend.

Instead however, principles of the state colluded to disenfranchise us a long time ago, to attach these resources to loans and bonds that encumbered them to corporate interests, who collect in perpituity profits for our labor and resources as a result, pay little to no tax back to the state, and use the state as a collection agent and cadre of henchmen to make us offset the corporations costs in extracting, managing and selling these resources, for maximum profit.

Because I know this and the law, the happiest day in proto's life is when he gets a code violation because I can absolutely get the state to pay for it's attempt to break the consitution every time it does.

So you know there are only three constitutionally legal laws in the United States.

1. You can not kill anyone in cold blood.
2. You can not committ treason.
3. You can not steal, stealing though is a debtor issue where the person or company you stole from becomes your creditor if you are guilty of the crime. It is impossible to pay that creditor while in jail.

We did away with debtor's prison, so this woman who is being jailed on account of a debt, has had her constitutional rights violated, and is in fact due compensation if there were honest attorneys who were not officers of the same court trying to extort her, that would address this issue.

This is why I took it upon myself to learn the real laws and hidden laws of the State, Country and World, and this woman in fact is a victim of the State breaking the law in it's actions against her.

If you cared about personal freedom and dignity you might better understand that, but instead you are simply indoctrinated into a world, where you believe the state has and should have all right, and that anyone who offends the state is likewise offending you, even though the state which has stolen trillions of dollars from the citizens, and lied to them and kept us in the dark about it's corporate roots, and financial obligations and to whom they are due and payable to and for what has been defrauding you your whole life and your ancestors a whole lot longer.

Nay, my friend, it is not I who suffers from ignorance in these matters, or a lack of common sense, compassion or wisdom, of that you may rest most assured.

This woman is a victim, and to see her as anything else, is a crime against humanity.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


So where in the Constitution are those 3 laws of yours enumerated?
Which parts of the Constitution are considered legally binding?

She had over $200 worth of books out, not $10. This is the retail price of the books. It is not in "fines" at all. If you steal $200 from any retail store, you go to jail if caught. Why is this any different? She SAYS they were burned, but obviously she didn't take care of the matter. Most libraries have a waiver for this sort of incident, but you at least have to make the effort to resolve it.

George Washington does not "owe" $24,000 in fines for overdue material. All libraries in the country have a limit, per book, that fines do not exceed. Usually this is just a few dollars.

If I came to your house and we agreed that I would borrow $200 worth of books from you for three weeks, and I simply did not return them, what would you do? Would you just let that go? If they DID burn in a fire, would you then forgive that loss just because? If she had custody of your property, is she not responsible for its safety?

The fact is this woman has a history of not taking care of business. She did not when the books were 'lost' and when the court requested her opresence, she contunued the same pattern of not taking care of business. I'm glad she is being hassled over this. She deserves it.

Originally posted by abecedarian
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

So where in the Constitution are those 3 laws of yours enumerated?
Which parts of the Constitution are considered legally binding?

edit on 12/8/2010 by abecedarian because: (no reason given)

Please do feel free to visit a public library and conduct some research on that!''

While you are at it, research the original 13th amendment to the constitution quietly discarded during reconstruction and then the 14th amendment that made every citizen a corporate fiction and property of the state, then research the Interstate Commerce Clause, and the United States Census sent to you by the Department of Commerce, and basic Contract Law, and you will begin to have a basic understanding of how the simple laws and principles at our founding were compromised through debt to foreign corporate interests, that led to a massive default that led to the civil war and a defacto military government ruling us ever since, check with anyone who serves in the military and ask them about the military government zones that the United States is carved into, and begin to understand that women losing library books in a fire really ought to be the least of your worries.

Move on from there to research the 1st and 2nd United States Bank and the Federal Reserve Act and the Federal Reserve, and make sure to read the all important Treaty of Paris that founded the nation, and the Treaty of Ghent signed after the war of 1812, to get an idea about how enforcable our foreign obligations are, and the fact that they readily exist.

The most enslaved person is the one who imagines they are free, and it's entirely upon you, to do your own initial research to discover the actual nature of the reality that has you railing at poor women who lost a library book in a fire, while being taxed yourself to excess and restricted by 600,000 laws that attempt to regulate every aspect of your existence.

Trust me when I say, the only person who suffers from you not better educating yourself is you!

Thanks.

reply to post by schuyler


Really my local library has a strict limit of the books you can borrow at one time, assuming that they were all hardcover books at a average Barnes and Noble price of 19.95 she would have had to borrow 11 books.

Nor are you listing any source that this is the retail cost of the books.

Nor does the article even declare how much she does owe, and an actuall accounting for that, how many books, their titles, what their actual cost was or the fines.

My local library system Miami-Dade County Florida has a 3 book limit, which would require each book be valued at 65.00 which is highly doubtful.

Further my local library system has fines when a book is not returned. There is a standard fine assessed when the book is not returned on time, and then that fine accrues from there based on the length it is out.

Washington in fact owes 4500.00 some odd dollars as referenced by the CNN article I later posted as a reference to this.

This is on Two Books, both books are named in this article.

In the article we are working with here we have absolutely no accounting of the books, the number of them, their titles so we could independently verify their retail value, nor do we know what procurement arrangements the local library involved has, if they are overpaying for books through a sweetheart deal with a specified vendor that they are mandated to use, or if they have a discount through a vendor, or if these books were donated by a citizen.

I often donate my old books to the local library to keep from cluttering up my tidy little home.

The rush to assumptions to condemn this woman off of so little information and so few sources is rather tragic considering her innocense is presumed constitutionally until guilt is proven.

The fact that many of the details regarding this story were not reported either suggest bad journalism or deception and malfeasance on part of the prosecuting body and very likely both.

I was hoping that since you're so well versed and all that you could answer the questions rather than point me off on my own way. See, that way I can read what you say and cross reference the Constitution, Supreme Court decisions, etc... search up all the sites on strawman arguments and such, find the Supreme Court decisions invalidating that defense and so on and so forth.
I can see now that you won't do that. Can't blame you for it.
I wouldn't want to be sued for improper legal counsel either.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The fact that many of the details regarding this story were not reported either suggest bad journalism or deception and malfeasance on part of the prosecuting body and very likely both.

edit on 8/12/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: spelling

As she owes over 200, and Baytown's Sterling Municipal Library charges 10 cents per day late fee, per book... and 365 days in a year... one year would be 36.50... 200 / 36.50 = that would be about 5.5 years for one book. The original article, not your AOL link says "more than $200". Maybe it was 3 books 2 years past due, 6 books one year past due... and maybe they stopped charging late fees when her house burnt... yeah, we don't know but she has admitted it and spent 1 week in jail- Nov. 24- Dec.2. We don't know if she was assessed a fine or forgiven, do we?

So go find the information, as it is your thread, and post back so we can have a fact filled discussion rather than conjecture on your part.

reply to post by abecedarian


Actually no that's not the case, in fact I have authored many threads on ATS that detail these things, and you can look at my thread history to get a general idea, if in fact you want to get a general idea.

What I am not going to do is to look up a bunch of links to provide someone who is inclined just to dismiss them for the sake of some silly argument they are trying to make.

I do then generally appreciate and understand that those who conduct their own research see a greater value in it, since it's self evidenced by themselves and they have taken the time and intiative to do that.

In fact my signature thread here on ATS now in it's 8th month and generating 2 plus pages of posts every day, is chalked full of members who continue to do incredible research on the legal and banking history of our nation and the world, and is a wonderful resource in and of itself.

What I have done is pointed you in the right direction to start researching these things, which I myself and many others on the site have been researching for years, not minutes, and researching because we have a genuine desire to know and understand.

So the choice is yours, if you are truly happy with this system, and feel it serves you as good as it could possibly get, then by all means, ignore your own personal responsibility in fully understanding the nature of the world you are bound into and on.

If you aren't, and would rather pick on someone bigger than you, like the corrupt politicians, banks, and sovereigns instead of a poor woman victimized first by a fire and then the state, then well, you are on a site with limitless possibilities to learn how to do that.

Doesn't get any simpler than that, complicate it to your own detriment.

Thanks!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I forgot for a moment this was a conspiracy site.

But if what you say is true I'd think you be tumbling over yourself to help the uninitiated gain enlightenment even if it is only for one more lost soul. But I have read some of your threads and such and... well it's interesting but seems inconclusive.

reply to post by abecedarian


If she spent one week in jail it would be time served, and that time served would be in liue of the fine.

Most municipalities award around 100.00 per day in jail towards fines, so chances are her fine was around 700.00 dollars including court costs which for many code violations can be up to 280.00 dollars.

So she probably owed about 400 on the books and had about 300 court costs.

This to me is an excessive punishment on library books, and that's the point of the thread, excessive punishment by municipalities to enrich themselves off of code violations.

This is a matter of differing opinion as we can see reading through the thread, some of us insist this is excessive and a gross abuse by the state and of the law, and a few people believe this to be somehow just for some bizarre reason.

The fact that you want to convince me that it's just kind of puts the burden of proving it just on you.

I personally don't care if you consider it just, I am stating my well founded opinion that it is unjust.

See how that works, or does it have to spelled out in a code complete with penalties by the state for you to consider something?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by abecedarian

 

If she spent one week in jail it would be time served, and that time served would be in liue of the fine.

Most municipalities award around 100.00 per day in jail towards fines, so chances are her fine was around 700.00 dollars including court costs which for many code violations can be up to 280.00 dollars.

So she probably owed about 400 on the books and had about 300 court costs.

This to me is an excessive punishment on library books, and that's the point of the thread, excessive punishment by municipalities to enrich themselves off of code violations.
...

How did they enrich themselves off her books if, as you put it, "...it would be time served, and that time served would be in lieu of the fine", and money was also wasted on the court proceedings?
And how is it excessive punishment since she violated the contract she agreed to?

Nevermind; it's time to agree to disagree on this topic.
But I am still interested in reading your other musings.