God........Why have you forsaken me?

Why did Jesus say that?
Was Jesus deceived?
Was Jesus betrayed by God?
Was he expecting something else to happen?
Did Jesus lose his faith at the last minute, did he think god was suppose to come and help him in some kind of way?

reply to post by Immortalgemini527


noone really knows what jesus said ..... certainly not in a film production anyway.

Probably because Jesus did not expect that pain and torture he was put through as he was human just like us. He probably wanted God to help him out and was mad he didn't as he was helpless. Can you could imagine how mad you would be if God was your father and he didn't help you out, as you are getting beaten and crucified?

He wasn't asking God why he had forsaken him. The quote is actually from Psalms 22:1 which was Jesus pointing out that he had fulfilled the Scripture.

Check out some of the other "virgin born / savior / crucifixion" stories that this one is based on. They might offer more clues.

Here's a start: A quote from www.infidels.org...

More than twenty claims of this kind -- claims of beings invested with divine honor (deified) -- have come forward and presented themselves at the bar of the world with their credentials, to contest the verdict of Christendom, in having proclaimed Jesus Christ, "the only son, and sent of God:" twenty Messiahs, Saviors, and Sons of God, according to history or tradition, have, in past times, descended from heaven, and taken upon themselves the form of men, clothing themselves with human flesh, and furnishing incontestable evidence of a divine origin, by various miracles, marvelous works, and superlative virtues; and finally these twenty Jesus Christs (accepting their character for the name) laid the foundation for the salvation of the world, and ascended back to heaven.

1. Chrishna of Hindostan.
2. Budha Sakia of India.
3. Salivahana of Bermuda.
4. Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.
5. Odin of the Scaudinavians.
6. Crite of Chaldea.
7. Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.
8. Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.
9. Indra of Thibet.
10. Bali of Afghanistan.
11. Jao of Nepaul.
12. Wittoba of the Bilingonese.
13. Thammuz of Syria.
14. Atys of Phrygia.
15. Xaniolxis of Thrace.
16. Zoar of the Bonzes.
17. Adad of Assyria.
18. Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.
19. Alcides of Thebes.
20. Mikado of the Sintoos.
21. Beddru of Japan.
22. Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.
23. Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.
24. Cadmus of Greece.
25. Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.
26. Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.
27. Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.
28. Ischy of the Island of Formosa.
29. Divine Teacher of Plato.
30. Holy One of Xaca.
31. Fohi and Tien of China.
32. Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.
33. IxiOn and Quirinus of Rome.
34. Prometheus of Caucasus.
35. Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.

These have all received divine honors, have nearly all been worshiped as Gods, or sons of God; were mostly incarnated as Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, or Mediators; not a few of them were reputedly born of virgins; some of them filling a character almost identical with that ascribed by the Christian's bible to Jesus Christ; many of them, like him, are reported to have been crucified; and all of them, taken together, furnish a prototype and parallel for nearly every important incident and wonder-inciting miracle, doctrine and precept recorded in the New Testament, of the Christian's Savior. Surely, with so many Saviors the world cannot, or should not, be lost.

reply to post by Immortalgemini527
Immortalgemini527,

When we die there is a short time we will experience what He went through and who will we cry out to if we do all depends. But some think those in Him will find it not grevious, we'll have to find out won't we.

Truthiron.

Originally posted by sykickvision
Check out some of the other "virgin born / savior / crucifixion" stories that this one is based on. They might offer more clues.

Here's a start: A quote from www.infidels.org...

Did you even read the page that you're citing? That nitwit was long ago debunked, they even admit it on that page! Though I guess they leave it up for chumps like you to fall for.

Note: the scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous theists and nontheists alike; the inclusion of his The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book. (from www.infidels.org...

As for the OP, I once worked through the notion that, at that particular moment, the divine Christ left the mortal Jesus, since God is eternal and cannot die. So that was the first moment that Jesus, the mortal, was apart from his Father. However, on reflection, that didn't really work out.

kite74 has it, though -- Christ was quoting the Psalms, in fulfillment of Scripture.

Originally posted by Immortalgemini527

Why did Jesus say that?
Was Jesus deceived?
Was Jesus betrayed by God?
Was he expecting something else to happen?
Did Jesus lose his faith at the last minute, did he think god was suppose to come and help him in some kind of way?

edit on 7-12-2010 by Gemwolf because: Removed all caps title

edit on 7-12-2010 by Immortalgemini527 because: (no reason given)

How about it's most probably what Mathew though he was thinking.

You see, in such a condition a person would not be speaking. They are suffocating due to the potion of being hung on a cross where the body's weight is pulling between the diaphragms and the lung cavities. They need to push together in order to ventilate air in and out. The person has to lift up on the cross against the nails tearing into the flesh with each breath, and their lungs are also drowning in blood causing them to cough continuously to clear the airway of enough blood so they can take another breath. Okay, they are not going to be able to be saying anything. Even if they could mumble all the people would be too far away to hear anything, and that's the most that Jesus would be able to do at that point given extra ordinary circumstances which would be require for him to do so.

1. Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).
2. Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
3. Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (John 19:26-27).
4. My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?, (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34).
5. I thirst (John 19:28).
6. It is finished (John 19:30).
7. Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (Luke 23:46).

I'll say 12&3 there is a chance he said those things.Those were said earlier in the day. Within hours he would be in no condition to be able to talk. All he is trying to do is breath. So 456&7 I'm thinking those were speculative thoughts the disciples who wrote those quotes had about what Jesus might me thinking.

Originally posted by kite74
He wasn't asking God why he had forsaken him. The quote is actually from Psalms 22:1 which was Jesus pointing out that he had fulfilled the Scripture.

True, and it was probably the inspiration for Mathew's speculations for what Jesus might say if he was able to talk.

As stated before...Jesus was quoting the 22nd Psalm....

Just as if I said..."Mary had a little lamb.." or "twas the night before Christmas..." or "Oh say can you see, by the dawn's early...." you would know what comes next...and the context in which each of these statements apply.

Likewise, Jesus quoted the 22nd Psalm...in which the crucifixion is played out...even down to the people mocking him, gambling at his feet for his robe, and even where none of his leg bones were broken...which was common during crucifixion to bring on suffocation as the legs were used to push up and down and inturn move the diaphram in order to breath.

The people there would have been educated in the scriptures, and thus put 2 and 2 together...seeing the scriptures fulfilled before their very eyes.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
As stated before...Jesus was quoting the 22nd Psalm....

Just as if I said..."Mary had a little lamb.." or "twas the night before Christmas..." or "Oh say can you see, by the dawn's early...." you would know what comes next...and the context in which each of these statements apply.

Likewise, Jesus quoted the 22nd Psalm...in which the crucifixion is played out...even down to the people mocking him, gambling at his feet for his robe, and even where none of his leg bones were broken...which was common during crucifixion to bring on suffocation as the legs were used to push up and down and inturn move the diaphram in order to breath.

The people there would have been educated in the scriptures, and thus put 2 and 2 together...seeing the scriptures fulfilled before their very eyes.

They wasnt that educated to know that.

There is another movie about the Crucifixion of Christ.
It's called The Last Temptation of Christ. I think the temptation
in this movie refers to the possibility of Jesus taking to heart
what the crowd were saying, and to think that he would be
somehow saved before having to go through the whole thing,
to the point of death. That inclination to fall under the sway of
a similar argument like the Devil had done earlier would have
been greater because in the earlier temptation Jesus was
experiencing the in-flooding of God's spirit, and in this later
case he was experiencing the withdrawal of that spirit.

reply to post by Immortalgemini527


"They wasnt that educated to know that.".... your words say so much more than I ever could.

Actually, the people surrounding Jesus there were well educated... Joseph of arimathea, some of the sadducees and pharisees, some of the Jewish social elite, even many of his disciples were educated...Matthew was a tax collector, Luke was a physician, even Judas was an accountant... his mother, Mary, was descended from levite priests...she was educated....

as such, I disagree with your "They wasnt that educated" statement.

Originally posted by AlreadyGone
reply to post by Immortalgemini527

 

"They wasnt that educated to know that.".... your words say so much more than I ever could.

Actually, the people surrounding Jesus there were well educated... Joseph of arimathea, some of the sadducees and pharisees, some of the Jewish social elite, even many of his disciples were educated...Matthew was a tax collector, Luke was a physician, even Judas was an accountant... his mother, Mary, was descended from levite priests...she was educated....

as such, I disagree with your "They wasnt that educated" statement.

The people there would have been educated in the scriptures, and thus put 2 and 2 together...seeing the scriptures fulfilled before their very eyes.

You said 'the people' ,you wasn’t specific, on the religion and story line of how the Babylonians gave the pagan worshippers a religion .

especially in a culture where you are not considered an adult until your Bar Mitzvah....where you publicly read scripture out loud.

For people interested in the mystical value of numbers, the 22nd psalm would be automatically important, since there are 22 letters in the Hebrew alephbet.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft
Do you think that the books were divided up in the same way they are today, back in Jesus' day?
Just wondering. I suppose there are no actual copies from then laying about to look at.

reply to post by jmdewey60


We have the dead sea scrolls, which were finished by 200 BC.

The psalm have always been individual units. While different manuscripts have some of them in a slightly different order, the Psalm quoted as 22 in this thread is # 22 in the Masoretic text (the rabbinic one used in synagogues), the Septuagint (first translation of the Hebrew scriptures into another language--Greek), and the Dead Sea scrolls. So that particular Psalm happens to be the same in all those major traditions.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft
OK, thanks for the info.
I do not have a copy of the Masoretic and that is on my short list
of future book purchases.
So, by what you are citing, there may be a numerological significance.
What would the significance be?
The idea of "it being finished"?

reply to post by jmdewey60


You might look at what is called a "Tanakh." This is all of the Hebrew Scriptures of the first order, made up of the 'Torah,' the first five books, plus the 'Nevi'im' (prophets) and Khethuviim (writings, mostly history). The JPS, Jewish Publication Society, sells English as well as Hebrew/English translations.

You might benefit more from "The Five Books of Moses" by Everett Fox. It is English only, but it is a very literal translation, word-for-word translation of the Hebrew.

22
Twenty Two is sometimes said to have the meaning of "Breaking Apart, Destruction"

It is a semi-prime, being the product of 2 x 11. Eleven is 1 added to 10 (perfect order), or else 1 less than 12 (governmental perfection). So 11 = chaos, disorder, subversion. Two meanwhile, is the number of opposition.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft
Oops, now I feel stupid.
I already have the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia.
I forgot I already started reading it but was really just using it
as a reference. It seems I haven't looked at it for a while.
I also have A New English Translation of the Septuagint.
Those are like you said.
What I do not have in my library is the Septuagint in Greek.
I do have the Greek New Testament.