The desperation of imploding christianity

Re Catwhoknows

You wrote:

"Forget bibles, forget churches and follow Jesus - love, forgive, do not harm, nurture = what humans need.

And be tolerant"

Amen to that. But what DO humans need, and even more important, who decides on the answer?

reply to post by bogomil


Hi bog,

YOU decide what is happening in your own head.

YOU decide what is happening in your own heart.

Re Cat

You wrote:

"YOU decide what is happening in your own head.

YOU decide what is happening in your own heart."


I hear you and agree with this half answer. The other missing half is, that mankind sadly enough isn't quite adult yet and needs traffic regulations (at least according to my observations as an enthusiastic biker).

And where there are regulations, there are also always somebody who want to use the idea of regulations per se as a backdoor for whatever shady aims they have. Be it the 'necessity' of holiness or that one man expressing the compressed will of the proletariat.

Originally posted by bogomil


To a very high degree because a fascist Christianity slaughtered them.

Hardly. At the onset of Christianity it faced extreme persecution from the Jews. After that, the Romans. So for the first 300 years from the first century to the 4th Christians were in hiding or running for their lives. Then during the Reformation Christians were greatly persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. Over 1 million Christians were slaughtered by the Catholics.

In the 20th century Christians have been greatly persecuted by Muslims, Hindus and Atheist states such as the USSR, China, North Korea. Currently as of 2010 it is estimated that 100 million Christians per year face some form of persecution yearly and 160,000 per year are martyred for faith in Christ.

Persecution of Christians ~ Wikipedia

Don't get carried away by your propagandistic zeal to the extent, that you start fabulating and falsifying.

Sorry to burst your anti-Christian bubble again. Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the history of mankind. Why are you digging your heels in and fighting this information so passionately? You should be gleefully reveling in the dark past of Apostolic Christianity and the intense suffering and bloodshed it has endured for proclaiming Christ.

reply to post by bogomil

The same John the baptist, whose followers called Jesus a 'deciever messiah'?

(Being to busy with being a prophet yourself, you never took up this link outside your own holy bubble).

since when are "decievers" invisibly audible as written and in the Fathers business of saving lives- a house divided cannot stand correct? let's see some back up to the accusation as in a source other than your own words preferably scriptural related if not themselves directly if possible (not that it makes me any difference personally but..) and why would you say "prophet yourself"- there's only one "own holy bubble" I'm seeing here being that Christ came to save sinners I assume you consider yourself sinless?

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.-1John

this John?

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.-John1

Re NoturTypical

Our recent starting-point:

You: "If your statement is true why did most of all the ancient religions die out that also were preached to the same 'ignorant masses' and who also promised 'everlasting euphoria'?"

Me: "To a very high degree because a fascist christianity slaughtered them."

Your latest bid:

"Hardly. At the onset of Christianity it faced extreme persecution from the Jews. After that, the Romans. So for the first 300 years from the first century to the 4th Christians were in hiding or running for their lives."

And that has what to do with your fabulations about 'all ancient religions dying out'?

Quote.

"Then during the Reformation Christians were greatly persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. Over 1 million Christians were slaughtered by the Catholics."

You conveniently forgot the period from the 4th century to the emergence of liberal societies, a period where the christianities really showed their true colours.

Just from academic curiousity: Are catholics not christians?

Quote:

"Currently as of 2010 it is estimated that 100 million Christians per year face some form of persecution yearly and 160,000 per year are martyred for faith in Christ"

From time to time you present 'estimations' based on strongly pro-christian sources, which don't try to give any validations for what appears to be plain propaganda.

Quote:

"Sorry to burst your anti-Christian bubble again."

You mean: "That if I'm not for you, I'm against you". I have no interest in your tactics of enforcing all positions into your black/white world. I'm proliberal, and not especially anti-christian, except when it manifests in its fascistic fringe.

Quote:

"Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the history of mankind."

Three perspectives:

1/ Christianity is the most persecutING religion in the history of mankind.

2/ It still fights islam for world-domination, and it's in that conflict most christians are 'persecuted'. It's none of my concern or responsibility, if two aggressors hurt each other in their insane confrontations, except when non-participants are involved.

which leads to

3/ With a few exceptitions (as when other extremists attack christians) the most 'persecution' christian extremists are exposed to in liberal society is: "Bugger off, and take your insanities somewhere else".

Quote:

"Why are you digging your heels in and fighting this information so passionately?"

Christian have certain rights, but NOT FURTHER. I don't want to live in a theocracy, so when christian extremists constantly try to overstep the limits of liberal society, I help to say 'no more'.

Quote:

"You should be gleefully reveling in the dark past of Apostolic Christianity ...."

Why? If different gangs of fanatics kill each other for idiotic reasons (a black stone, an imaginary existential debt, mayan bloodthirsty 'gods' or Kali) it's just revolting, or at best pityful.

Quote:

".......and the intense suffering and bloodshed it has endured for proclaiming Christ."

And the grand finale: "Glory be, we spread the only truth, no matter the price to us or our targets. We are martyrs and heros on white horses"

Re Rustami

You wrote:

"since when are "decievers" invisibly audible as written and in the Fathers business of saving lives- a house divided cannot stand correct?"

What does that mean?

Quote:

"let's see some back up to the accusation as in a source other than your own words......"

It's not an 'accusation' and not 'my (bogo's) own words'. It's a citation from John the baptist's followers about Jesus as a 'deciever messiah'. I have already once sent you references, which you ofocurse ignored, as they don't fit into your bubble's arrangement.

Quote:

"......preferably scriptural"

I don't share your doctrines. Request denied.

Quote:

"and why would you say "prophet yourself"- there's only one "own holy bubble" I'm seeing here being that Christ came to save sinners "

In 34.000 different interpretations with each its own prophets. But ofcourse YOUR version is the right one.

Quote:

"I assume you consider yourself sinless?"

A double-bind. Try again.

Quote:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.-1John"

If we quote from 1.700 year old propaganda texts, we try decieve everybody, and we are idiots. Bogomil 2:1


For the rest. Save your sermons for someone who appreciate them. You citing to me from a book I consider nonsense is meaningless, and only accentuates the 'desperation of an imploding christianity'.

Originally posted by bogomil

And that has what to do with your fabulations about 'all ancient religions dying out'?

Perhaps you might want to look at the TOS for "excessive quoting". But anyways, I'm not going to do your homework for you, but where you should start is with the prevalent religions at the time of Christ.

Virtually all of them are now considered "dead". My point remains.

You conveniently forgot the period from the 4th century to the emergence of liberal societies, a period where the christianities really showed their true colours.

I certainly brought up the inquisitions and the crusades, however I'd lay those charges at the feet of Rome and the popes. And the Christians faced the greatest persecution under the popes with over 1 million slaughtered.

Just from academic curiousity: Are catholics not christians?

Depends who you ask and by what measuring rod you use. I don't see how it pertains to this thread, you could always use the "search" feature if interested.

From time to time you present 'estimations' based on strongly pro-christian sources, which don't try to give any validations for what appears to be plain propaganda.

Of course! Anything that goes against your bigoted ramblings is "propaganda". It's a source..

where is YOUR'S in rebuttal????

You mean: "That if I'm not for you, I'm against you". I have no interest in your tactics of enforcing all positions into your black/white world. I'm proliberal, and not especially anti-christian, except when it manifests in its fascistic fringe.

Yeah, we've already went through this. If I want to be accepted and spoken positively of I need to be an apostate Christian, never try to share Christ with anyone, and never present sourced information only arbitrary opinions like you love to do.

Gotcha.

Three arbitrary perspectives:

Fixed.

1/ Christianity is the most persecutING religion in the history of mankind.

1. Christ warned to "beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing", and also "by their fruits you shall know them." I for one believe fully that Christ was telling the truth when He stated to be on guard for those professing to be Christians but were not, who by their own actions would show their true allegiance and colors.

2. (Argumentum ad nauseum): Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, hence the term "CHRISTian". please show me 3 verses that Christ or any apostles condones murder or persecution. In hermeneutics no doctrine can be made unless there are 3 verses proclaiming it. I can only recal Christ teaching to love one's neighbor, bless one's enemies, and to love as He loved.

2/ It still fights islam for world-domination, and it's in that conflict most christians are 'persecuted'. It's none of my concern or responsibility, if two aggressors hurt each other in their insane confrontations, except when non-participants are involved.

Christians are not 'at war' with Muslims. If by 'at war' you mean setting foot in a Muslim nation and sharing Christ then that's not 'war'. Christ said He was sending us out as "sheep to the slaughter", which is exactly what's transpired since His death and resurrection. Christians at the end of intense slaughter for His name sake.

3/ With a few exceptitions (as when other extremists attack christians) the most 'persecution' christian extremists are exposed to in liberal society is: "Bugger off, and take your insanities somewhere else".

That's not persecution. That's reason for joy:

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before you." ~ Jesus

Christian have certain rights, but NOT FURTHER. I don't want to live in a theocracy, so when christian extremists constantly try to overstep the limits of liberal society, I help to say 'no more'.

Again you seem to condemn the "Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology" heretical movement. I've stated numerous times I won't argue with you there. It's a heresy.

And the grand finale: "Glory be, we spread the only truth, no matter the price to us or our targets. We are martyrs and heros on white horses"

Certainly not 'heroes', Christ is the only hero in this unfolding story. More like:

"Just one beggar showing another beggar where to find bread."

Re NoturTypical

You wrote:

"But anyways, I'm not going to do your homework for you, ........."

Doing your own would be sufficient.

Quote:

".......but where you should start is with the prevalent religions at the time of Christ.

Virtually all of them are now considered "dead". My point remains."

Buddhism ...dead? When did that happen?

Quote:


"I certainly brought up the inquisitions and the crusades, however I'd lay those charges at the feet of Rome and the popes. And the Christians faced the greatest persecution under the popes with over 1 million slaughtered."

It didn't stop in the protestant countries.

My question: Are catholics not christians?

Your answer:

"Depends who you ask and by what measuring rod you use."

I was asking you.

Quote:

"Of course! Anything that goes against your bigoted ramblings is "propaganda". It's a source.."

Sources need validation also.

Quote (directed at my argumentation)

"Gotcha.... Three arbitrary perspectives.....Fixed."

and proved by following.

"1. Christ warned to "beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing", and also "by their fruits you shall know them." I for one believe fully that Christ was telling the truth when He stated to be on guard for those professing to be Christians but were not, who by their own actions would show their true allegiance and colors.

2. (Argumentum ad nauseum): Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, hence the term "CHRISTian". please show me 3 verses that Christ or any apostles condones murder or persecution. In hermeneutics no doctrine can be made unless there are 3 verses proclaiming it. I can only recal Christ teaching to love one's neighbor, bless one's enemies, and to love as He loved."

Sad that the protestants living so many centuries after NT was written didn't know that.

Quote:

"Christians are not 'at war' with Muslims."

Well, if you say so...but it certainly looks that way.

Quote:

"If by 'at war' you mean setting foot in a Muslim nation and sharing Christ then that's not 'war'."

Did anybody invite them for missionary purposes. Only asking because christian missionaries seldom bother with that kind of formalities.

Quote:
"Christ said He was sending us out as "sheep to the slaughter", which is exactly what's transpired since His death and resurrection. Christians at the end of intense slaughter for His name sake."

Anybody asked you to do this, or are you just doing it 'for everybody's own good'. I prefer to define my own good.

Example from my post: "Bugger off, and take your insanities somewhere else".


Your answer: "That's not persecution. That's reason for joy:"

So what are you whining about. I actually bring you joy with my opposition.

Quote:

"Again you seem to condemn the "Kingdom Now/Dominion Theology" heretical movement. I've stated numerous times I won't argue with you there. It's a heresy."

It's not easy to keep track of your heresies, but though being rather uninterested in inter-christian doctrinal schisms, I will repeat a former question to you: "Why ARE you here on ATS?". Wandering from thread to thread, delievering your version of 'glory be' and off'ing without anyone really understanding your presence

Originally posted by bogomil

Doing your own would be sufficient.

Ahhh, how cute.

And irrelevant. You've demonstrated ignorance to the topic, not I.

Buddhism ...dead? When did that happen?

LOL, your favorite fallacy.

Using the exception to define the rule.

I was asking you.

No, they are Catholic, why they're called "Catholics". Catholics practice Catholicism. Their religion is works-based with sacraments required for salvation. A million of my brothers and sisters in Christ were murdered by the Catholics because they held the biblical view of baptism. (That unbelievers should not be baptized)

Sources need validation also.

Still waiting on yours in rebuttal.

Sad that the protestants living so many centuries after NT was written didn't know that.

I'm protestant, I just posted it didn't I?

Well, if you say so...but it certainly looks that way.

Get your eyes checked then. If a battle of ideas is warfare then you yourself are going to war.

Did anybody invite them for missionary purposes. Only asking because christian missionaries seldom bother with that kind of formalities.

Red herring. My point remains, setting foot in a Muslim nation to share Christ isn't engaging in combat commonly known as war.

Anybody asked you to do this, or are you just doing it 'for everybody's own good'. I prefer to define my own good.

Yes, Christ. Did you figure out that Christians follow Christ?

So what are you whining about. I actually bring you joy with my opposition.

Certainly not "whining". You're the one that feels the urge to challenge me in every forum I enter discussion on. And even reply to my posts line by line that aren't even addressing you. It's cute having one's own personal troll though.

It's not easy to keep track of your heresies, but though being rather uninterested in inter-christian doctrinal schisms, I will repeat a former question to you:

Says you, I've posted the same thing here numerous times. Those who teach Kingdom Now theology are heretics. They are trying to control the world with a Christian theocracy.

I suppose I could state for the 10th time I'm against the heresy. :puz

"Why ARE you here on ATS?".

Why are any of us here? To discuss/debate and participate in like-minded topical discussions.

Dumb question.

Re NOTurTypical

For the purpose of finding relevant information in the arguments, in line with the topic of this thread for or against christian missioning, propagating in pubs (these arguments hold for schools and streetcorners etc), christianity's decline (imploding christianity), and the impact of christianity on society.

Quote: 14th 01:53 PM: "If your statement is true why did most of all the ancient religions die out ...."

Quote: 15th 08:18 AM: "Over 1 million Christians were slaughtered by the Catholics." (My comment: Catholics are obviously not 'christians')

I've used Wikipedia, Adherents, Religioustolerance and Fastestgrowingreligion as comparative statistical bases for a look at the 'dying out' fabulation

Buddhism lies at a steady 6% (world population)

Hinduism lies at a steady 13-14% (w.p.)

Protestantism ranges between 5,6-9% (w.p.)

Readers can draw their own conclusions, about what's dying out or not, from this. (It must be pointed out, that the lowest number of protestants (5,6%) comes from 'Fastestgrowingreligion', a very PRO-christian site).
------

The impact of christian missioning from an abstract ideological perspective:

Quote: 15th 08.18 AM: " In the 20th century Christians have been greatly persecuted by Muslims, Hindus and Atheist states such as the USSR, China, North Korea."

Communist countries have been equally strict towards all religions. Christianity not singled out.

Quote: 16th 05:31 AM: "My point remains, setting foot in a Muslim nation to share Christ isn't engaging in combat commonly known as war."

Quote: 16th 05:31 AM: "Bogo: Anybody asked you to do this, or are you just doing it 'for everybody's own good'. I prefer to define my own good. "NOTurTypical: "Yes, Christ. Did you figure out that Christians follow Christ?"

Definition of war:

" an active struggle between competing entities; "a price war"; "a war of wits"; "diplomatic warfare" make or wage war a concerted campaign to end something that is injurious; "the war on poverty"; "the war against crime"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Definitions of fascism:

1. Oppressive, dictatorial control. (American Heritage Dictionary)

2. (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice......Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach. (Oxford Dictionary of the US Military)

3: Genuinely fascist ideologies are: monist, that is to say, based upon the notion that there are fundamental and basic truths about humanity and the environment which do not admit to question; simplistic, in the sense of ascribing complex phenomena to single causes and advancing single remedies; fundamentalist, that is, involving a division of the world into ‘good’ and ‘bad’ with nothing in between; and conspiratorial, that is, predicated on the existence of a secret world-wide conspiracy by a hostile group seeking to manipulate the masses to achieve and/or maintain a dominant position. (Oxford Dictionary of Politics).

Quite circumstantial, but you asked for references:

An invasive act, in this case propaganda, towards individuals, groups, religions or countries not asking for them, by the self-given authority of a fascist ideology is apparantly the M.O. of missionary christianity.

And yes, I'm involved in an ideological conflict concerning this, defending democracy against fascist christian theocratic tendencies, such as you propose.

You people put yourself above everything, with self-appointed privileges. Restricting you to egalitarian rules, is for you an invasion of your self-given rights, making you whine about persecution

------------

Impact of christian missioning from a de facto perspective.

The atrocious history of fascist christianity can not be brushed away by: "That was then". The same attitudes still exsist as demonstrated by various extremist christian groups and individuals.

Or by: "'Real' christians didn't do that". Christians of the major denominations have been at each others hair for two-thousand years, with all factions as aggressor.

Djin and some other extremist-christian-critics have already posted links to or presented firsthand accounts of the christian supported atrocities in African. I'm more at home with the ideology part, but obviously Africa is now becoming what Europe was, and South Americe still is partly. Homeground for the christian dream of world domination, created through blood if necessary.

It's ofcourse nice, that NOTurTypical vaguely refers to one of the 34.000 christian ideologies, which won't join this fight actively, sullying their hands with blood. But by preaching christian fascism here, you are after all co-responsible for what's happening.

No need for re-hashing more. My last post in this direction.

reply to post by texastig


They aren't, though. Atheists aren't calling for people to refute the bible in pubs.

Actually, if they pay for my beer at the pub, they can of course preach to me all they want...I won't promise to listen of course, and will probably concentrate on the hot blonde standing in the corner, but they can of course try