Wikileaks Founder Julian Assange Arrested in London

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by Pyros

 

The statute does not say "any U.S. citizen".....it states whoever.

United States law does not extend beyond its borders. Receiving stolen goods is the only charge that would extend into international jurisdiction. That is why this case is precedent setting. Whoever leaked these cables to Assange committed espionage, and if they are an American citizen could be tried accordingly. Of course, a smart lawyer could argue that these cables don't endanger the "national defense," so the prosecution would probably go for an "unauthorized use of government property" charge as being easier to prove.

Again, you are flat wrong. Just ask Manuel Noriega, Gary McKinnon, and Kalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Proving his guilt with regards to damaging national security will be easy. And the longer Manning sits in solitary confinement, the easier it will get. The ironic part is that Wikileaks will aid the prosecutions case. Why? Because they are releasing the information at a slow pace. Slow enough, in fact, that the government will be able to assess, on a cable-by-cable basis, the damage to national security as each cable hits the street. The U.S. may suffer the "death of a thousand cuts", but each cut is just another charge against Manning.

He will never see his freedom again. A pity of a wasted life.

I was on the fence about wikileaks before, but judging by the reactions they are getting, I am leaning now towards them being legit. Alot of members' true colors are shining brightly on these wikileaks threads. So many that have pretended to be angry with, and distrust the government in the past (based on the game of partisan politics), are suddenly calling for Assange's death for "treason", and even calling for action against anybody who supports wikileaks. Now that somebody may actually have real evidence that our government is indeed corrupt to the core, and does NOT work for the people, they want nothing to do with it and are lashing out in every direction. That's very eye opening for me personally.

reply to post by PsykoOps


Last time I checked, U.S. law wasn't based upon Wikipedia entries or definitions contained in Webster's dictionary........

I might be willing to give Wikipedia a pass if did not know that this information was classified. However, they have historically and actively continue to solicit the illegal submission classified information, disseminate it against the owner's laws and over the owner's rightful objections, and they do so knowing full well that there could be major ramifications that could cost money, security, and lives.

If and when Assange ends up in prison, the satisfying thing to me will be there won't be any nation willing to "swap spies" for him, like we did in the old days with the USSR. He will go unclaimed, like a left-handed glove in a Lost and Found box under the front counter..........

Well do educate me then how the US definition is any different. They have never done anything illegal with their leaks. That's just your opinion. If the major ramifications is cleaning up the dirt in governments and you have something against that then I feel for you. How it puts someones life in danger is just complete bollocks.

Originally posted by Pyros
If and when Assange ends up in prison, the satisfying thing to me will be there won't be any nation willing to "swap spies" for him, like we did in the old days with the USSR. He will go unclaimed, like a left-handed glove in a Lost and Found box under the front counter..........

You can only hope. The "satisfying thing to me" is that you and your ilk are spinning your loyal wheels worrying about a face man, while the information is still being released exactly as planned. They're not gonna stop it, and they're not gonna shut down the net either. Even if they could which I doubt, too many of their ultra rich buddies depend on it to rake in their billions. It's a catch 22 for them....

Originally posted by PsykoOps
Well do educate me then how the US definition is any different. They have never done anything illegal with their leaks. That's just your opinion.

How would you feel, then, if someone set up a web site called "PsykoOps-leaks" and posted all of your personal information on the web? All your bank account data, your arrest records (if any), bills of sale for your homes and car, tax records, employment records, etc? And then, publicly encouraged all your neighbors and friends to anonymously submit juicy tidbits about you to the site that might be embarrassing to you? Maybe your neighbors go one step further and sort through your trash when you are not home, looking for any number of illicit or naughty bits? Any maybe your maid, or carpenter, or anyone else that works for you in your home.......steals your diary and sends it to PsykoOps-leaks.....because they have an axe to grind with you, or don't like the way you part your hair, or whatever.....then what? I bet you would be pretty pissed off and look for ways to prosecute those people to protect yourself. People have an expectation of personal privacy, as they should. And there are laws to ensure this, which vary from place to place. Countries are a collection of peoples, and these "people" have a collective expectation of national privacy, for whatever reason they deem to be relevant. There is no difference.

If the major ramifications is cleaning up the dirt in governments and you have something against that then I feel for you. How it puts someones life in danger is just complete bollocks.

You only label the danger as "bollocks" because [i[you do not see the damage being done. Dirt on the United States government? I say "bollocks!" to that conclusion. There is nothing more damaging to our government and how they conduct themselves in any of those cable than any information found in the NY Times, or a good article in The Economist. It shows we keep tabs on people, what they do, and what they say. So, how does that exactly "clean up the dirt"?

The damage is still being assessed. It will take some time to complete. All the data must be released first, and then we will see. The world will never know the full extent of the damage to the U.S., as we will (hopefully) keep it private. But I guarantee that at some point, one way or another, it will become apparent.

I just hope that these morons do not release data that will get (more) people killed. Don't waste your time feeling for me. Feel for them.

reply to post by 27jd


While there might be some elements of truth to your statement, the U.S. government will eventually turn to one of their only options: punishing a perpetrator quickly and severely as to act as a deterrent to future offenders. If I'm the government, I'm gonna make the life of Wikileaks and all their supporters so damn miserable, that the cost will outweigh the benefit for any future copycats.

The U.S. government may be many things, but good and bad, but in my 25+ years of being part of it, working for it, interacting with it, and watching it, I have come to the conclusion that it is generally a bad idea to:

a) polarize the government against you and your actions
b) publicly defy the government, especially after being provided an opportunity to "play nice" well in advance
c) provide aid an assistance to our enemies, despite being asked not to

For all things in life, there is always a price to pay......

reply to post by Pyros


So, apparently you are of the opinion that these leaks shouldn't happen. You don't think it should be let known to we the people that our government is corrupt?

I agree that certain secrets should be kept secret for national security purposes but I have yet to see anything that infringes upon our security as a nation.

So, if a few people get thrown out of a window for the sake of millions and millions being told the truth and set free from government slavery then so be it, throw me out a window first.


-Alien

I don't mean to rant here, but as I was talking to my friends and family about Assange and Manning, it occurred to me that it seems the whole darn world is corrupt. I mean what the heck, Assange went too far but some stuff should be brought to light. Scandal and wrongdoing by any government should be exposed regardless of the cause. In regards to the Collateral Murder video, Isn't it a war crime to shoot a medic? I would consider that van more of a medical vehicle than a threat wouldn't you? I can understand the group that had guns, but the van with the kids in it come on. And who goes on trial? The one who calls out this wrongdoing, the on standing up for what is right. Seriously though, there should be a line drawn somewhere, names and addresses should not be released, unless they are of a guilty and corrupt group. I'd like to see what's in the insurance file myself right now, as it seems to be the only thing keeping Assange from being assasinated, and also for the fact that it uses a known government encryption protocol commonly used b the CIA and NSA. Oh, and last but not least, if you can't see that the charges made against him are complete garbage and that it's just a ploy to take him out, you are seriously naive. He has something the government knows is really bad, maybe a national security violation, but i hope it's more along the lines of revealing more people who have committed crimes and got away with it. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Alien Abduct
reply to post by Pyros

 

So, apparently you are of the opinion that these leaks shouldn't happen. You don't think it should be let known to we the people that our government is corrupt?

I agree that certain secrets should be kept secret for national security purposes but I have yet to see anything that infringes upon our security as a nation.

So, if a few people get thrown out of a window for the sake of millions and millions being told the truth and set free from government slavery then so be it, throw me out a window first.


-Alien

I'm sorry, and try not to take this personally, but when you make statements like "our government is corrupt" and "set free from government slavery", then you lose all credibility, at least with me. It demonstrates to me that you know nothing of the government, other than what you read on the internet and watch on TV. You say you see nothing that infringes on our national security. Are you a national security expert? A career diplomat? An seasoned intelligence officer? Policy maker, maybe? No? Then answer me this.......how the heck would you know what is and is not relevant to national security to begin with? Which tidbit in these cables, obvious or otherwise, is doing the most harm? Which covert operation is now defunct? Which important negotiation must now be delayed indefinitely? etc....etc...etc.....

Our government can't agree on anything, from what our tax rates should be to the color of Shinola. However, from what I have seen, the general consensus from almost all members of our government, including the left-wing liberal weenies, has been "yeah, this Wikileaks thing is not cool, and it's hurting our national security and could be putting folks in danger" (nut jobs like Ron Paul and Dennis Kuchinich notwithstanding).

Is it going to take a few hundred dead people to change your mind?

Look, the idea that these documents are bad news bears for the US hasn't really been out and out proven yet, simply because it seems like the cables we've been seeing don't really make THAT large of an impact. We already knew that our leaders were douchebags, they lied about stuff, et al.

If Wikileaks wants to prove their worth, they need to release their best stuff soon, because I don't think Assange really comprehends the short attention span of most people. He doesn't have time on his side, and many people will begin to wear thin if he keeps talking about this "insurance" file being a big deal and continues to not release information. If WL is so keen on "open government" then they have no real reason as to why they can't release the "insurance" file, right? If that file never comes out, he loses all credibility. Bottom line.

reply to post by Pyros


not sure if you have read any of the leaked documents but any personal information was blanked out and no names released All the documents were general in nature and they have done a great job in keeping it that way ....so please do not go down the personal info route...and many goverment organisation have lost thousands of personal information of peoples details and what has come of it....here in england there has been personal medical records and such lost cause of sloppy goverment handling of personal data...so that does not wash.
Banks have lost peoples personal data and nothing done about it...ooops sorry.
Visa has even...ummmmm accidently put out peoples personal data....ooops again sorry...
Least wkileaks had the decency to go throught the documents first to their credit....but once again to me it is all suspect and i don't think for one minute that some dude or organization let these documents go over to wikileaks in the first place without a hidden agenda....
As far as i can see by the people in these threads just arguing simple semantics It shows how gullible people are....
Now accepting what the goverment says.....ANY GOVERNMENT .....is absolutely Idiotic on the tenth degree...
they will no problem come up with some trumpt up charge in which to extradite Assange...and the foolish people of this planet will accept it.....
now the war on Al Qaeda has been move to the war on Anon....Don't people see this...more controls...and more laws to give government the power to track people.....another success for TPTB...
Thanks for being so blind.

Originally posted by plube
reply to post by Pyros

 

not sure if you have read any of the leaked documents but any personal information was blanked out and no names released All the documents were general in nature and they have done a great job in keeping it that way ....so please do not go down the personal info route...

Really? Did you know that in one of the diplomatic cables, a source of information regarding Iran's nuclear power and weapons program is discussed at length. A source providing us with valuable intelligence. WL took the time to redact the source's name. However, further into the cable, it is revealed that the source:

1. Is an engineer, educated in the UK

2. A member of a prominent pre-revolution Isfahan family

3. Once owned a large factory

4. Is a former national fencing champion

5. Is the former president of the Iran Fencing Association

6. Is the former vice president of the Azerbaijan Sports Association

A blind man with a third-grade education could figure out how to track down this person. And where do you think this unfortunate person is right now? Dead in a hole? Swinging from a rope in a city square? Chained to a wall in a dark Tehran basement?

And that is just one example, found in a small portion of what amounts to be a vast amount of sensitive information regarding persons we deal with overseas. So go tell our Iranian friend here about the "general nature" of these documents and lets see how he feels about it............

reply to post by Pyros

The statute does not say "any U.S. citizen".....it states whoever.

This is a perfect example of what we, the realists, of this world are up against.

In the house that I pay for, there is a law: ASRBD Statute 5, Title 1
(i) Thou shalt not bring, in whole or in part, any dead animal flesh into my effing, but not limited thereto, house for the purposes of consumption, unless ye be, as defined under Statute 3, Title 7, paragraph (i), a cat.
(ii) Thou shalt not allow contact between anything belonging to the ASRBD, such as but not limited to, refrigerators, pans, crockery, or cutlery to come into contact with dead animal flesh, whether inside my effing, but not limited thereto, house, or anywhere else (see Statute 3, Title 7, paragraph (ix) for exceptions).

As it happens, nobody has transgressed this law, that I know of, so the sanctioned punishment of penal cleaning up or exile from the Anarcho-Syndicalist Republic of Bunken Drum has never been enacted. When the USA owns the world, I'll give a crap what its laws are. Until then, I'll rofl everytime it demonstrates its impotence by trying to enforce its will outside its borders & fails.

reply to post by Pyros

You say........ "Are you a national security expert? A career diplomat? An seasoned intelligence officer? Policy maker, maybe? No?"

Actually you dont need to work for the government in order to understand how governments including the United States government works. There is such a thing called college courses. Maybe I am a security expert or a policy maker or an intelligence officer or maybe I'm not. Maybe I am qualified tho.

So to answer your question I will say this. These leaks may be hurting the AGENDA of the United States government by exposing its bad manners. But it is far from threatening the security of this nation.

What I am saying and what many other people who agree with me are saying is... expose the rotten apples and pluck them from the barrel, find the weeds and pull them from the garden. We aren't trying to save face for a corrupt government by keeping their dirty secrets for them let them burn and let freedom and justice prevail.

--You say these leaks threatens the security of this nation? Then what exactly is the threat and what is at stake?


--You say so many innocent people are dying? Where is the pile of bodies?


You say........ "yeah, this Wikileaks thing is not cool, and it's hurting our national security and could be putting folks in danger"

Of course they don't like it and of course they are going to say it hurts our national security. This is because it hurts their negative agenda and they want the backing of the populace to help voice their disdain which they will get some in the form of people like yourself after convincing you threw main stream media outlets of which is where you obviously get all of your information.


You say......." Is it going to take a few hundred dead people to change your mind?"

Government is not a people it is an entity let them hang themselves and let a better man fill his shoes.


-Alien

reply to post by FermiFlux


Or he's not worried because he has them by the balls with some random piece of information given to wikileaks.

In fact, isn't this the second time they are trying to accuse him of sexual crimes?

reply to post by Tholidor


Are you kidding me they had some ops drum up a charge to get him into custody.
Tomorrow there will be a cable requesting that he be extridited on charges.
Due I agree NO.
I think this is the way the system is used against people like you and me when the govement wants to get someone.
What do we have to do to get him in custody? Pay off some people and the never have to reveal them self claim state secrets this is done on a daily basis. There are many laws drawn up under the patriot act that allow him to be prosecuted.

This is what we call.

Get er dun.

I am sure that he is doing this to fight on another front really....For the sake of freedom of press/human rights/legal system etc. If he can have the sex accusations dropped (likely) and eventually freed from custody because no charges can be applied to him it will have the effect of showing the public suspicious activities of governments. If he is given a clearly unfair trial then the same or similar effects will come to pass...either way any flaws will be exposed if the countries wrestling for him aren't careful.

Is the first time i read about somebody getting rape in a threesome in sweeden lol lol.

I am not so surprised at this ,no one can win in fighting the so many government ,it is said that he denied their accuse.Now maybe he is waiting for sentence...