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What is wrong with atheists?

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posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 09:46 AM
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I respect people who are honest, even with themselves.

Sometimes the only difference between a religious person and an atheist is that the atheist is honest with himself.




posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well, please demonstrate that Atheists speak so much about religion compared to religious individuals.

And there's a simple reason, because a lot of religious thought can be seen as dangerous. Also, we might want to create an open discussion for people who are doubting their beliefs to open up and 'come out' as atheists.



posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well, please demonstrate that Atheists speak so much about religion compared to religious individuals.

And there's a simple reason, because a lot of religious thought can be seen as dangerous. Also, we might want to create an open discussion for people who are doubting their beliefs to open up and 'come out' as atheists.


That's called proselytizing.

All I said is I find it extremely odd that Atheists would do this about God when they affirm He doesn't exist.

I still thinks it's odd.



posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
That's called proselytizing.


No, proselytizing is a form of solicitation. This is more of a thing where atheists engage in the discussion with the hope of other closeted atheists 'coming out'.

Theists create the discussion by repeatedly stating that non-god people are bad. We address this, hoping to make non-god people realize they aren't horrible.



All I said is I find it extremely odd that Atheists would do this about God when they affirm He doesn't exist.


...don't be so arrogant. This isn't about your god, this is about all of the claimed deities. We reject them all equally.

And we do not affirm, we reject. We are a negative position.

Please, stop putting us as a positive position. We reject claims, we don't make any of our own.



I still thinks it's odd.


Because you don't seem to understand it.

NINJA EDIT!

I just remembered something about you:

Enlisted in the Lords Army
Silencing the heretics


Atheists are heretics, you're the one starting the debate.
edit on 7/12/10 by madnessinmysoul because: Ninja edit.



posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
I do not believe in the 'spirit', that one I'm fairly certain about as well. It doesn't make sense nor does it add anything meaningful or true to reality by believing int.


You know whats a kicker..

I fully and completely agree with you here...it makes absolutely no sense.

What makes sense to me...extraterrestrials. I can fully accept, even assume there are highly advanced species out there...and many of which have found new sciences allowing for vast distances travelled rapidly.

It makes sense that incredibly advanced species would map out the cosmos and at the very least be aware of our existance, if not actively monitering our development...again...this is logical to me, this makes sense...its grounded in material and understanding.

spirits..souls...things after death...that makes absolutely no sense...total nonsense.


yet, for all my watching the skys, I have never seen anything that is not clearly a satellite, comet, meteor, etc..explainable anotherwards.

yet, I have experienced several times what can, after years and years of truely trying to understand it, be attributed to a classic "ghost" experience.

The world conspires to keep me confused...but I think I like the odd happening now and then to keep me challenging my reality and what I think I know.

The actual truth of the universe laughs at my feeble attempt to understand it...



posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



Theists create the discussion by repeatedly stating that non-god people are bad. We address this, hoping to make non-god people realize they aren't horrible.


I take personal exception to that statement. RELIGIONISTS sell the idea that there are two different kinds of people, "good people" and 'bad people". We're ALL bad people compared to God.

There are either unrepentant evil sinners (bad people), or repentant evil sinners (still bad people). Religion is the most perverse idea on Earth, with the Christian form being the most nefarious.


Please, stop putting us as a positive position. We reject claims, we don't make any of our own.


Tautology.


Atheists are heretics, you're the one starting the debate.


No, a "heretic" in Christianity is someone who claims to be a Christian yet teaches/acts contrary to Christ. It's someone who says "Hey, I'm a sheep!", but their words and deeds clearly show them to be a wolf. I have no issues at all with unbelievers, I was one myself. My problem is with false teaches and heretics.

"You can never be too gentle with the sheep and you can never be too harsh with the wolves." ~ Martin Luther

edit on 7-12-2010 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I take personal exception to that statement. RELIGIONISTS sell the idea that there are two different kinds of people, "good people" and 'bad people". We're ALL bad people compared to God.


Eh...I take the moral high ground over your deity. I've never committed nor ordered genocide. That automatically puts me over your deity.



There are either unrepentant evil sinners (bad people), or repentant evil sinners (still bad people). Religion is the most perverse idea on Earth, with the Christian form being the most nefarious.


Actually, I'd say theistic belief in and of itself is a fairly perverse idea. At least in the form where there's one dude who came to one planet that is less than 1 billionth of 1% of the universe because we're all do damned special in the scheme of things.




Please, stop putting us as a positive position. We reject claims, we don't make any of our own.


Tautology.


A tautology is saying X because X. What I just said was not a tautology.

I said we are not a positive position. I then elaborated by saying that we simply reject claims instead of making them.

I elaborated, not repeated. This is not a tautology.




Atheists are heretics, you're the one starting the debate.


No, a "heretic" in Christianity is someone who claims to be a Christian yet teaches/acts contrary to Christ.


No, a 'heretic' in Christianity is anyone who makes a claim contrary to Christianity.

Oh wait, there are myriad definitions because Christianity doesn't have a unified doctrine and nobody can agree on what is contrary to Christ.



It's someone who says "Hey, I'm a sheep!", but their words and deeds clearly show them to be a wolf. I have no issues at all with unbelievers, I was one myself. My problem is with false teaches and heretics.


Again, what makes a false teacher or heretic? It's an issue of contention among believers. There are so many believers with so many different positions that it's impossible to choose.



posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 






Eh...I take the moral high ground over your deity. I've never committed nor ordered genocide. That automatically puts me over your deity.


You'd have an argument if God were another part of creation, or you were another God. God gets to make decisions on life or death, He created us. And besides, last time I checked, every death that's ever happened in human history is because God allows it. God doesn't judge us compared to each other, He judges us compared to Christ.




Actually, I'd say theistic belief in and of itself is a fairly perverse idea. At least in the form where there's one dude who came to one planet that is less than 1 billionth of 1% of the universe because we're all do damned special in the scheme of things.


Interesting hostility. I simply claimed I thought your position, (sorry, lack of position), was odd. You've lowered yourself to an ad hominem attack. No, my ideas are not "perverse", perverse would imply "not considered normal". If we go upon strictly polling numbers the Atheist position is a perverse one compared to people who are theists. You can continue with your 'perverse' argument if you wish, but let me remind you that appeal to numbers arguments only carry weight on the playgrounds of the world.




I said we are not a positive position. I then elaborated by saying that we simply reject claims instead of making them.


I like your reasoning actually. From now on I'm not going to take a positive position either. Henceforth; I'm now going to reject claims;

I have NO faith whatsoever that God does not exist.





No, a 'heretic' in Christianity is anyone who makes a claim contrary to Christianity.


No, that could include theists of other beliefs/deities, or atheists, or satanists. A "heretic" in Christianity is someone who claims to be Christian yet believes/teaches contrary to Christ's teachings.


Oh wait, there are myriad definitions because Christianity doesn't have a unified doctrine and nobody can agree on what is contrary to Christ.


That's the fault of the Alexandrian schools that made a practice of deleting enormous amounts of scriptures and attacked the virgin birth and deity of Jesus Christ. Over 40,000 Greek words were deleted. The Codex Sinaticus and Vaticanus is the Mss Westcott and Hort (two REAL heretics) used to make their Greek translation, which all modern Bible versions rely upon.

Heck, in the NIV you can't even find out who killed Goliath.





edit on 7-12-2010 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Actually, I'd say theistic belief in and of itself is a fairly perverse idea. At least in the form where there's one dude who came to one planet that is less than 1 billionth of 1% of the universe because we're all do damned special in the scheme of things.


Personally, I see nothing in scripture or theology that says that there aren't extraterrestrial civilizations and that God doesn't have a relationship with them, too. After all, our creator would be their creator, as well, and the "made us in his image" doesn't necessarily mean physically.

That's one of many things that I find fascinating to contemplate, and I hope that I will have an opportunity to explore in the next life.


No, a 'heretic' in Christianity is anyone who makes a claim contrary to Christianity.


Technically, no, a heresy is a wrong teaching about Christ or Christianity, and while a Christian would say that an atheist's lack of belief is "wrong", it's not wrong in the same sense as, say, the Gnostic Christians are wrong.


Again, what makes a false teacher or heretic? It's an issue of contention among believers. There are so many believers with so many different positions that it's impossible to choose.


Fundamentally, it comes down to consistency, I think, though pushing beyond that we work our way into doctrinal differences that really aren't all that important. As a Protestant, my belief is that it simply comes down to faith in Christ, and living by his teachings and so the doctrinal differences, or the Calvinist/Arminian schism, or the style of Communion, meh, doesn't matter.

As I told a friend yesterday, I believe that my wife is in heaven -- I have felt and seen signs that indicate that she's okay. She was not an evangelical, she was not a fundamentalist and she was not a Protestant, so those things can't matter. She was a Catholic, but she would have died in what the Church considers a state of mortal sin, because she didn't go to Confession and did not take the Eucharist after we were married. So those things don't seem to matter, either.

She was, however, a strong believer in Christ, one who led a life with him at her centre, and who practiced what he preached, on a daily basis. THAT, I think, is what mattered, and what has brought her home to her God and her Christ. The remainder are things that we, as men, have attached to God, that we, as men, think are important, but kind of miss the mark of "Love God, love everyone else."

In a sense, this is heretical teaching, but it's only heretical to the particular denomination that holds those doctrinal beliefs. To say that Patti was not a fundamentalist, but is in heaven, might be offensive to a fundamentalist, but that is doctrinal and nothing more. To say that she died without a recent Rite of Confession, but was still saved, might be offensive to a Catholic, but that is doctrinal and nothing more.

Arguing about who is "right" among Christians annoys me to no end, because the likelihood is that none of us are "right", and how can we claim to follow Christ when we can't even love each other, much less non Christians?

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a rant there.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



Personally, I see nothing in scripture or theology that says that there aren't extraterrestrial civilizations and that God doesn't have a relationship with them, too. After all, our creator would be their creator, as well, and the "made us in his image" doesn't necessarily mean physically.


Perhaps you should read your bible more:

Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen
 



Personally, I see nothing in scripture or theology that says that there aren't extraterrestrial civilizations and that God doesn't have a relationship with them, too. After all, our creator would be their creator, as well, and the "made us in his image" doesn't necessarily mean physically.


Perhaps you should read your bible more:

Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living."


As we have discussed before, my friend, I am not a fundamentalist, and do not have the same literal sense as yourself. I do not consider Eve to be the mother of the little birds outside of my window, the plant by my desk or the dog on my couch, so the interpretation of the passage as meaning "all life" as opposed to "human life" does not seem proper.

Do you believe that the possibility of life outside of our Earth, even intelligent life, diminishes God in some fashion? If there is intelligent life beyond this world, do you think that their creator would have nothing to do with them? Not criticizing, just curious.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 11:42 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


That's precisely why i posted that statement, your disdain for the Word of God. And of course the passage doesn't speak about Eve being the mother of the animal kingdom. But was a prophetic statement by Adam. When you take a few hours to study the Heptadic Structure of the OT and NT the fingerprint of the Holy Spirit is clearly displayed on every letter of the text down to the Jot and Tittle. Teh probabilities for a man, or 40 men to write the books of the Bible with the Heptadic Structures they display is impossible. (In science anything with a probability greater than 10 to the 50th power is considered impossible.)

And I don't propose to speak for your faith in the Holy Spirit, but IMHO He is not in the business of fabricating lies. The only things God created were the angels, humans, plants and the animal kingdom. When you see that the placement of the stars is done solely to teach the message of redemption in the heavenlies you'll understand why he placed them exactly where He placed them in the universe.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I didn't come in here to get into a pissing match over your specific doctrine and how abominable I find your interpretation of the trinitarian form of the deity Yahweh. I asked a very simple question. I will only address points relating to that question.

I am not afraid to address the other points, I'm just sick of watching threads I make spiral out of control into off-topic territory. In another thread I'll address them.


Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Interesting hostility. I simply claimed I thought your position, (sorry, lack of position), was odd. You've lowered yourself to an ad hominem attack.


No, an ad hominem attack would be a baseless bit of name calling. I explained why I found your idea perverse.





I said we are not a positive position. I then elaborated by saying that we simply reject claims instead of making them.


I like your reasoning actually. From now on I'm not going to take a positive position either. Henceforth; I'm now going to reject claims;

I have NO faith whatsoever that God does not exist.


Here's the problem with that...you don't understand logic. I'm not saying you're not able to implement it, you just don't understand the fundamentals.

Saying "I do not not believe in God" simply means that you believe, because it's a double negative. A double negation, at least in this linguistic instance, is equivalent to an affirmation.

You're also apply the label of faith to skepticism, an inherently fallacious example. Rejecting claims which have not met a burden of proof is not a form of faith, it's the lack of faith in a claim.




No, that could include theists of other beliefs/deities, or atheists, or satanists. A "heretic" in Christianity is someone who claims to be Christian yet believes/teaches contrary to Christ's teachings.


Oh wait, I think you seem to be under the impression that all Christians agree with you

Unless you can address the question of what a Christian is you can't really argue from that position.




Oh wait, there are myriad definitions because Christianity doesn't have a unified doctrine and nobody can agree on what is contrary to Christ.


That's the fault of the Alexandrian schools that made a practice of deleting enormous amounts of scriptures and attacked the virgin birth and deity of Jesus Christ. Over 40,000 Greek words were deleted. The Codex Sinaticus and Vaticanus is the Mss Westcott and Hort (two REAL heretics) used to make their Greek translation, which all modern Bible versions rely upon.


Again, that's your position, but can you really support it as the basis of Christianity?


reply to post by adjensen
 


Shame there aren't more theists as reasonable as you on here.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And I don't propose to speak for your faith in the Holy Spirit, but IMHO He is not in the business of fabricating lies. The only things God created were the angels, humans, plants and the animal kingdom.


I fail to see where I have "lied" in expressing my opinion. God created everything, all that is seen and unseen. In saying "I know that life exists nowhere but on Earth", you are making an absolute statement, based on a non-absolute observation, which is the same thing as an atheist saying "I know that God does not exist".

Such a view, in my opinion, needlessly handcuffs and limits God. You are saying that, because of the way that you read something in the Bible, God cannot have created life anywhere else, which is a ludicrous statement that borders on blasphemy, as you demand that God conform himself and his creation to your expectations.

Again, I do not claim that life DOES exist anywhere beyond Earth, I merely say that there is nothing to say that it does not. Twenty years ago, a theistic argument could have been made that there were no planets beyond those in our solar system, but such a argument would have been based on conjecture, and has been proven to be false in the ensuing years.

God is what God is, his creation is what it is, and the translation, interpretation and interpolation of ancient texts do not change that. They do not mould reality. I accept God for who he is, and what he has done, not for what I want him to be, or for what I want him to have done. If the Bible explicitly said "there is no life but on Earth", I'd be fine with that, but this is not what it says, it is what some people say that it says, and you'll forgive me for not trusting in the opinion of man.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



I didn't come in here to get into a pissing match over your specific doctrine


Sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test. I simply answered the Q in your OP previously. If you didn't want a "pissing match", you would have passed it over.

And you did present an ad hominem, you attacked me and my theology rather than what I stated in my post with your "perverse" comment. Offer me the same respect I offer you. I even denied your OP premise that Christians think something is "wrong" with atheists. I still don't think something is "wrong" with you guys.

Lastly, what you claimed is Tautology and I made my double negative hyperbole to prove my point. I take it personally that you'd claim I'm "illogical", in fact one of the main things that drove me AWAY from Evolution to Creationism is the fact that the probability alone for just hemoglobin to arrive by random chance is impossible. It would be a chance of 10 to the 650th power. Anything in science that exceeds 10 to the 50th power is considered impossible.

So, either we can put the childish ad hominem arguments, appeals to authority and ridicule behind or I'll just leave you alone in this thread. You make the next move.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Re-read my post.

I never claimed you lied.





posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well, then I guess I don't understand the meaning of:


And I don't propose to speak for your faith in the Holy Spirit, but IMHO He is not in the business of fabricating lies.


and how it relates to the remainder of my post, as one person's interpretation of a bit of Genesis resulting in a claim that God cannot have created life anywhere but on Earth has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

Does the Bible say "no life, but on Earth," in those words? No.

Do you say "no life, but on Earth," based on your interpretation of words in the Bible that do NOT say that? Yes.

So, if you please, explain why you are limiting God and saying that he cannot do something that he obviously can. I understand why you don't like the idea, and, once again, I'm not saying that you are wrong in your statement "no life, but on Earth", because we have no evidence otherwise, but I have a real problem with you saying that God could not have created life elsewhere, when nowhere is that so written.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 01:57 PM
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Because English is a terribly lazy language, we use the same word for numerous definitions. The Hebrew for "living" denotes non-plant or animal life.



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Because English is a terribly lazy language, we use the same word for numerous definitions. The Hebrew for "living" denotes non-plant or animal life.


Again, that merely states that Eve is the mother of all humankind, which I take no issue with. But it does not address the question I have asked, because it does not say "there is no life, save on Earth."



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


What do you think about Genesis 6:17?

When God says "all flesh" does He not really mean "all flesh", but some flesh?



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