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TSA-Style Pat Downs Hit The Streets

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posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 


I'm not worried, just curious. First thing I do in an unfamiliar city is ask someone what to be aware of and where to avoid.

When I was in university in my regions largest city I worked 12-8am downtown...I've had a knife held to my throat and a gun put in my face.

After having seen the bullet that could have ended it all I've realized that when it is your time, it's your time.

Intelligence trumps fear every time




posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:04 PM
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This is the same for every major city-- There's the tourist area commonly referred to as "Center City" no matter what state you are in...And then there is the real city...If you are just visiting(even for the 100th) time, than you don't know the city. You never seen a city until you've been to the jails.(Fact)



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by ATLien
1.Your not a black teenager
2.You don't have tattoo's on your face
3.You don't drive a Bonneville,Park Ave, or Grand Marquis
4.Your not Muslim

...They don't care about white adults unless they're drug addicts, so don't state your immunity like Philadelphia Police are up to par..


I am certainly not immune to a Terry stop. No matter what demographic I fall into. No one is, if there is reasonable suspicion, as stated clearly by the Supreme Court over 40 years ago. Philadelphia Police, like the police anywhere else in the world, have their fair share of problems. But let us not get distracted from the issue here

The issue is the legality of the Terry stop. If I was a black, tattooed Muslim teenager driving one of the vehicles that you mentioned, how would that make me more likely to be at risk for a Terry stop?



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by [davinci]
 


Wow your story does sound a bit scary. A friend of mine was a school teacher in the neighboring city of Camden (right across the Delaware River from Philly). He was held up similarly right in front of the school he taught in. Now that city is a place where someone should definetly worry about where they are after dark, especially now they just laid off many of the police there.

In the past decade Ive been to NYC, Boston, Memphis, New Orleans, Atlanta, Chicago, Milwaukee, LA and San Diego among many other places.
Definetly your advice is worthwhile for people to heed when travelling. Have your smarts with you and do a little research. Talk to someone form the area. Travelling to any one of the cities aforementioned can be rewarding and magnificent, if you take the necessary precautions.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 



If I was a black, tattooed Muslim teenager driving one of the vehicles that you mentioned, how would that make me more likely to be at risk for a Terry stop?


Ok, if you really believe that and you can honestly say that profiling would not play a part in determining whether to stop, harass and search someone, then I wont even bother replying to any more of your posts.
Youre either arguing for the sake of arguing or your rose colored glasses turned into blinders.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 


Forget the Terry dude..
Stop and Frisk is a LAW..
I've spent 6 years incarcerated various separate occasions/charges..
The probable cause defense is irrelevant in Philadelphia, I don't care if you have a Degree in Law
Call a random Philadelphia Public Defender's office right now and tell them you got "searched" in a chinese store while waiting for your food, they're gonna tell you to take a plea..



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 


Terry vs Ohio does have it's limitations. This dissenting question by Douglas could very well play into any future challenge.... "To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment." (392 U.S. 1, at 38).

Given the numbers stated as to how many people were actually arrested with this practice against the 250,000 or so stopped seems lopsided enough to generate a serious challenge. The "Terry" decision by the court did have it's dissenters and I for one do not agree with the 1968 decision. This one decision has made way for the further erosion of our liberties and I applaud any efforts to re-address it's constitutionality.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by ATLien
 


You are correct, it is law, that has been challenged in the Supreme Court and held up as not in violation to the 4th amendment.

The policy was broadened under Democratic Mayor Michael Nutter when he took office in 2008 as a crime fighting measure. Personally I am not a big fan of Nutter, but he has vowed to be tough on crime.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:41 PM
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1. Simply putting a hand in a coat pocket is nothing like the invasive genital-caress of a TSA pat down.

2. It has ALWAYS been the law (well not literally always, but for as long as I can remember) for police to search/frisk your outer clothes (pockets, including pants pockets, hoods, etc) in order to verify that you are not carrying a weapon if they have reason to suspect that you are. They have to "suspect", but of course it's just the honor system and they can and will always say that you looked or acted suspicious for whatever reason.

My point is, people being "stopped on the street and frisked" is nothing new, and has been going on for decades. Usually its people who are truly suspicious-looking/acting that get the treatment. I wouldn't worry unless you start seeing everyday people getting searched for no reason.

On a semi-related note, I had a friend who got into a heated argument with the owner of a bar, because it is their policy for the doorman to make a scanned copy of the drivers license/id of every patron. My friend didn't think it was right for them to make copies of his identification, especially digital copies that could later be used to reproduce it. Things are indeed starting to get pretty crazy.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by Blazer
 


Things are getting crazy because we cooperate with what we do not agree with. We cooperate with the violations of our own civil liberties....given most complain about it but very few brave souls will act against it. When we act up things will change. If patrons were to refuse copies of their drivers licenses and leave the owners would change their policies or lose money. Non-violent non-cooperation. I would never cooperate with a body search even if it meant being incarcerated.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


You are very much correct and I applaud you here. I agree that there are limitations, and I also welcome the debate on the issue, and should the issue be brought to the Supreme Court, it does stand a chance at being overtruned again.

Because of one issue, and that is the difference between reasonable suspicion and probable cause.

Another dissenter in the original decision was Justice Fortas. Justice Fortas dissented on the grounds that probable cause would have to be shown for a magistrate to issue a warrant, including a peace officer swearing under oath that the facts that created probable cause were true before issuing the warrant. Fortas believed that reasonable suspicion was not a high enough threshhold, but quoted but quoted Brinegar v US in his dissent:



In dealing with probable cause, . . . as the very name implies, we deal with probabilities. These are not technical; they are the factual and practical considerations of everyday life on which reasonable and prudent men, not legal technicians, act.


Even with probable cause as the threshold, the law still requires peace officers to judge the 'probability' that someone may be in the act of commission of a crime. While reasonable suspicion may not be a high enough threshold, probable cause requires peace officers to judge the probability, but how to judge this probablity is not defined and left up to the officer, or the executive branch of the local governments, and they have to ensure that their threshold does not impune an individuals rights.

That being said, I dont think the original issue was the constitutionality of the Terry stop. The terry stop as it exists today maintains its constitutionality. The issue at hand was that these stops were being lumped in with the TSA scandal. In a sensationalist artcile by none other than Alex Jones.

Witness 2008 if you wanna grab a beer sometime and hash it out I would love to, you sound like someone I would love to hang out with


But these stops are not the same as what the TSA is doing, no matter how it is couched.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 01:04 PM
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You know what though?
The courts are garbage.
Might as well prevent the crime before it happens. Because killers and rapists aren't getting much time in prison anymore. They are getting "rehabilitated".

The prison system is giving consecutive live sentences to people who commit financial crimes.

www.reuters.com...

www.dispatch.com...

www.seattlepi.com...

etc.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


I can see both sides of the coin, to an extent. I do not like being searched, but at the same time I would not want to fly on an airline that did no screening of passengers, because that is surely the one that the guys with bombs would be on. At one point in time, metal detectors and Xray machines were all that was needed. But then the terrorists started using ceramic weapons, things previously not specifically thought of as weapons (sharp objects, etc), and explosives that do not show up on normal scans (PETN, etc). Everyone wants to blame the big bad govt and TSA for invading our privacy, but they are just doing their best to make sure that the bad guys aren't bringing something onto the plane to kill you with (or to use to take over the plane and use it as a missile).

So it's quite a pickle isn't it. I don't want to be searched, but I don't want them to NOT search everyone. Sadly, this is exactly what the terrorists want, and have achieved; for us to be so afraid of their next attack that we will do anything to stop it, including putting up with pain in the ass (literally) body searches and near-nudity scans.

Now with the latest attempt to send bombs in UPS and FedEx packages, I wouldn't be surprised if soon you won't be able to send a package without it being opened and searched. This is ridiculous! We are trying so hard to protect ourselves, we are becoming paralyzed with restrictions.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 


Personally I think that this type of search going on in Philadelphia can be lumped into what is being perpetrated against us by the TSA. There was another similar action taken by Philadelphia police back in 85 that resulted in a class action suite where the plaintiffs prevailed. www.clearinghouse.net...

With as many as 250,000 searches I'm betting someones rights were violated and one or more people will challenge this. The authorities are giving us the ammunition to use against them....why aren't we using it?

Often times local government bodies will back off if challenged, certainly in today's world where the cost of fighting such a questionable legal fight costs millions in tax dollars.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 01:32 PM
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My woman is sexy and has big boobs, she has reported that the police has felt her up twice within the past two weeks. Touching on her breasts, and feeling her cheeks. I wasn't around, but who do we turn to? Who am I gonna call the police? Who do we turn to?



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by stinavamp
 





I think I'm just gonna start wandering the streets naked. I got nothing to hide other than a few tattoos and my nipple piercings. I will apologize now to those who witness my nudity. It's better than being molested by the police. Violate my rights and I'll violate your eyes.


Snicker. Considering us overweight under exercised "baby boomers" are now a large part of the population AND are usually past the "Politically Correct" brain washing that could be an effective tool, snicker snicker



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by Witness2008
 


The Cliett case you bring up was actually settled out of court I believe.
There were actually 3 cases very similar in the 1980's if memory serves me correct.
They have been brought up as a 'history' of racial descrimination by the Philly PD.
The part of this I am trying to wrap my head around regarding the racial discrimination in this more recent case is that both the mayor, Michael Nutter, and the police commissioner, Charles Ramsey, are black men.

The claim is that these balck men are heading the government agency being accused of racially profiling in the stop and frisk policy.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 


Power corrupts...no matter the skin color. I don't think that a persons African heritage makes them any more fair than the white and Zionist ruling classes we've been putting up with for the past 100 years. We are all equal... even in vice

It is always the police actions that bring cases to the forefront. One Philadelphia cop will have gone too far in scope and it will end once again.

I too appreciate the debate you and I are having...civil and thought provoking.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by youdidntseeme
 


i wish it was that warm here. its only 14 here and tonight its supposed to get into the negatives. Stupid old house is so cold got a space heater but it dont help lol i need an electric blanket.



posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 02:23 PM
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America is turning into nazi germany...i think this all stems form bush's patriot act* and he siad capitalism was good for everyone...i guess that why we are how we are now hugh, let alone detroit michigan being a dried up place...effin liars.
if i lived inphilly..ide tell everyone not to carry cash around, sot he detectives dont confiscate it* that should further hurt business
the very same system implemting it wont allow YOU to spend it eff em n let em learn LEAVE ME ALONE
that should make great news when the entire public finds out and holds them accountable



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