Revelation; Harlot Babylon (pt4)- "Drunk with the blood of the saints)

There is a war between satan and the saints,Satan defeats all of the saints except john and jesus. Now the whore of babylon bieng on satans side,has the ability to slay saints. Now bieng drunk with the blood of the saints,this may not mean she litterally drinks the blood,it means she was just feeling extra great the saints got slain because of her.

Originally posted by whipsandchainsamerica
In my opinion,the whore of babylon is a city but it is also a woman.

There are reasons for thinking of this woman as a metaphorical woman.
Very much Old Testament practice, certainly in the prophets.
The city of Babylon is portrayed as a woman in places like Isaiah ch47.
Jeremiah ch4 v30 portrays the city of Jerusalem in terms that are very similar to the vision in Revelation ch13;
"You dress in scarlet, deck yourself with ornaments of gold", etc.
I was looking at these passages in the "other woman" thread cited in the OP.
So, yes, the being "thirsty" for blood is metaphorical, and does mean that the entity represented by this image is pleased at their deaths.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I also posted this in my Illumination thread, as I believe it is pertinent,
however, discern this passage also, from Zep 3: 1-2: 9-13.

It also seems to support the theory we are discussing-

Thus says the LORD:
Woe to the city, rebellious and polluted,
to the tyrannical city!
She hears no voice,
accepts no correction;
In the LORD she has not trusted,
to her God she has not drawn near.

For then I will change and purify
the lips of the peoples,
That they all may call upon the name of the LORD,
to serve him with one accord;
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
and as far as the recesses of the North,
they shall bring me offerings.

On that day
You need not be ashamed
of all your deeds,
your rebellious actions against me;
For then will I remove from your midst
the proud braggarts,
And you shall no longer exalt yourself
on my holy mountain.
But I will leave as a remnant in your midst
a people humble and lowly,
Who shall take refuge in the name of the LORD:
the remnant of Israel.
They shall do no wrong
and speak no lies;
Nor shall there be found in their mouths
a deceitful tongue;
They shall pasture and couch their flocks
with none to disturb them.



"She/ the city"- then reference to the description of the remnant spoke of in Rev 14.
They were redeemed from the "earth" and had no lies in thier mouths.

Might help your research on the matter for the thread you are considering.

www.usccb.org...

reply to post by thegoodearth

Thank you for that comment.
We've just crossed each other's paths!
When you get back to your own thread, you'll see me remarking on the coincidence that I've just quoted that same Zephaniah passage in the "Church Triumphant" thread.
(And now, reading through "Church Triumphant" again, I've only just realised that I forgot to give the reference for that Zephaniah citation. I'll have to do something about that.)
Thanks for drawing my attention to it, though.

And yes, it could also be taken the way that you were discussing before.

reply to post by DISRAELI


It is interesting to see how these all tie together, isn't it?

As I constantly remind myself that the Book of Revelation is thought to be a commentary on everything that has happened from the beginning to the end of the age, if one bears this in mind, the trumpet judgments sound a lot like what happened to Pharoah and the people of Egypt before Moses led the Israelites out and the trumpets are sounded right before the Ark of the Covenant is revealed to John.
Then the ark appears to be the Woman clothed with the Sun who brings redemption to the earth.

Originally posted by thegoodearth
It is interesting to see how these all tie together, isn't it?

the trumpet judgments sound a lot like what happened to Pharoah and the people of Egypt

Not to mention the seven days of trumpets just before the fall of Jericho (something else I haven't been taking into consideration).

reply to post by DISRAELI


Yes, much to look into here.
The eerie similarity is striking-

Water turned to blood-
Frogs over the land-
Lice, gnats, and flies-
Disease of animals-
unhealing Boils over the populance-
Hail, thunder, and darkness-
Plague of locusts-
Death of all firstborn in houses not "marked" with the blood of the lamb- a typology of Christ's blood on the cross.

reply to post by thegoodearth

There are two on that list with particular significance in the "trumpets and bowls";
HAIL is the central feature in the FIRST trumpet.
BOILS are the central feature in the FIRST bowl.
So when I was doing the thread on the trumpets ("Battered Planet"), I suggested that these were "signatures", identifying both sequences as parallel with the circumstances of the Exodus.

[see Battered planet
And, for that matter The Church Triumphant

There is now an Index, covering all these Revelation threads, at this location;

Index of Revelation threads

This thread is numbered as #37 in the "order of chapters" list and Biblical reference index.

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic significance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012

reply to post by DISRAELI


You're getting close with this:

It only remains to add the supposition that the "compromising" church people would also be prepared to give information to the authorities about their brethren and former brethren who were attempting to maintain the old faith. They would thus have a share in the responsibilty for whatever action was then taken by the authorities.

The women described in Revelation are the Church. First, She is adorned with the Sun
then becomes divided: one into a Harlot and the other one that goes out to meet Christ,
adorned in pure and radiant clothing.

The Great Harlot is a God believing people or church that betray the true Church and join the
church of the Anti-Christ. Perhaps this is what amazes the Apostle: that such a bride of Christ
prostitutes herself to the Anti-Christ.

We have a good example of this, as it has already happened with the Moscow Patriarchate during Soviet rule. If anyone wants to read about the devastation this traitor church caused, I encourage them to research Metropolitan Sergius I and his Renovationist Church.

Originally posted by monkcaw
The Great Harlot is a God believing people or church that betray the true Church and join the
church of the Anti-Christ. Perhaps this is what amazes the Apostle: that such a bride of Christ
prostitutes herself to the Anti-Christ.

I would modify that idea, because I don't think the Harlot would be identifiable with any one denomination or church
Rather, I think she would include all those individuals from any denomination who were disloyal to God, in the same way that the Bride would contain all those from any denomination who were true to Christ.
I put this in a different thread, arguing against the common idea that the Harlot should be identified with the church of Rome.

Nevertheless, I'm offering a different line of interpretation.
This is partly because the Harlot rests on the Beast (and I maintain that we're still waiting for the Beast to arrive).
It's also because I'm convinced that the difference here between "faithful" and "unfaithful" is founded upon the choice made by individuals, not on the choice made by groups.

The "faithful woman" would then represent, collectively, each and every individual who was found faithful, from whatever denomination or Christian group.
Conversely, the Harlot would represent, collectively, each and every individual who was NOT found faithful, from whatever denomination or Christian group.
Thus the division between the two would be running within denominations, not between them.
There would not be a neat and clearly visible boundary line, but something much more messy.
In which case, the Harlot would not be a visible and identifiable group, except in the eyes of God.
...
In such circumstances, it would not be possible to relax in the comforting assurance that the unfaithful church was "that lot over there".
The question of ultimate loyalty, between God and the Beast, would be coming much closer to home.

However, I'm sure that the public leadership of the various churches would cast in their lot with the Beast, or else be forced out of leadership.
What you say about the Russian church is a good model; another is the willingness of many german religious leaders to co-operate with Hitler.

reply to post by DISRAELI


I think there was something i missed. Gaia was actually apart of Greek mythos, since it was Gaia who saved Zeus. I honestly cannot remember what for.

BUT moving back onto the bible (Christian). May i ask which specific bible you are using? Modern New Testament or Old Testament? Or did i REALLY miss the point and you are using personal revelation?

DISRAELI, I'm surprised how well you are doing.

I am glad that you are doing so well in your research.

This is what you are missing.

The religions will be culminated universally, obviously. "Catholic" means "universal".

The catholic religion will be the head of the world religion of "environmentalism" as you put it.

ROME IS IT.

I am so pleased that you were able to discern that "one set of believers" will attack the other set for not participating in something.

Because this is exactly how it is... our Christianity has been hijacked by so many different religions that it is ridiculous!

Sunday worship is the key here DISRAELI. This is what you need to be researching. Look up Sunday laws. This is where people will begin to believe that disasters are coming from - - that people are not worshiping on what they perceive to be "the Lord's Day", which they call Sunday.

But you see, that is pagan in nature, and you know it, and you can find it when you research it.

As well, you can look it up for yourself to see that the catholic religion is the one that brought Sunday worship into the picture; quite a while back. Look for the quote, "ecumenical mark of her ecclesiastical authority".

And the protestants never really rectified this situation.

The Lord commanded us, it is a commandment, to remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. The Sabbath day is the 7th day of the week; Friday night sundown until Saturday night sundown by Rome's calendar. This is "the Lord's Day" on which John the Revelator was in the Spirit! You can find this out for yourself with a little research; it's very easy to find out.

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is our Rest, but the Lord also commanded that we remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Jesus said, "Therefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath." So it is no longer necessary that we completely forgo all work on the Sabbath - but according to Isaiah 58, we should be turning our foot from our own works and be doing the works of God on the Sabbath. Then Paul commands us that we should, on the day after the Sabbath, which is the first day of the week, Sunday, Paul commands us and says that we should "attend to your business". Look it up and you will see.

Those who are led will be doing GOOD works on the Sabbath, being in the Spirit on the day of the Lord, helping people; not going to Six Flags to hang out. However, on Sundays, we will be minding our personal business. This day we clean our house or whatever we will do.

And we will be recognized for it... and people will blame us and claim that "God is punishing us" because we are not worshiping on Sunday with the rest of the church. "God is punishing an anti-christian nation! You must go to church!" And the destruction on the planet will become so bad that they will start to be violent. "The dragon was wroth with the woman and waged war against the remnant of her seed." Satan is angry that we are obeying God. The remnant are the few who genuinely obey and love God. Out of all the self-proclaimed Christians on the planet, there are but a few true.

I could go on and on I am sure. But you are doing such an excellent job with your research that I am sure you have a huge chunk of information here to dissect and go through.

By the way, please do not associate me with Seventh-day Adventists, who have also been shaking hands with the Vatican as of late. And do not associate me with the Seventh-day Remnant, as it is by name, because I am not so legalistic in nature. While I believe the Seventh-day Remnant is the closest I've seen in understanding prophecy, it is also too legalistic for it to be realistic to reach out to some people who are too weak to handle the rules that the SDR requires of people. The Spirit said to Paul that it laid no other burden on the Gentiles other than to "abstain from blood, eating meat sacrificed to idols, fornication, and from things strangled" (not necessarily in that order). The SDR lays down burdens that are pretty hard for a person who is suffering greatly and poor in wealth and spirit to follow. However, I will say that the SDR is definitely doing the job it is SUPPOSED to do.

But I am rather, just simply, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Lord and it is only by the Spirit that we are able to say!

I was interrupted for quite a lengthy period of time between now and the last line, but I believe that I have said enough here for now. Please enjoy your research DISRAELI.

reply to post by Spruk

Yes, you are right to remember that Gaia was part of Greek mythology.
In one version, GAIA (Earth) and OURANOS (Heaven) were the parents of all the other gods.
Robert Lovelock revived the name when he wrote "The Gaia Hypothesis", and the concept has been developing something of a cult following.
If you're not aware of the phenomenon, then I take it you don't consort much with feminists. Feminism provides a great deal of the driving force behind the popularity of the concept ("Yay! Our God is female!").

I don't understanf your question about what Bible I am using. My quotations are normally taken from the Revised Standard Version.
This is one of a long series of threads about the book Revelation, which is the last book of the New Testament. As announced in the opening line, it's one of four threads dealing with the image of the "Harlot" in ch17 of that book.
In most of these Revelation threads, I refer back to verses from many other parts of the Bible.
Re-reading the OP, I see that I don't do so much cross-referencing in this one. Having done that spade-work in the other three Harlot threads, I spend more time in this thread taking the overview and drawing conclusions.
You need to check the links mentioned in the OP if you want a better understanding of how the approach works.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

Thank you for thinking that I'm doing well, though I don't quite see why you should be surprised.

In response to your specific suggestion, I want to draw attention to the distinction between "catholic" and "Catholic".
The word "catholic" means "universal", as you say. "Catholic" means "relating to the community known as the Roman Catholic Church".
Not all catholics are Catholic, just as not all the orthodox are Orthodox, and not all democrats are Democrats.

The relevance of this point is that the adoption of Sunday as a day of worship was carried out by the catholics (the community of the early church), not by the Catholics. It can't be blamed on the supreme power of Rome, because Rome wasn't going to acquire supreme power (in the ecclesiastical sense) until more than half a millenium had passed.
Furthermore, it was a perfectly legitimate thing to do, in Biblical terms. It began as early as the first century as a way to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ.
As for the abandonment of Saturday observance; yes, this was a requirement of the Law of Moses.
However, the New Testament understanding is that Christians have been liberated from the law of Moses.
"But now we are discharged from the Law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit"- Romans ch7 v6
The Sabbath commandment is part of the old written code. If they believed the Spirit was guiding them to do so, the early church had exactly the same right to discard the Sabbath commandment as they had to discard the circumcision commandment or any other commandment of the written code.

The people who re-adopted Saturday observance were obliged to regard it as the key doctrine of salvation in order to justify separating themselves on that point, and the idea that they would get persecuted for it follows on from that.
But the belief that the great persecution at the end of the world will be a persecution of Saturday-observers at the hand of Sunday-observers is a fantasy which will never happen, for two reasons.

Firstly, Sunday-observers don't have the will to persecute for that cause. The Sunday-observance communities have never shown any interest in making Saturday-observance people conform. This is because we don't regard it as a key issue, and therefore we do not care that there are people around who observe Saturdays. The motivation to persecute simply isn't there.

Secondly, Sunday-observers will never have the power to persecute for that cause. The social reality of the modern world is that all forms of Christianity have been losing political power, and this is beginning to happen even in America. It is very unlikely that any Christian group will ever again have the political power to persecute another Christian group, on a large scale, on purely Christian issues. Not even "Rome", or the community of Sunday-observers in general.
The political power which makes persecution possible will belong to outsiders, and they're not going to do it on a point which they will regard as a trivial internal issue.

My suggestion that the persecution would be environment-related was a projection of existing social trends.
But I don't believe that a forecast of "persecution for Saturday-observance" has any basis in existing social realities.

I remembered what had left me during that long interruption that took place in the middle of my previous post!

You see, Revelations was revealed to John the Revelator in visions when He was "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day".

That day is the Sabbath day!

The Lord's rest is not just physical. It is a spiritual one. IN order to be able to continue our week, we don't need to just lay down for a while. We also need to replenish spiritually. Spiritual replenishing does not come by only reading, but by the refreshing of His Spirit. When the Spirit refreshes us He is giving us vision, prophecy, comfort, inspiration; whatever it is that we need to get us happily through the next week. But also know that the Holy Spirit convicts and punishes in the spirit as well. Boy do I ever know.

Point being... all of Revelations is because God renewed John with His Spirit on the Sabbath day.

We should be paying very close attention to the lesson here.

Because the seal that God places on His people in Revelation is the Sabbath. Look it up. He says that the Sabbath is a mark of His people. In Revelations His people are sealed in their foreheads. The forehead represents the mind. The mind is where we MIND things. The commandment is "Remember to keep the Sabbath Holy." Remembering is in the mind. But notice the mark is not on the hand like the mark of the beast! Because the seal of God is that we TURN OUR FOOT FROM OUR WORKS ON THE SABBATH. So our hands are not what prove our Remembering of the Sabbath, but it is our mind, or more importantly, our spirit.

But the mark of the beast easily defined because the catholic church did that for us already. "Ecumenical mark of her ecclesiastical authority." This is what they called it when they included Sunday as a day of rest ALSO with the Sabbath. And then eventually the Sabbath was no longer kept because there were great feasts on Sundays and gatherings and the Sabbath was kept to be a day of REST... and the church had made the Sabbath grievous to keep because it actually went so far to say that people were not even allowed to eat on the Sabbath (Which is obviously ridiculous; that is not doing well on the Sabbath at all.)

The catholic church has also been quoted as saying that the protestant church is most definitely catholic because they keep Sunday. Done. Look it up, it's easily found, very public information.

Notice how the mark of the beast is on the forehead AND on the right hand? Because the mark of the beast is Sunday worship. People mind only Sunday and they also WORK THEIR OWN DEVICES ON IT!

Many are saying, "Oh, but what about RFID...." Look. The RFID is the method by which they will discern what your actions are. The RFID is what will decide whether you get to buy or sell. But itself, it is NOT the mark.

As well, people skip over the fact that 666 is the number of A MAN. NOT of Satan. Read again. Look it up. All of the Latin titles for the leadership positions in the catholic church, all of the latin titles of for the leadership equal 666 (you know about Roman numerals I am sure). Look up "Vicarivs Filii Dei". That is the title (or name) of the pope. If you know Roman numerals, you will easily be able to discern that the letters here add up to 666 (understanding that any letters not in the numeral system automatically equal zero).

It's really simple.

And if you do not like wisdom here, then I suggest you look up "Sunday laws", "Blue laws", look up all the people who have had a part in signing blue laws into power and find what religion they are (catholic, protestant, mormon, etc. etc.). Look up quotes from the Vatican where they clearly say that they WILL make the U.S.A. fully catholic and there is nothing to stop them.

You see, it will be fear of Islam that will guide the people in this nation to welcome Catholicism which poses itself as Christianity but in reality is pagan ritualism, Satan's religion from the very beginning.

And all the catholics out there need to understand that I am not putting -you- down. There are catholics that truly love Christ and are unaware of the evil of the name of their religion and its leaders. You are placed where you are at to show love to those around you so that some might still be saved. But you still should be searching and learning to understand about where you are at. You need to leave your catholic churches and bring as many as you love out with you.

Because Babylon is the Vatican. And when that great city is destroyed, all the merchants will weep because they won't be able to sell there anymore (you know how rich the Vatican is!!) and people will be sorry. And those who are NOT catholic will be attacked by those that are catholic and/or catholic serving protestant.

Another thing that I remembered is that feminism and environmentalism will lead to catholicism because of the worship of Mary. IF you want to find a church that breaks all commandments, research Catholicism.

reply to post by DISRAELI


DISRAELI, the Spirit has revealed this to me. You should listen. And I do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, because that is an unforgivable act. So please hear me.

Because in the New Testament we are still commanded by Paul in Hebrews to strive to keep the Sabbath.

As well, the 10 Commandments are not Mosaic law. They are the law from the beginning of the world that Jesus talked about. Remember, the 10 Commandments are the character of Jesus Christ.

God kept the Sabbath, the 7th day of rest, WAY before Moses was born. In fact, God kept the Sabbath on the 7th day. He rested. It is not jewish law, it is a commandment.

Jesus said that it was not enough for us to have His testimony. Look it up and you will see. He said, in order to be saved we must, "obey the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The Sabbath is absolutely valid. The Spirit would not speak against it.

I understand that not everyone understands this because of the state of the world, but when someone has taken it upon their self to research and information happens upon you, it is best for one to be wise enough to do the proper research and asking the Spirit to help you understand.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
You see, Revelations was revealed to John the Revelator in visions when He was "in the Spirit on the Lord's Day".
...
Point being... all of Revelations is because God renewed John with His Spirit on the Sabbath day.

Yes, indeed, but "the Lord's Day" is the day when the Lord was raised fom the dead, and was celebrated by the early church on that basis.
In fact the first chapter of John puts much emphasis on the his resurrection from the dead;
"The first-born of the dead"- v5
"I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys to Death and Hades" v15
The implication is that the Resurrection of Christ is the key to his ability to save his people through the Tribulation described in Revelation-- which makes it very appropriate that the day of the Resurrection should be chosen for giving John the vision.

Another thing that I remembered is that feminism and environmentalism will lead to catholicism because of the worship of Mary.

My Supplementary post made a similar connection, but the other way round. I suggested that devotion to Mary would have the effect of leading Catholics towards Gaia.
The other religions of the world would be much more likely to accept a new focus which did not have previous Christian associations.

PS I've done separate threads on the Mark and "666". But one of the points I make there is that the "gematria" interpretation of "666" yields so many different results that the process becomes ineffective.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Ahh yes, I'm not much of a history buff as i used to be, so I'm still a little foggy.

As far as i understand/aware the gender of the Christian god is always refered to as "he" when talking to other Christians (and other faiths), having a female god(s) was unique to older pantheons. But ill stop here since it'll be erring on the side of off topic :/.

The reason i ask about the specific bible you are talking about, is a pretty easy and simple thing. The bible book sets have gone through a number of revisions, and the minuite i read bible verses it makes it easier for me to dessern which version you are reading from, thus helping me understand exactly what is going on is all.

Dont stress i'm not going to start on a bible rant