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The Bible and Magick

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posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 05:49 AM
I’ve been on a recent net journey, following links that started initially with this one I found on ATS.

You Tube - The Alchemist

An audio book – ‘The Alchemist’ - a bestseller by Paulo Coelho, which is about knowing, and holding on to, your dreams.

Somehow this led me Neville Goddard (1905-1972) who teaches how to use your imagination and the fundamental misunderstandings re the purpose of the Bible. Basically he tells us that the characters of the Bible are not representing actual historical characters, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus etc. but are all representative of all of humanity. (Much along the same lines as the Kabbalah.) He teaches that there is ‘nothing else but God’ and that ‘we are all God’ – that Jesus and his-story is a metaphor for the awakening process of this realisation as well as being a ‘how to’ guide.

Neville Goddard - The Foundation

He tells us that the human imagination is ‘God’ within us and that we can manifest our reality by consciously using it as a tool to achieve our desires whatever they may be. We’ve all heard of a positive mental attitude – he takes it a couple of steps further. He does not claim that this can only be used for ‘good’ (very subjective word) but clearly states it can be used to achieve anything, including malevolence (saying it would be ‘silly’ to claim otherwise)– but suggests we do not so.

He uses the Bible to back up his teachings and almost nothing else.
The next stage of my net journey, following the theme of the ‘power of imagination’ took me to this film at a conference given by Grant Morrison (a fellow Scot)

Grant Morrison - Disinfo Conference

which takes exactly the same teaching as Neville Goddard but from the magick perspective. He gives a short lesson in ‘sigil magick’ during the speech and tells his audience to ‘write this down’ because ‘it works’. Exactly the same message as Mr. Goddard – the only difference being that Grant Morrison’s technique requires the use of a tool – the sigil – whereas Neville Goddard’s technique requires only your mind.

I find it interesting that the two extremes of the spiritual equation teach the same thing. I find that the two extremes of everything, in fact, is ultimately the same thing. Fascism and Communism for example – supposedly the extreme right and extreme left of the political spectrum. However, if the political spectrum is not measured in a straight line but as a circle it’s easy to see that ultimately both amount to a dictatorial leader and the absolute control of the state. This one was a lesson from school days.

I’d be interested to hear from anyone who has experimented with these techniques (whether they achieved the desired result or not) or from anyone who has any further information or links for me to follow on my trail.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:06 AM
I was reading something about sigil magick recently on Gary Osbornes site, but he seems to be down at the moment.
The article I read was about a man called Austin Osman Spare who was adept at using sigils in the way described in the OP. The idea is to manipulate the subconscious into creating the conscious reality by dropping hints that the subconscious mind understands.
This is kind of what Gary was talking about:
Austin Osman Spare - Sigil Magick

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:27 AM
Thanks very much for this. I'll check it out and get back to you. I was trained in hypnotherapy some years ago and know very well the power of the subconscious to overcome perceived problems. Hypnosis is tricky - it works well - but requires a great deal of trust from the hypnotic subject. These techniques cut right through all of that.

Anyhow - I'm off to check out your link.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 07:07 AM
I use sigils regularly. Hell, I use symbolic magick all the time. Really, once you get past the hullabaloo and truly understand the mechanics of this type of "magick" it is as reliable, learnable, and demonstrable as a well-oiled engine.

To me, there are two sorts of magick..
Symbolic and Physical

Physical magick is things like telekinesis, lighting things on fire, that video of that chinese master floating around. Instantaneous stuff. This I have never seen demonstrated and have not ever been able to do myself. Perhaps it can't be done, or perhaps I have not the skill.

Symbolic magick is where its at for the laymen. Once you understand more and more, you start to truly see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Take for example, the Disinfo speech you posted. Morrison talks about how his comic books are sigils. They definately are not the typical marking that most people associate sigils with, aka funny little designs/Spare's technique. Terrence McKenna, in one of his crazy adventures, received a message that perfectly sums it up: "The syntactical nature of reality, the real secret of magic, is that the world is made of words. And if you know the words that the world is made of, you can make of it whatever you wish". Raising your hand, taking a breath, feeling excited, these are all examples of potential sigils....words....symbols..But until you understand why, what they mean, and what "meaning" is, they are empty and you are powerless.

I have found my ability to learn magick is directly proportionate to my understanding of morality, compassion, .etc. The growth is simultaneous.

The elite use the occult, not because it is some way to hack our world. The occult is just what the profane have avoided - attempting to unravel the underlying creative mechanisms that sustain our reality. The occult teaches you to find the most primal, natural state of being. Really, magick and mysticism produce the same result: Oneness with the universe.
edit on 5-12-2010 by Reddupo because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 08:05 AM
reply to post by Reddupo

Thank you so much for your reply. I am truly fascinated by this subject.

I note with interest your quote by Terrence McKenna,“"The syntactical nature of reality, the real secret of magic, is that the world is made of words. And if you know the words that the world is made of, you can make of it whatever you wish," and can relate it directly to Neville Goddard’s quote re the opening lines of the Bible. ‘“In the beginning was the Word (the purpose) and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” The Old Testament is God’s Word (his plan) which he made known through his servants, the prophets. The New Testament interprets the Old. The story of Jesus Christ is the interpretation of the prophecy recorded in the Old. Read it carefully, for everything said of Jesus Christ, you are going to experience. It is said: “His name shall be called the Word of God.” Called God’s Word, his seed, his creative power, your imagination is God’s creative power and wisdom.’

I read the link provided by HelionPrime above re Austin Spare and selected a few quotes for further investigation (by me), ‘Occidental magic is known to rest on two main pillars, namely on will and on imagination.’
And , ‘William James's comparative psychology of religion influenced deeply the intellectuality of this time, but Freud, Adler, and especially Carl G. Jung eventually effected major breakthroughs. From then on, people started to consider the unconscious in earnest.’ Psychology and the fathers of psychiatry are equated to magicians? Makes sense to me. But I would not regard either profession as a positive contribution to human progress.

Mr. Goddard’s proposes the Bible was written as a reminder to us, (written by us indeed - one mind) of what we are and what we are capable of – not as some kind of set of ‘moral’ obligations, and certainly not as a means of controlling the populace.

Further I extracted, ‘In Spare's system there are no "correct" or "incorrect" sigils; neither is there a list of ready-made symbols. It is of no import whether a sigil is the "correct" one or not, but it is crucial that it has been created by the magician and is therefore meaningful to him/her. Because s/he has constructed it for personal use, the sigil easily becomes a catalyst of his/her magical desire, and sometimes it will even waken this desire in the first place.’

This perspective ties in with my own experience of hypnosis (itself a tool of direct access to the unconscious) which, when it is being used by one individual on another, creates a dense, magical atmosphere. The altered state (down to alpha wave level in the brain) is ‘taught’ to the subject while the hypnotist, in order to do so, also takes their own brain into the alpha wave state. However, the hypnotist must firstly overcome the subject’s fear and misunderstanding of what the hypnotic state actually is – hence all the paraphernalia. There is no ‘correct’ method – it depends very much on the two participants. It is the intent that is important.

The established church teaches that the Bible expressly forbids meddling in psychic arts and yet 1 Cor : 14 states, ‘Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.’

And 1 Cor:39, ‘Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.’

It seems to me our minds are so cluttered with excesses of nonsense that we are losing the power of concentration and imagination. How often do we sit and just think clearly and with intent?

I thank you for the references in your post and will take the time to read into them.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 08:08 AM
leading a question. in the bible magic is a curse, as viewed by the jewish, who viewed the egyptian practice of magic as selfish. i guess its funny how a person who is a resident in your house can feel dismayed at your hospitality if they are not given the attention you give yourself for your own sustenance. in short any person who practices magic but does not also honor the pharaoh is infidel, and any infidel that honors a system that is not his own but taught to be as such; is as lost as pharaoh without his emanations.

do you want to speculate or practice? and do you view the actions of naturally adept people who disregard your inquiry as disrespect?

a "good christian" will not stain the purity of his saving by dirtying his garments with the iniquity of past actions.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 10:22 AM
reply to post by Ausar

I'm sorry you've completely lost me. I don't really understand the point you're making. You say that in the Bible 'magic is a curse'. Can you show me the passage where it says that? You'll likely find one - just as I found the verses from Corinthians above.

I was in Egypt earlier this year and there is evidence of magical usage everywhere. The Holy of Holies - which we now have access to - are covered in spells. There is also evidence of the straight up plagiarism of Egyptian beliefs everywhere - the trinity for a start - Osiris, Isis and Horus. The symbol of the Cross - the Nile running south to north - and the Sun travelling directly across its path east to west.

While I was there my guide - a Coptic Christian - told me that there are some who believe that Moses was in fact Akhenaten - the pharaoh who gave us the concept of one God (It was never the Hebrews) - and banned the Egyptians from worshipping Amun Rah. He built a city, Amarna, to facilitate the one God, Aten...but he was loathed because he put a halt to the polytheism traditions that had been prevalent for generations, and upon his death (or his departure) his city was destroyed.

The Hebrews, rather than being slaves as portrayed in the Bible, (there is no evidence of this claim in Egypt anywhere - there is evidence of Nubian slaves, but not Hebrews) in fact became a part of the pharaonic lineage. Akhenaten was a part of that Hebrew/Egyptian lineage which in some way supports the argument that he and Moses were one and the same person (as do the dates). In Egypt I was told that the 40 year wandering in the desert, was a 40 year emigration to set up a society that would have monotheism at its core.

"and do you view the actions of naturally adept people who disregard your inquiry as disrespect? Again this makes no sense to me whatsoever. I simply don't know what you mean. And your last line has simply scrambled my brain.

I started this thread asking for information and links that would help me understand the subject. Do you have any to post?

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 10:34 AM

Originally posted by christina-66

And your last line has simply scrambled my brain.

Here are my unsolicited two cents...

Originally posted by Ausar

a "good christian" will not stain the purity of his saving by dirtying his garments with the iniquity of past actions.

Prior to accepting Christ you are living in the dark. Once you accept Christ in your life you are in the light. Your past transgressions are washed clean and your new life, with your new understanding belongs to God the father. Your orientation is directed towards living a life worthy of recognition by the Lord. We are to reflect the creation of the creator. A person on their walk with Christ is reverent and will not choose to stray from their path by living in a past where they lived without Christ. The baptism is a symbolic death of a life in the flesh and a death to this world. After making that choice you would in theory disregard your past and deny that person that died in the baptism.

Anyways....good thread. I enjoyed reading peoples' thoughts.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 04:20 PM
reply to post by zroth

Thanks for the clarification. I do comprehend the principles of babtism and orthodox views of christianity. What baffled me about the post was the contradiction to previous statements e.g. 'do you want to speculate or practice? and do you view the actions of naturally adept people who disregard your inquiry as disrespect?

I am not a 'good christian' nor do I want, or require, to be judged as such - I would rather be an honest and inquisitive human being. I have a problem with the idea that everything that occurs in life and in this world being the result of bad or good behaviour in the eyes of some omnipotent, out there being. I'd rather take the responsibility on board for myself about myself.

As I said in my op 'good' and 'bad' are very subjective words. Giving to charity would appear to be a 'good' thing but as we recently found out large sums of money from Live Aid was spent on arms as a consequence of the naiveté of the organisers. We contributed to death and misery as well as feeding the hungry. They do say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Neville Goddard uses only the Bible to support his arguments. He argues that there has been a massive misunderstanding about what its about and what its for. I'm inclined to agree. The Christian Scientists say 'Jesus and the Christ' and claim that the Christ energy is an energy that is available to us all - it ties in nicely with Mr. Goddard's ideas. 'To see Jesus, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, or any of the characters of scripture as men of flesh and blood and external to yourself in the pages of history, is to see truth tempered to the weakness of your soul, because until the revelation takes place, you are unable to stand the force of the light of revelation. There is nothing more difficult than to give up a fixed idea, especially concerning religion or politics. Born into a certain religious group, your mother taught you what she was taught by her mother. The school and church you attend confirms your mother’s words and you believe that the characters of scripture lived in time and space and left behind a record of their physical existence - when it isn’t so at all. These are all revelations of an eternal drama which is in you, for your true being is your own wonderful human imagination'.

It is this power of imagination that really interests me.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 05:25 PM
reply to post by christina-66

On the role of the imagination, and the creator, if you haven't read it, I'd strongly suggest to you The Kybalion. An easy, but valuable read.

As for Christianity and its inability to co-exist with magick (and yet we are again making the mistake of thinking magick is unnatural), one only needs to look at the Catholic church, chock-full of invocations, rituals, and talismans (they call them sacramentals). In fact, next time a Christian puts their hands together while praying, tell them to immediately to put their hands down because they are using magick.

posted on Dec, 5 2010 @ 06:05 PM
My fascination with the magic(k)ins and their philosophies began to wain when I started noticing a consistent trend in the often pitiful conditions their lives ended up. Take it for what it's worth, but pick any notable from Thelema to Theosophy and research what life had in store for them. Someone mentioned Austin Osman Spare and he's a decent example:

Austin Osman Spare

During one experiment, Spare tied to make roses magically appear by tracing magic symbols in the air, waving his arms around with his face contorted (to show he was using his will, no doubt...just like when a kid makes a face before they make a wish) and repeating the word “roses”. After a few minutes, an overhead sewer pipe burst, covering Spare and his assistant head to toe in human waste (The Occult by Colin Wilson pg 209) ! Interpret that how you will, I think it pretty much sums up his magical career and teachings (and the occult in general). Like most occultists, Spare died broke. If he knew so much about magic, why could he not use it to create a better life for himself? He couldn’t make it work unless you consider being drenched in sewage and dying broke successful, neither can anyone else.

In 1941, fire and high explosive totally obliterated Spare's studio flat, depriving him of his home, his health and his equipment. For three years he struggled to regain the use of his arms until finally, in 1946, in a cramped basement in Brixton, he began to make pictures again, surrounded by stray cats. At the time he had no bed and worked in an old army shirt and tattered jacket. Yet he still charged only an average of £5 per picture. Clifford Bax, a friend of Spare's and a one-time collaborator recalled:[20]

Spare was quoted as saying, “I have had a hard life, but I blame nobody but myself. I am responsible for my own misfortunes. I am rather apt to butt at a brick wall at times, and find, in the end, I cannot do any good about it. I cannot change things, so I give it my best.”[21] He died in London on 15 May 1956, at the age of

In his later years Spare became obsessed with sex magic and immersed himself in the worship of Isis and other Egyptian deities. He then integrated this into his practice of Witchcraft, as reflected in his artwork of cultural themes. His obsession with sex magic turned him to many perverse sexual activities that the society of his time could not understand. He believed that sexually repulsive acts caused certain chemical changes within the body, thus transforming the magical consciousness.

But hey, if you can make it work for you, I'm cool with that

posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 03:35 AM
reply to post by Reddupo

Thanks for this. I haven't read it - but I will. I am trying to collate as many references and perspectives as possible and spent yesterday reading about, and listening to Terence Mckenna. Interesting fellow, very insightful re culture, society etc. I can't disagree with him on the use of psychedelics - as he said - he's watched it turn peoples' views 'on a sixpence'. Drugs have always been used by mere mortals but I have often felt that one of the problems with drugs in society today is that we have lost the ritual that goes along with them.

I met a polish woman once who told me that 'shamans have been making drugs to obtain their desired effect for thousands of years' and that she ‘felt sorry for those taking ecstasy. If they want to achieve that state', said she 'all that was required was too fast for a couple of days and stay awake for a couple of nights and days' I have no doubt that the use of ecstasy was government approved. Its popularity began (here in Scotland) at the end of the 80's and into the 90's at a time of massive youth unemployment. I have said in another post that our youth have been asleep for 20 years, drugged with prescription drugs, street drugs, and outlandish corporate and government propaganda. In the late 80's the youth were not quite so sleepy. With apparently no future to aspire to they were becoming restless and agitated. I believe the government sanctioned the use of ecstasy - appealing to non-smokers - to give the young the endorphins they were missing out on from their achievement. They chemically replaced the 'feel good' factor of life....and prevented major riots.

Prior to ecstasy if a neighbour smelled the 'funny' aroma of a joint they would call the police - and the police would actually arrive...and make arrests. I used to live near Loch Lomond and one weekend, just sitting in my car, this guy came over and chapped my window saying 'You missed yourself at the weekend Christina, there was a Rave at the Loch.' I burst out laughing - the word 'Rave' was quaint and old fashioned to me. It made me think of Buddy Holly. However, what did happen that weekend, and continued to happen, was that thousands of people were gathering, dancing, while consuming every illegal drug known to man. the police, who a few short months earlier would have raided a house for the sake of a joint - sat outside and did nothing. That was a change in government policy for sure.

It’s the 'tune out' drugs that have become popular today as opposed to the 'tune in'. Most of these chemical formulations are failed psychiatric meds. Cannabis and mushrooms are comparatively harmless. I remember reading that there was only one known death caused by cannabis (outside of the criminal fraternities that distribute the stuff and fight over the money) and that was when 2 kilos fell off a building and landed on a guy's head. You cannot overdose on the stuff - you simply fall asleep. Same with mushrooms - you would have to consume 2 - 3 times your body weight to o.d. So why are they illegal? Because they are weeds and big pharma can't make money from them.

Thanks again for the links.

posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 04:07 AM
reply to post by The GUT

Thanks very much for your post. As I said I'm looking for all perspectives - even the jaded ones. I read Colin Green's 'The Occult' in my late teens, and have read a couple of other standards in my time 'The Golden Bough' and Blavatsky's 'The Secret Doctrine' (although I felt compelled to throw her volume off the wall a couple of times. The woman was such a bloody racist.)

As for Mr. Spare - he's a new one on me - only introduced to me on this thread. (I must have overlooked him in Colin Green's volume) However, I don't think a measure of success is necessarily measured in material gain. Many who choose to explore this area are self proclaimed’s just not what their about. What I can appreciate, from my extremely brief acquaintance with Mr. Spare, is his talent as an artist.

As I said in earlier posts I am trained in hypnosis - which is all about the power of the imagination. The subject initially has a sense that the hypnotist is manifesting new abilities, realities in themselves, and later comes to realise that the hypnotist is merely a guide into the altered state. I have witnessed people speak in languages they have never been taught, or be able to see through material items. My ex was a somnambulist (deep trance subject) who was a trance junkie. It's an age old test - but I could hold a watch behind my back (or any other item) - tell him I was invisible - and he could tell me what time it was etc. I would ask him later how he thought his mind was doing this - he didn't really know - but thought he was simply filling in the blanks of a jigsaw puzzle. Hypnosis taught me that the power of the subconscious is untapped in most of us - and that if we do learn to access it directly it gets results.

The 'profession' however is full of charlatans, with often little to know comprehension of the human condition. I found that if a client came along who had e.g. been the victim of child abuse - they could often do more harm than good. Like putting a sticking plaster on a mortal wound. Getting someone into an altered state is easy – it’s what you do when they're there that requires the skill. So I turned my back on it.In simple terms, I was taught that the conscious mind is a relatively new phenomenon in human development - and that it was brilliant. It was compared to a Ferrari - super fast, super engineered - and prone to breakdown. The subconscious meantime was compared to a steam engine - no matter what it just keeps going. I'm drawn towards Karl Jung's concept of a universal subconscious. I believe that perhaps we all have individual conscious minds, which are shaped and developed by our experiences but we all share the same subconscious mind. We are one being.

In Grant Morrison’s video in the OP he says (paraphrasing here) if we could imagine a plane of e.g. water through which we could slip our hands - and only slipped our hands in to show our five fingers. Whatever was below would look up to see five apparently separate objects with no comprehension of the hand, the arm, the body or the mind that was attached to these fingertips. He describes us as the fingertips, who have forgotten our attachment. Again I'm inclined to agree.

posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 04:08 AM
I believe the Jewish Bible speaks out against Magic as evil. Many of the characters performed miracles through God. The people who performed other forms of magic I believe we're going against God.

posted on Dec, 6 2010 @ 08:00 AM
all bibles paint the actions of egyptians, and gods people while in captivity: under the auspices of magic, as "bad" in the modern context of an action; punishable by death and or persecution. this question is like asking a jewish person how to get to yod, while astral travelling.

posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 06:35 PM
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

To Romantic-Rebel I would say that this thread is not really questioning the morality of magic. As I said in a previous post I am questioning the powers of the human imagination. You say the ‘Jewish Bible’, but I am a Celt and have no need of Jewish or Biblical moral approval. The Celts have their own origin myths and their own belief system. These were largely eradicated courtesy of Nero, Emperor of Rome, an act of revenge after receiving a good kicking by the Celts.

My op mentions Neville Goddard who argues that the entire Bible has been a huge misunderstanding (in line with the Kabbalah – the Jewish teachings of mysticism and magic) he uses only the Bible to support his contention that the human imagination is God in all of us and that we are the bearers of enormous untapped power because we have been trained to deny it. Neville tells us ‘Jesus Christ is the true identity of every one! His name, forever and ever is I am! Therefore, when you say I am, you are declaring your true identity! Do you believe that all things are possible to someone called Jesus Christ, but not yourself? If you do it is because you do not know who you are!’

The Gnostic writings of the Nag Hammadi codices teach something very similar. Their ‘origin of the World’ and ‘Hypostasis of the Archons’ teachings are an alternative version of the Book of Genesis; however, they also absolve humankind of any guilt. No original sin – imagine that! (especially as a woman Romantic-Rebel). It teaches that we were created as slaves to seven Gods, who themselves wanted to be the same as their Creator, and to create animate beings. It also teaches that the Day of Judgment is not the judgment of humankind id not the judgment of humankind but the judgment of the seven Gods who created us. Did they ever manage to curtail their envy of their creator and of us (we have spirit and soul – unlike them who have only spirit) or did they retain inflated egos? The seven creators of humankind were scared because if we ever realized be had both spirit and soul we would realize we were greater than they. 'From that day, the authorities knew that truly there was something mightier than they: they recognized only that their commandments had not been kept. Great jealousy was brought into the world solely because of the immortal man. Now when the rulers saw that their Adam had entered into an alien state of knowledge, they desired to test him, and they gathered together all the domestic animals and the wild beasts of the earth and the birds of heaven and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. When he saw them, he gave names to their creatures.

I would also refer you to the post by Reduppo above and their point re catholic services. If you know anything at all about Wicca you would realize that the catholic service is a Wiccan ritual – only by another name. They have the lot – earth, fire, water etc.

posted on Dec, 7 2010 @ 06:42 PM
reply to post by Ausar

I would ask you what question is 'this question'[/i/. And also I would ask if you meant to write 'yod' or if it was typo for 'god' before I give a full response to your comment.

I have a strong feeling you have something very positive to add to my queries...but you continue to speak in riddles. I'm not cetain if you're a satanist or a christian...or merely an observer.

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