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Originally posted by Xcathdra[/i
Could the argument be made that since Assange opted to go after the US with his methods, that the US should not respond? i am not advocating killing this guy, but I do find it intresting with how its viewed. Assange is the one who decided he wanted to go down this road, and to think the US would just sit and watch is naieve.
Assange is attempting to apply pressure on the US Government. Did he not see that the US would return the favor and apply their own? While people can make the argument that the US is using underhanded techniques against Assange, I think people forget Assange used underhanded techniques against the US.
Criminal no - Suspect, both in the US and Sweden absolutely. He is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, as is the US.
I know people still agree in principle with what he has done. Has anyone rethought their position based on the revenge statement?
Originally posted by Frogs
The US is hardly alone in doing "bad things" in the world. Any number of countries likely have similar things done diplomatically and militarily.
Think all of the things Russia has done in Chechnya, Georgia, etc has been in meeting with all the "rules of war" and no civilians have been harmed?
Think China has killed no innocents in Tibet?
I'll even use the ever popular ATS target - think Israel has done no wrong in Palestine ?
Of course they all have.
Think France, UK, Russia, China, etc don't engage in spying and diplomatic hanky panky.?
Of course they do - every country does.
So given that the US isn't the only country that ever does anything wrong, why focus only them?
I can only think of two reasons. One would be fear of what would happen if he leaked things about China, Russia or Israel. I feel pretty sure any of those countries would kill him. For all he says, he wants to stay alive. He is not afraid the US will kill him. The second, is a vendetta against the US for whatever reasons.
If he *really* wanted to "change the world" he would focus on all the major players and the wrong they commit. That might force everyone to change. To focus solely on the US represents a more personal mission. He doesn't want to change the world for the better - he just wants to hurt the US.
Say he is successful and the China or Russia becomes the top power in the world. Does he (or ATS) really think they will handle things better?
Originally posted by Frogs
The US is hardly alone in doing "bad things" in the world. Any number of countries likely have similar things done diplomatically and militarily.
Think all of the things Russia has done in Chechnya, Georgia, etc has been in meeting with all the "rules of war" and no civilians have been harmed?
Think China has killed no innocents in Tibet?
I'll even use the ever popular ATS target - think Israel has done no wrong in Palestine ?
Of course they all have.
Think France, UK, Russia, China, etc don't engage in spying and diplomatic hanky panky.?
Of course they do - every country does.
So given that the US isn't the only country that ever does anything wrong, why focus only them?
I can only think of two reasons. One would be fear of what would happen if he leaked things about China, Russia or Israel. I feel pretty sure any of those countries would kill him. For all he says, he wants to stay alive. He is not afraid the US will kill him. The second, is a vendetta against the US for whatever reasons.
If he *really* wanted to "change the world" he would focus on all the major players and the wrong they commit. That might force everyone to change. To focus solely on the US represents a more personal mission. He doesn't want to change the world for the better - he just wants to hurt the US.
Say he is successful and the China or Russia becomes the top power in the world. Does he (or ATS) really think they will handle things better?
Originally posted by wcitizen
Yes, and this is the point. The hypocrisy is exposed. The evil game gets messed up. This is a plus for the US as well.
Originally posted by wcitizen
The number of people killed by Saddam is totally irrelevant to the issue of the war. The US/UK invaded Iraq because of a lie about WMD. They have absolutely no right to invade a country just because they don't like that country's politics. The Iraq war was illegal, plain and simple and nothing will make that oik, neither US/UK had any right to be there at all, and they are guilty of massive war crimes.
Originally posted by wcitizen
Look, a US citizen was so sickened by what he or she was seeing that they leaked these documents.
If someone from a different country does the same, there will be leaks about a different country. If not there won't.
Originally posted by wcitizen
In any case, it's not just the US which is getting hit here - many countries' politicians are being exposed.
I honestly find it difficult to understand how many Americans keep saying 'we're not the only ones'. If you get burgled, do you expect the police to say - well, we can't arrest the burglar because there are plenty of other people carrying out burglaries, so it wouldn't be fair to arrest just this one?
Originally posted by wcitizen
The US got exposed. Simple as. US corruption has an massive influence on the world, it's a good place to start.
Originally posted by wcitizen
And how are we going to get this secret government which pulls the strings to be 'accountable' unless the wall of secrecy is torn down bit by bit?
Originally posted by wcitizen
I don't underestand why you call this revenge? In that case, isn't indicting a burglar revenge also?
Originally posted by wcitizen
I don't think it's possible to reply to this without looking at it in a much wider context. YOu are taking it personally, and that's part of the problem, imo. We HAVE to be able to deal with government corruption. There is a centuries old tradition of whistleblowers exposing government corruption, in order to stop them acting against the people. This is why there are laws to protect whistleblowers. There is also the issue of freedom of speech.
Originally posted by wcitizen
TPTB are all saying this is a threat to 'national security', but there is no proof of that at all. It is, for sure, a threat to their secret behind the scenes wheeling and dealing.
Originally posted by wcitizen
It is the people's DUTY to hold the Government accountable. They are denying us this possibility because they withold information, tell lies and censor the MSM. Freedom of information is ESSENTIAL for a democracy. This is an attempt to tear down their 'right to absolute secrecy' and reclaim the rights of the people to know and therefore to hold them accountable.
Originally posted by wcitizen
I think people forget it was not Assange who leaked the information, he just put it on the web.
Originally posted by wcitizen
Of course, he knew there would be a backlash - that is what he has stated his job to be. He's the public face which gets the backlash so the others can get on with their work. But - the backlash should NOT circumvent, yet again, people's right to free speech.
Originally posted by wcitizen
The government response should reflect the law and the individual rights. Any decent government at this stage would be investigating Hillary Clinton for her actions. This government isn't doing that and the US people are so used to their Government not being held accountable for their corruption, they don't seem to really grasp what's going on here. I mean, why are you focusing on WL and not on addressing some of the illegal and unacceptable things done by your government?
Originally posted by wcitizen
Suspected of what in US?
Originally posted by wcitizen
I simply think the revenge statement is rubbish, sorry, no offence, but I really do.
I dont see this as being good for the US with the damage the release has caused,
but shouldnt it be by the American people and not a foriegner?
I and pretty much most Americans have no issue being checked.
Question then... If Assange wanted it stopped, why didnt he go through and find all of the information their was pertaining to criminal acts by the US and release that to the media?
Instead we now have damaged relations with these countries for not other reason than revenge.
Illegally accessing and possessing classified information. Illegally transfering that information to a source that made it available to our enemies while we are at war.
Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by wcitizen
Question then... If Assange wanted it stopped, why didnt he go through and find all of the information their was pertaining to criminal acts by the US and release that to the media?
As days go by the process stories surounding Assange now has almost guaranteed that if any wrong doing is presented, the media will be to busy watching the arrest drama unfold in addition to interviewing members of Congress for their opinions.
I dont think the view on the Diplomatic Cables is too narrow, since the argument again can be applied that not all diplomatic cables related to what his goal was. Again he could have found cables that discuss or even corroborate the Iraq / Afghanistan abuse claims.
Instead we now have damaged relations with these countries for not other reason than revenge.
He could have challeneged the US on the world stage by presenting the info he had located.
Why didnt he do this?
edit on 4-12-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by backinblack
Wiki did not access the information..It was given to them.
Adrian Lamo, a computer hacker who kept touches with the Private by sending instant messages this year, turned him in to the Army investigators to seek cooperation with them.
He said on Friday that WikiLeaks provided Manning with technical backing so that he could send these downloaded data through specially encrypted e-mails to avoid detection, adding that, though without direct evidence proving the connection between Manning and WikiLeaks, Manning was "manipulated" by the website.
There is no response either from the military or WikiLeaks's founder Julian Assange, an Australian national, to Lamo's words.
WikiLeaks doesn’t know the identity of any sources who leak it information, Julian Assange, the website’s mercurial founder, told a gathering at the Frontline Club in London Tuesday night. But he conceded it might have some clues to work with.
Wikileaks founder Julian Assange wants a copy of the chat logs in which a U.S. intelligence analyst discussed providing classified materials to the whistle-blower site, according to an e-mail shown to Wired.com by the ex-hacker who turned the analyst in.
Originally posted by backinblack
When did the US declare they were at War?
President of the General Assembly, Han Seung-Soo
The General Assembly of the United Nations, in its resolution 56/1 adopted immediately after the terrorist attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001, condemned those acts of terrorism in the strongest terms and called for international cooperation to bring to justice the perpetrators, organizers, and sponsors of the outrages. During the General Assembly debate on "Measures to eliminate international terrorism", held last week with an unprecedented number of Member States participating, we voiced our unequivocal view that international terrorism constitutes a threat to international peace and security, as well as a crime against humanity.
The Security Council also adopted resolutions on this issue, which condemned the terrorist attacks as a threat to international peace and security, while reaffirming the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence as recognized by the Charter of the United Nations. I understand that the current military action now being undertaken is predicated on these norms.
Originally posted by Xcathdra
Out of curiosity does this change anyones mind who were supporting Mr. Assange for his stated goal (end war)?
Originally posted by Zamini
Seriously, you post so many opiniated "facts" it is disturbing, disgusting and is EXACTLY what people all over the globe DISLIKE about 'Americans'.
Originally posted by Zamini
Of course it is going to be damaging, but to who? "The US" is a BS answer. It is exactly how the bought and paid for media wants people to think. You want to know what is hurting the US? Foreign policy, domestic policy, financial policy...and guess what is being exposed by WL?
Originally posted by Zamini
GUESS how the hundreds of other nations across the globe felt when the 'all-powerful spreaders of democracy' showed up at their doorsteps.
Originally posted by Zamini
HOW can you say this?
Originally posted by Zamini
Its rediculous
Originally posted by Zamini
Release it to the same media that is making him out to be the crook, yeah, I totally get where you're coming from(not).
Originally posted by Zamini
Actually no. The relationship with these countries was already damaged, 'you' had a nice relationship with dictators, druglords, corrupt politicians which is now being shown. Revenge?
Originally posted by Xcathdra
Mannings actions fall under treason, and Assanges actions fall under espionage.
Originally posted by Sentinel412
Assange's actions falls under journalism. Espionage would be if he would work for a foreign agency or would sale all these information for a huge ammount of money. This is pure journalism as he is releasing all these info to the public.
Originally posted by Sentinel412
When the U.S. journalists are making similar things with other countries, where they're getting the info from insiders, it's also called as journalism. So please forget the double standards