UK Porton Down WMD Expert Dies In Aircrash

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posted on Jul, 2 2004 @ 01:07 PM
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The Chief Scientist at Porton Down, the UK Chemical and Biological Warfare centre, has died in an aircraft accident. He was acknowledged as an expert in Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Air Crash Victim Was Weapons Expert

By Sam Marsden, PA News


The pilot of an aircraft who died alongside three passengers when it crashed into a field was an expert in chemical and biological weapons, it emerged today.

Dr Paul Norman, 52, of Salisbury, Wiltshire, was killed when the single-engine Cessna 206 he was piloting crashed in Devon on Sunday.

A father and daughter also died at the scene, and 44-year-old parachute instructor and Royal Marine Major Mike Wills later died in hospital.

Dr Norman, who was married with a 14-year-old son and a 20-year-old daughter, was the chief scientist for chemical and biological defence at the Ministry of Defence’s laboratory at Porton Down, Wiltshire.

He travelled the world lecturing on defending against the scourge of weapons of mass destruction, a friend and colleague said today.

Steve Eley, chief scientist for hazard reduction at Porton Down, said: “Paul was a great deal larger than life, and has left an enormous number of friends, all of whom have lost an irreplaceable part of their lives.”

Dr Norman’s hobbies included parachuting, flying and looking after his small collection of old cars.

Following study in Liverpool, the USA and Canada, he started work at Porton Down in 1986 and became an expert in his field.

The Cessna crashed near the village of Beacon, east Devon, a few miles from Dunkeswell airfield, where it took off.

The crash site was examined by officials from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch.

The wreckage of the aircraft was removed from the site to the AAIB base at Farnborough.

Retired police officer Eric Franklin, 66, from Beacon, has described seeing the aircraft flying low over his farmhouse and hearing the engine “cutting out and spluttering” before the crash.

Full story

news.scotsman.com...


zero lift




posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 07:20 AM
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On May 17 2004, I did send 9 mails using the recorded delivery services of the Royal Mail. One has been sent to the House Of Commons and the other 8 to nationwide UK newspapers. Each mail contained the same 2 letters.

One of those letters was questioning the adequacy of the NBC protection available to the British troops involved in Operation Telic as a mean to demonstrate the fact that Tony Blair had blatantly lied to the British People and Parliament about his personal belief in Iraq's ownership of the so-called weapons of mass destruction, the level of NBC equipment available for the protection of British troops and civilian personnels deployed in Iraq appearing to me so poor in contrast to the established lethal capability of Saddam Hussein's army as documented in "Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction - The Assessment Of The British Government" published by No 10 in 2002 which grants for example, Saddam's Army the ownership of enough Agent VX to kill 150 million persons with several possible delivery means available such as mortars.

The other letter was questioning the Government's policies regarding the handling of the cannabis issue as a mean to demonstrate that Tony Blair is eagerly and directly helping to finance the terrorist organisations he pretends to fight.

Out of those 9 mails, I've received 2 answers. One from the Southampton Labour MP writing on behalf of the Parliament who answers unsatisfactorily about the NBC issue and doesn't even quote the cannabis one. The other from the Daily Mail was a generic "Sorry and thank you but we can't publish everything we receive". 2 others addressed to The Guardian and The Times have been received but went unanswered and unpublished. The other 5, addressed to The Independent, The Daily Mirror, The Sun, The Daily Express and The Daily Telegraph have never been delivered! (I've since claimed for compensation at the post and they've quickly apologized for the inexplicable loss but did compensate me only with 12 first class stamp for each missing recorded delivery item instead of 5 x £28 (standard declared value of item.))

After a few days, I was so upset by the non-delivery of recorded letters that I distributed in the streets of Southampton about 300 copies of them to whoever was accepting to take them, including several members of the UK Independence Party, Conservative Party and Peace Party who happened to be out, campaigning for the coming European Parliament elections.

I did nothing more about it since apart from a few other posts of those letters to political parties through the normal post and have received no answers so far.

I have recently subscribed to to an Internet connection and my browsing led me to learn yesterday about the recent unnatural death in an air crash in Devon of Dr Paul Norman, from Salisbury, the chief scientist for UK chemical and biological defence at the Defence and Science Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down, the Ministry of Defence facility in Wiltshire, and described by colleagues as one of the world's leading experts on how to counter WMD attacks and terrorism. He had worked at Porton Down for 18 years, developing protective equipment against chemical weapons.

According to their own website "DSTL’s activities in Operation Telic included hot issues, especially concerning chemical, biological and radiological matters."... "DSTL had ten people embedded in the Air HQ and several more in the Land HQ. One such expert, Hilary, was Senior Scientific Advisor to the Command HQ in Qatar for 12 weeks. Her job, alongside Steve Bailey and Sarah Vickress, also of Porton Down, was to advise them on chemical and biological threats. "I was working as part of the force protection area, ensuring that policy regarding NBC was carried out correctly and answering questions on NBC from the front line... I was there to advise on ‘false alarms’, when troops in theatre thought that they were being attacked by NBC weapons, but were not."... "Following the end of major hostilities, and in response to this threat, a fully-equipped UK chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear (CBRN) field laboratory was sent to Baghdad International airport in support of coalition forces. Staffed by six specialists from DSTL Porton Down and two from AWE (Aldermaston) the lab has the capability to conduct analysis of suspected CBRN materials."

Not much effort and means seem to have been spent towards NBC protection and detection by DSTL on the field except for TRaME. They say : "In the case of TRaME - Tactical Radiation Monitoring Equipment – there was an urgent need to provide troops operating in theatre with radiation protection instruments. The TRaME capability comprises diverse monitoring, sensor and recording hardware, together with hardware and software tools to gives British land forces the ability to assess the risk of conducting missions in a radioactive environment. The capability alerts troops to the presence of a radioactive hazard, provides a survey facility to define the extent and severity and analysis tools to identify the source. "

There is no mention of a similarly urgent project in the field of chemical or biological protection and monitoring besides the insignificant mobile laboratory with a crew of 8 sent in after the end of the main hostilities.

This demonstrate that the focus and means were fully put on radioactive hazard rather than chemical or biological threat, in total antagonism with No 10's dossier assessing the certainty of the presence of massive quantities of those deadly chemical and biological agents but only of the hypothetical presence of radioactive material.

The answer of that puzzle is simple. It is only Depleted Uranium hazards they were concerned with. A survey of "Sandy Times", the official Ministry of Defence magazine for the British troops in the gulf, confirms it. The only mention and piece of advice to the soldiers regarding NBC hazard to be found in it is about Depleted Uranium. They say : "Britain’s Armed Forces continue to use Depleted Uranium (DU) ammunition... The types of DU ammunition used by British forces are 120mm anti tank rounds fired by the Army’s Challenger tanks and 20mm rounds used by the Royal Navy’s Phalanx missile defence system... When a DU weapon strikes a solid object, it goes straight through it and then erupts as cloud of burning vapour. The vapour settles as dust, this dust is radioactive and poisonous if inhaled or ingested... If you are to enter a contaminated area you should wear your issued NBC gloves and the special issue face mask." Not a single line of advice is to be found about how to best survive in a medium sized cloud of Sarin or Tabun gas unexpectedly delivered from a mortar round with their insufficiently efficient NBC mask and gloves and without decontamination units at hand.

The man that would have been called to unequivocally testify if those points had been put to Parliament or printed in newspapers was Paul Norman, the head of chemical and biological defence at DSTL. Unfortunately, he has just unexpectedly died...

Am I indirectly responsible for the death of Paul Norman, chief scientist on WMD protection at DSTL ?

Was he about to speak ?

Will the British Parliament answer my questions ?

Eidenschenck Dominique
Southampton, UK, 12 July 2004



This text and related personal documents available at :
homepage.ntlworld.com...

DSTL Porton Down Website :
www.dstl.gov.uk...

Ministry of Defence Website :
www.mod.uk...

Iraq's Weapons of mass Destruction - The Assessment Of The British Government :
www.mod.uk...

Iraq : Military Campain Objectives :
www.operations.mod.uk...

DSTL and Telic :
www.dstl.gov.uk...

DSTL and Telic - TRaME :
www.dstl.gov.uk...

Sandy Times No 26 :
www.operations.mod.uk...


[edit on 13-7-2004 by eidenk]



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 08:48 AM
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eidenk wrote


There is no mention of a similarly urgent project in the field of chemical or biological protection and monitoring besides the insignificant mobile laboratory with a crew of 8 sent in after the end of the main hostilities.


Sorry to burst your bubble eidenk, but the main detection of Chemical and Biological agents during the recent invasion of Iraq was done by the UK Joint NBC Regiment, not Dstl Porton Down.

During the first Gulf War the UK Chiefs of Staff were horrified to learn that, after 40 years of experiments that were designed to give the UK a Biological Warfare detection capability, the UK had no functioning BW detection system. Scientists from the CBDE Porton Down (as Dstl was then named) managed to quickly cobble together an ad hoc system for the Gulf War.

Afterwards the COS reqested a new CBW detection system. By 1998-99 CBD Porton Down had developed the Prototype Biological Detection System (PBDS) which went into service with the Joint NBC Regiment.

This system was used in Cumbria during the UK Foot and Mouth epidemic in order to investigate claims that F&M virus was being spread by the mass burning of animal carcasses. The MOD have always denied that this occurred but unfortunately for them the ITN managed to make a short film of the PBDS in action in Cumbria. A Sergeant from the Joint NBC regiment explains on film how the equipment functions.

By 2003 the fully developed Integrated Biological Detection System (IBDS), developed by Porton Down, entered Army service in December 2002 and was deployed for Operation Telic.

An early IBDS is seen here



Note the distinctive inverted cone on the roof. This is the cyclone air sampler. It operates in a similar fashion to a Dyson vacuum cleaner.

Many of these units were deployed during Operation Telic and can be seen in early footage of the war. Most footage that was taken at the UK Army Headquarters showed reporters standing in front of a vehicle covered in camoflage netting. This was the IBDS; the inverted cone that poked through the netting gave the game away.


I can't find the link but I do know that Professor Spratt and the Royal Society have been very vocal on their concerns regarding the use of DU munitions. It's worth looking for their research on Google.


zero lift


[edit on 13-7-2004 by zero lift]



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 09:01 AM
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A fascinating, albeit frightening thread.
This is not an isolated case of a MoD WMD expert dying suddenly.

Dr. David Kelly apparently committed suicide:



The ministry said Dr Kelly had at no point been threatened with suspension or dismissal for speaking to Mr Gilligan.

It was made clear to him that he had broken civil service rules by having unauthorised contact with a journalist, but "that was the end of it", said a spokesman.

news.bbc.co.uk...


That journalist was Andrew Gilligan.
Dr Kelly was the BBCs source for the story claiming downing street had 'sexed up' the dossier about Iraqi WMD.

Which in light of recent evidence is correct they did 'sex up' the dossier (real world translation: fabricated).

Also worth noting is the inquiry into the suspicious circumstances surrounding the death of Dr Kelly is not going to be re-opened.



The Oxfordshire coroner has decided not to reconvene the inquest into weapons expert Dr David Kelly's death.

In a 15-minute hearing he said the Kelly family accepted Lord Hutton's verdict Dr Kelly committed suicide.

news.bbc.co.uk...


The evidence grows colder...

Apologies for bringing this into the thread, I know most people know this, it's just a recap of a related incident.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by shanti23]



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 10:48 AM
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shanti23, no apologies needed. The death of Dr Kelly must always be remembered, especially now.

As for Andrew Gilligans involvement in the Dr Kelly affair, he is being proved right in his assertions that the UK Government "sexed up" information pertaining to Iraqs possesion of WMD.

Funnily enough he was instrumental in my campaign for further information regarding Porton Downs past use of the UK as a giant BW laboratory. The article that started Dorset residents asking embarassing (for the MOD) questions about past Porton germ warfare experiments can be read here.



www.gulflink.org...

Public were 'guinea pigs' in germ warfare tests

By Andrew Gilligan and Rob Evans
2 February 1997


AN unsuspecting public was involved in germ warfare experiments during the early Sixties according to a "top secret" 1963 report by the Ministry of Defence's Chief Scientist.

Biological warfare had worried Britain's defence chiefs since before 1939, but it was not until 15 years after the end of the Second World War that ministers made research a priority. Sir Walter Cawood's paper, circulated to only four people, detailed how that research was being done.

"For many years harmless micro-organisms have been used on the Porton Down ranges to simulate biological warfare (BW) agents in field trials," he wrote. "However, for trials to give an early warning of BW attack, it is necessary to release living simulants over much greater distances. The trials are being conducted outside War Department ranges and to that extent the public are, and have been, exposed to those agents." The paper said that the simulants were "harmless".

According to documents from the Public Records Office, there were two main kinds of outside trial. In the first, the simulants were placed in boxes which were then driven to the testing locations. Sometimes the boxes would be opened and their contents exposed fully to the air. At other times air would circulate through special vents.

The "box" trials happened from 1963 in at least a dozen locations, including the West End of London, central Southampton, Portland Bill, Maiden Castle, near Dorchester, Osmington Mills, near Weymouth, and around Porton Down itself.

The second type of trial involved the direct spraying of simulants into the air, from vehicles, ships or even aircraft. This took place around Porton too, but most notably in an operation centred on Lyme Bay, Dorset.

Using the experimental test vessel Icewhale, Porton scientists organised a "massive cross-wind line release", spraying E coli 162 and bacillus globigii towards the shore at a rate of four litres per minute. Officially, Icewhale was not supposed to spray the coast from nearer than five miles, but maps of the operation show it came considerably closer.



In the same Sunday Telegraph newspaper he revealed that BW tests had also been conducted in London.


www.gulflink.org...

Revealed: MoD's germ warfare tests on London
By Andrew Gilligan, Defence Correspondent
2 February 1997


MINISTRY of Defence scientists carried out top-secret germ warfare tests in the heart of London and a dozen other places in southern England, The Telegraph has learnt. The tests continued until at least 1977.

"Simulants" of biological warfare agents - among them a strain of E coli - were exposed in public places including Waterloo Bridge and the Thames embankments, according to documents from the Public Records Office. "Massive quantities" of biological warfare simulant were launched at the Dorset coast from ships and aircraft.

The tests were conducted amid obsessive secrecy, with one high official issuing a warning that "knowledge of them by unauthorised persons could be politically embarrassing". The documents obtained by The Telegraph show that biological warfare experiments extended far beyond those few already publicly known, such as a series conducted on the London Underground.

Michael Portillo, the Defence Secretary - who provided details of the tests in a letter to a Labour MP - insisted that the simulants used in them were "judged to present no risk to public health". But leading microbiologists say that some could cause pneumonia, septacaemia or opthalmitis in "vulnerable" individuals such as young children, old people or those already ill.

With the imminent release of the "Butler Report" I feel it's likely that Andrew Giiligan is going to have a much better week than Tony Blair.



zero lift



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 01:58 PM
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Sorry to burst your bubble eidenk, but the main detection of Chemical and Biological agents during the recent invasion of Iraq was done by the UK Joint NBC Regiment, not Dstl Porton Down.


Among the 28,000 land troops and 1978 combat systems and support vehicles deployed in combat phase by the British Army, there are only 12 Fuchs NBC vehicles whose function is only reconnaissance operations in heavily contaminated areas. They are manned by The 1st Royal Tank Regiment.

The 1st Royal Tank Regiment is otherwise manning some or all of the 116 deployed Challenger 2 battletanks firing Depleted Uranium rounds.

The 12 Fuchs NBC vehicles probably had the sole function of going ahead after destruction of targets by DU rounds and assess where or when it is safe to go through for the less well protected units that had to follow.

I still don't manage to find any significant mention of decontamination systems, personel and vehicles being deployed by the British forces.

Official MoD statistics on deployment in Iraq :
www.mod.uk...
www.mod.uk...

Fuchs NBC Vehicle :
www.rheinmetall-detec.de...


[edit on 15-7-2004 by eidenk]



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 06:34 PM
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eidenk wrote


I still don't manage to find any significant mention of decontamination systems, personel and vehicles being deployed by the British forces.


Unfortunately the UK Ministry of Defence have always been shy of publicising their NBC capabilities. Official MOD sponsored websites have little if any information regarding the Joint NBC Regiment and it's equipment.

There are a few sites that contain some relevant info.

www.flawlessmedia.co.uk...

The Joint Nuclear Biological and Chemical Regiment

Who we are and why we were formed

The Joint Nuclear Biological and Chemical Regiment (Jt NBC Regt) provides highly specialised and essential expertise in the increasingly important field of Weapons of Mass Destruction. The regiment primarily consists of the 1st Royal Tank Regiment and 27 Squadron RAF Regiment working in partnership; although staff from other army units provide support where necessary.

The Jt NBC Regt was formed back in 1998, when the Strategic Defence Review highlighted the need for a specialist force to meet ever-growing nuclear, biological and chemical threats. Based at RAF Honington in Suffolk, the Regiment’s key role is the operational support of deployed British Forces from all 3 Services. We may also be called upon to provide military assistance to civil authorities during peace time; dealing with accidents or incidents involving radiological or biological elements, or chemical spills. We provided, for example, much needed support and advice during the Foot and Mouth outbreak in 2001.

The field of reconnaissance, detection and surveying of Weapons of Mass Destruction is technically and physically challenging, and in a very short time the Jt NBC Regt has become recognised as world leaders in this area.

Equipped with Fuchs Reconnaissance Vehicles and other high mobility transportation mounted with specialist NBC detection equipment, the Jt NBC Regt can move at very short notice to any potential trouble spot. Some of our soldiers have served in Kuwait over the past few years providing Biological detection in support of British Forces on OP RESINATE(South) and we sent a small number of specialists to Afghanistan, where we operate in a ‘light role’, providing support to the International Stabilisation Force. We were recently amongst the very first troops to be deployed on operations on OP TELIC in Northern Kuwait - to provide 24hr sampling and monitoring for chemical and biological agents during the build up of British and US forces.

Ours is a highly specialised and unique Regiment, and as such represents a significant intellectual challenge to everyone concerned. The first of its kind in the British Forces, the Regiment is at the forefront of emerging technology and provides a firm basis on which to develop nuclear, biological and chemical defence capabilities.

Although no weapons of mass destruction have been found as yet the Regiment had a very important role in Iraq. Even now there is a team of Jt NBC Regt soldiers. They are based out of the International Airport at Basrah. They are mainly involved with Toxic Industrial Hazards and potential problems arising from Toxic Industrial Chemicals (TIH and TIC). The Regiment proved itself to be a flexible entity when it re-rolled into the infantry Internal Security role. The Jt NBC Regt filled the duties of an infantry Battalion in Southern Iraq.

Since our return from the Gulf, The Regiment is still supporting further duties on Op TELIC. The Regiment is currently introducing new equipments and is also concentrating on updating our existing capabilities.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information on the Integrated Biological Detection System is sparse, a few pictures are on the web, but are mainly development models. Eventually the MOD expects to take delivery of 50 IBDS.



The next site details development of the IBDS

www.dr.mod.uk...

At the moment the Dstl Porton Down is in the development and field trials stage of producing the Maritime Biological Detection System. This will replace the Interim Biological Detection System.

If you find other UK MOD NBC information regarding the new equipment , feel free to post it here.

zero lift



posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 11:31 AM
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posted on Jul, 14 2004 @ 12:01 PM
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eidenk wrote


Zero Lift wrote blah-blah-blah


Care to expand on that eidenk? It's unlike you to write such a short post.


zero lift



posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 03:21 AM
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This thread is about the recent death in an aircrash accident of Paul Norman, the chief scientist for WMD protection at Dstl Porton Down.

Paul Norman was the No1 UK expert on passive WMD protection working at the heart of MoD in close relationship with the defence industry. He had spent 18 years at Dstl devising NBC protection equipment and countermeasures for the British military and was regularly giving lectures around the world. After his death, his colleagues have described him as one of the world's leading expert in this field.

Neurotoxic agents kill in seconds or minutes by inhalation, ingestion or skin contact with the tiniest amount of it. A glassfull of Agent VX for example and one explosive or another to create a small cloud of dropplets was all that was necessary to inflict easy casualties of the hundreds or thousands magnitude at any time to the Coalition troops and foreign citizens anywhere in Iraq, or even to create havoc among the Coalition Provisional Authority personel inside Bagdhad's bunker, the isolated and heavily fortified Green Zone.

The capability of the British land forces (as well as diplomats and civilian personel) during and after the invasion of Iraq in terms of passive protection and decontamination against chemical nerve agents such as Tabun, Sarin or VX, is near to non-existant. What the troops had what just enough to protect them against the hazards of Depleted Uranium dust that settles quite quickly due to its extremely high density and on which the soldiers didn't dwell anyway or from an attack (limited in time) by non poisonous vesicant agents such as phosgene, chlorine, hydrochloric acid or other near to household item base chemical.

This is in total antagonism with the perceived threat posed to the British Army by Saddam as outlined in No10 September 2002 dossier which puts those nerve agents as well as their various possible and ready to use means of delivery at the forefront of its claims.

It means the British Government lied. Otherwise Dstl would have developed important specific projects in the field of passive nerve agents protection and decontamination. Theoretically Dstl, one of the MoD's in-house contractors rely in its direction and projects upon information received by the army from the intelligence through the political. Blair says Saddam has scores of sarin, tabun, VX, anthrax, botulic toxin, aflatoxin and delivery means ranging from mortars to missiles. He orders the British Armies to remove him by force but warns them that he will probably not hesitate to massively use them to defend himself. He adds that Saddam has not hesitated to use them against his one people in the past. The Army must then be ready to face any or both of those two scenarios, brief classic battlefield confrontation with biological-chemical weapons and long-term guerilla warfare confrontations (extending to all civilian personal present in Iraq) with biological-chemical weapons. At this stage most of the Dstl effort in the NBC field seems to be put into enhancing the 12 Fuchs NBC sniffers with the urgently needed TRaME radiation detection capability to better monitor the Depleted Uranium contaminated zones created by the Challenger 2 battletanks. This proves that all those WMDs claims were just bull#s.

Paul Norman, due to his position and function, knew all this more than anyone else. He was the only person who could entirely destroy even by mistake the conclusions reached by both the Hutton and Butler enquiries anytime, anywhen and anywhere in the world due to his position of an international public lecturer of his standard and pedigree in that specific and higly technical field of WMD passive protection and decontamination with audiences probably expecting him to elaborate on his role at the heart of Operation Telic and on the useful technical knowledge gained there despite the non use of bio-chemical weapons against the Coalition forces.

I claim that there is more than reason enough here to murder him in order to silence him considering the threat he did represent for Tony Blair & Co. It must be remembered that if Tony Blair is accused of lying, uncontestable demonstration of it has never been done. If Tony Blair is proven to be a liar it means he technically becomes a traitor on the one hand and a premeditated mass-murderer on the other with all it might mean in terms of legal consequences for him and the several others that have acted in full knowledge of what they were doing.

This thread is about the recent death in an aircrash accident of Paul Norman, the chief scientist for WMD protection at Dstl Porton Down and I thought you were going off subject too much somehow.

I have posted in this thread because I have I think a quite convincing explanation for the possible reason of his death. If you can disprove me, give an other possible explanation for his death or bring additional details about his professional career, you are welcome to post it here.

If you want to discuss the future NBC detection capability of the British Army in general or create a collection of photographs of old NBC detection vehicles, please create another thread elsewhere.

That's it.



posted on Jul, 15 2004 @ 08:40 AM
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OK eidenk, you wrote


If you want to discuss the future NBC detection capability of the British Army in general or create a collection of photographs of old NBC detection vehicles, please create another thread elsewhere.


I posted the information on the development and deployment of the PBDS and IBDS (not old detection vehicles, but brand new equipment) because you claimed that the UK government did not protect their troops against NBC agents during Operation TELIC. I was showing that the deployment of the IBDS did offer a very good measure of BW detection across a very wide area. Do your homework on the specs of the IBDS and you will understand.

I posted the information on the Joint NBC Regiment because you seemed ignorant of their existence. You focused on the Dstl team sent out to assist in Operation TELIC and left the impression that the UK NBC detection and decontamination capabilities were a few Fuchs vehicles and a laboratory.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the UK Armed Forces suffered equipment deficiencies in all areas, but the provision of the IBDS at least gave them an adequate warning of the of any BW agents in the environment.




The capability of the British land forces (as well as diplomats and civilian personel) during and after the invasion of Iraq in terms of passive protection and decontamination against chemical nerve agents such as Tabun, Sarin or VX, is near to non-existant.


Apart from the UK Army issue NBC suits, repirators, atropine sulphate auto-injectors, and decontamination units; what other protection do you demand?



You also said


Paul Norman, due to his position and function, knew all this more than anyone else. He was the only person who could entirely destroy even by mistake the conclusions reached by both the Hutton and Butler enquiries anytime, anywhen and anywhere in the world due to his position of an international public lecturer of his standard and pedigree in that specific and higly technical field of WMD passive protection and decontamination with audiences probably expecting him to elaborate on his role at the heart of Operation Telic and on the useful technical knowledge gained there despite the non use of bio-chemical weapons against the Coalition forces.


To say this is a massive assumption. What evidence do you have that suggests that he was the only person who could entirely destroy the conclusions reached by both the Hutton and Butler enquiries anytime?
He wasn't the only WMD expert in the UK. There are many others, Professor Hay, Graham Pearson, Tom Inch, etc.

Which conclusions, in either report, would he have destroyed? What evidence have you got that he disagreed with either report?

As for your conceit;


Am I indirectly responsible for the death of Paul Norman, chief scientist on WMD protection at DSTL ?


Let me get this straight,.......you say you wrote some letters to various newspapers(which they declined to print),.... then handed out copies of these letters to people in the street, ......and then a chief scientist at Dstl Porton died in an aircraft crash...........indirectly caused by you?






zero lift



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 01:37 PM
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I thank you for some of the links and information I indeed ignored. Some have supplied me with new data validating further my argument and some are irrelevant for the point I try to make.

You are undoubtely more knowledgeable than I am on the specs of the IDBS which I do not intend to study in the present time nor in the foreseeable future.

You must not confuse NBC detection with NBC protection and decontamination.

You must not put all military WMD experts in the same bag. Some are paid to design the most efficiently lethal weapons in order to kill as many as possible. Some others, such as Paul Norman, are paid to design the most efficient passive protection means possible in order to save a maximum of lives on the battlefield. Paul Norman was the No1 UK expert in the latter, one of the leading world expert according to his colleagues at Dstl.

If I've focused on Dstl, it is because Paul Norman was working there.

Let's now do a little wargame in which you have what the British troops had and I have what Tony Blair said Saddam had.

We are in the desert and you have 1000 British ground troops all with their regular NBC protection package at reach of hand. I've got 5 groups of 4 dedicated professional soldiers with 1 mortars and ten agent VX shells each. Without warning I fire all the shells at you as fast as possible. How many casualties do you have ? What do you do next ?

Oh, I forgot to tell you. I have 20 little groups like this and they have all attacked your forces with similar weapons in different places almost simultaneously. How many casualties do you have now ? What happens next ?

Let's do another little wargame.

I've let you in without offering much resistance. After two weeks when you have settled, I launch 100 hundred simultaneous attacks of that type against your forces and selected civilian groups such as diplomats and retain, as far as your knowledge is concerned, the capability to carry on in the coming days. How many casualties do you have ? What happens next ?

At this stage or shortly after does the name and photograph of Paul Norman appear on the UK newspapers or is he dead as well ?

As for my letter, It's just probably my paranoia that leaks. Nevertheless, Rt. Hon. John Denham the Southampton Labour MP answered me on the NBC issue in his official capacity on behalf of the British Parliament, he assured me that to the best of his knowledge sufficient provisions had been taken to efficiently protect British troops from direct WMD attack. Which leads us back, after visiting the Parliament corridors with my stuff to my neighbour Paul Norman, the No1 UK scientist on WMD protection at the MoD. Paul Norman was a Salisbury resident. The second town from Southampton, after Winchester. Many people from Salisbury work in Southampton and vice-versa. Same for Saturday evening type of shopping and familly links. I distributed on a Saturday afternoon 300 of my letters in the main shopping street of Southampton to people from all social categories, including some local members of Conservative Party with military type of haircuts. All of this gives me statistically much more chance to be the indirect cause of Paul Norman's death than winning the jackpot at the lottery. And infinitely more than if I had done nothing of the above.



posted on Jul, 16 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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eidenk, I understand your concerns about the lack of NBC protection for diplomats and civilian personnel in Iraq, but as I said before;

"Apart from the UK Army issue NBC suits, repirators, atropine sulphate auto-injectors, and decontamination units; what other protection do you demand?"

The dangers faced by those serving in Iraq have passed from a wartime battlefield scenario to an urban guerilla setting. At the minute there is not a lot that can be done except for the precautions that are already in place.

It would be interesting to investigate whether Dr Paul Newman had advised the Government on dealing with the sort of situation they now face in Iraq. Why not ask your MP to ask a written Parliamentary Question about this?

zero lift



posted on Oct, 25 2004 @ 01:47 PM
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Sir
As an ex-serviceman duped into taking part in chemical and biological experiments at Porton Down in 1959-60 and having reported the matter to the Wiltshire Police in 1999 I am deeply disturbed at the number of deaths relating to Porton Down that have occurred since first submitting my report to the police. The police investigation code named "Operation Antler" which lasted almost 4 years was not only the biggest investigation of its kind conducted by the Wiltshire Police but as it turned out, the most corrupt. (more about that later)
The sudden death of a Foreign Office Minister which occurred in May 1999 shortly after my wife had retreived still secret 'Court of Enquiry'documents into the death of a R.A.F. serviceman killed with the nerve agent Sarin GB in 1953. filled me with concern. Mr Fatchett a strong critic of Porton Down both as opposition Defence Minister and when New Labour came to power in 1997 appointed to the Foreign Office came to the attention of the security services. In Jan 1999 the documents were discovered by my wife hidden in my file in the offices of my then M.P. Chris Mullin, (Sunderland South) and were forwarded to him by the then Defence Minister Doug Henderson. In a letter dated Dec 1998 Mr Henderson indicated the he had forwarded "documentation" to Mr Mullin in response to my enquiries on the Maddison death, Mr Mullin repeatedly ignored my many requests to have possession of such, not surprising, for oddly enough the inquiry report stated that Maddison " had" died of nerve gas poisoning which contradicted Mr Henderson's letter that stated he "had not" died of nerve gas poisoning and that at the inquest held in camera shortly after his death it was reported as death by mis-adventure. AS THE COURT OF INQUIRY REPORT STATED OTHERWISE. I was compelled me to report the matter to the police. Operation Antler was born.
It was only weeks after the documents were discovered (May 1999) that the comparatively young Mr Fatchett died of an apparent heart attack, and shortly afterward Mr Henderson was dismissed as Defence Minister and sent to the back benches where he remains to this day. The timing and circumstances surrounding Mr Fatchetts death promped me at the time to bring it to the attention of the Wiltshire Police, who dimissed it out of hand. I should state that at the time the MoD police had been drafted into the Antler investigation and were clearly dictating how Antler was to be conducted. i.e. (1) Turning away important witnesses. Using an annonymous "expert' witness to refute evidence I had forwarded to them concerning a biological agent Pyrexal. (2) A written statement I asked for and made out by the police (Det Con Porter) and signed by myself authorising them to enter and search my file in Mr Mullin's office cannot be accounted for. (3) Refusing to access a tape recorded meeting I had with senior Porton Down scientists . (The recording which made the Wiltshire Police out to be lying was offered to them by Mr Rick Hall a senior staff member at Porton Down who was present at the meeting). (4) Not providing all of their findings to the CPS, and giving false information to the Senior Crown Prosecutor Kate Leonard. I have now strong evidence of a conspiracy between the CPS and senior members of the Antler team the sole objective being to prevent prosecution of any Porton Scientists. (5)Another death that occurred is that of Dr David Kelly who as Senior Microbiologist at Porton Down should have been of major interest to police , but Like Chris Mullin M.P.before him HE WAS NEVER INTERVIEWED. (6) The setting up by police and the MoD (both synonymous) of a bogus group calling itself the Porton Down Veterans Support Group with Mr Ken Earl chosen as its founder. You will find this group widely publicised on the MoD and Wiltshire Police web sites. The main purpose of the PDVSG was to mislead Porton veterans. To date this group have collected many thousands of pounds from veterans but after 4 years in existence they have yet to provide any statement of accounting to its membership, this is not surprising considering it was the police who invented the PDVSG.
(7) In a letter hand delivered to me in my home in Canada in 2001 by Det Supt Luckett (lead investigator), it states that I would be told "in due course" of a "compound" that was added to CS gas during an experiment I took part in in 1960. Despite numerous requests for the information promised he has refused comment. (I have since discovered that it was a lippopolysachharide (LPS) that was the additive, this is derived from the Salmonella bacterium. Porton Technical Paper No 841 reports that it made many airmen ill with fever, headache, sickness, and temps raised to 104 degrees. I have discovered that if given in sufficient quantities it will also cause intravascular coagulation (blood thickening) resulting stroke/heart attack. It should be noted that the Russian defector Pasnichek interrogated and debriefed by Dr Kelly at Porton Down died of stroke. Fatchett of a heart attack. Now we have the death in an aircrash of Dr Paul Martin another Porton Down Senior Microbiologist who like Kelly was involved in the WMD programme. Many people will note that when the MoD become involved in a police investigation nothing if anything gets resolved, one has only to look at the Deepcut deaths invoving young servicemen. The Kelly death which was unconvicingly brought in as suicide. The isle of Mull helicopter crash blamed on pilot error. Then there is the Antler investigation a whitewash resulting in a coverup of criminality that occurred at Porton Down.
Having made my own inquiries into criminality that occurred at Porton since 1996 I was not left untouched by the British security services MI5, with Special Branch giving assistance. In Oct 2000 After arriving at Glasgow Airport from Calgary Canada I was followed from the airport bus stand to Glsgow central railway station (my normal route to Sunderland), then due to the Hatfield rail crash I was directed to Queens Street where I was to get a train to Edinburgh where I would then go on to Newcastle. It was on the Edinburgh train that a well spoken individual entered the 1st class compartment and sat next to me. It was the only seat left in the compartment. I was in the aisle seat, he sat at the window seat to the right of me. I noticed that he had no baggage but was carrying something wrapped in a green plastic bag. It was clear by his conversation that he wanted to know (in small talk terms) where I had travelled from. What struck me was that he was extremely polite (overly so) and he spoke with a very polished southern England accent. During the course of the journey he kept asking if I knew what the next station was, this I found very strange as each destination was posted on the ticker display on the ceiling of the rail car. He suddenly said "I think I will get off here" It was at Carstairs where he made his quick exit from the 1st class to the adjacent economy part of the train where he had met up with his accomplice who could not gain access to the carriage where I was at. My blood ran cold when they both began grinning at me through the partition and later through the window of the carriage when they had left the train. I had no doubt that he had contaminated me with a substance of some kind. But what? I was to find out some time later when a large lump appeared on the underside of me forearm, I could not walk for the pain. Blood tests and x-rays showed that I had come down with Rheumatoid Arthritis. At the time of this happening I reported the matter to the Wiltshire Police. In 2003 the CPS sent me a 50 report outling why no charges were being laid against Porton Down scientists. The report went on to explain my complaint and my medical condition. IT MADE NO MENTION OF RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS even though a report of such was forwarded to Wiltshire Police from my doctor in Canada. Clearly the police had avoided for their own reasons, that R.A. should not be mentioned in the report. I later hand delivered a full written statement of the incident to Strathclyde Police who supposedly are investigating the incident.
Foot note. Mr Chris Mullin MP is now a Foreign Office Minister. Since taking up this post he has tried repeatedly to have me banned from my adopted country Canada, and the USA. He attempted this via the High Commisioners of both countries I am glad to say that he failed on both attempts.

Gordon Bell
Alberta
Canada.


dh

posted on Oct, 25 2004 @ 04:25 PM
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Porton Down's commercial arm is of course Bioport, supplier of the ill-tested anthrax vaccine Cipro
The anthrax attacks post-911 were with the particular Ames strain of weaponised anthrax that originates or was verified at Porton Down before being shipped back to the Merck company in New Jersey near to where the anthrax mailings were made
The likelihood is that Porton and all the connected drug and military research units and their university outreach facilities are heavily implicated in the emerging virus and prion diseases
When you've got iatrogenocide at hand, the murder of Dr Kelly, numerous other microbiologists and biotechnologists dying violent deaths, and now this guy, well you can hardly be surprised that those with the insider knowledge are being offed
Any of them showing the slightest humanity will become loose cannons in the regard of TPTB and will need to be dealt with



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