Slayer.........Neno.............Bozzchem.......
+100 more

All well stated, thank you.

Originally posted by AdAbsurdum
It is a weak argument. We can discuss it if you would like, feel free to start a new thread.

I have no problem discussing this here and now. I have started many threads on various topics.

And here is how I know you are not a First Nations person. You used the past tense "were". This is still ongoing.

I'm sorry but no one in my tribe or original reservation has been raped, killed or enslaved by any imperialist in over a hundred years. I can't speak for our Canadian "First Nation" cousins to the north though.

You can see here the evidence of capitalist machinery that is entrenched in American culture. He appropriates another ethnic groups suffering instead of standing in solidarity with their struggle in order to dismiss it. This is also called revisionism and is an aspect of liberalism. These left over vestiges of imperialism are a reason for American's fearing Socialism.

TO THE OP: Here we have a classic case of someone with a holier than thou opinion of themselves. Deciding how someone else thinks or views the world based on a few paragraphs written in a thread on a conspiracy site. Can we say assumptive?

Revisionist?
Appropriation?


I'm not the one running around ignoring the very real history of the world in favor of a philosophic academic perception of socialism and or Communism. We've seen it in action and the result was hundreds of millions killed in the name of it.

That's my point. Capitalism = bad, using death toll counts.

YET, You'll ignore the very real numbers of hundreds of millions killed in the name of socialism/communism and only focus on what has been done in the name of imperialism. We as Americans know all too well about imperialism. Remember we as a country fought off the crown in order to gain our independence from it. Remind me and the readers if the queens face is still plastered on some of your money....Revise that.

TO THE OP: This illustrates that the teaching of individualism helps to serve the revisionist agenda of liberalism. Because individualist thought is pressed so hard in this culture American's are unable to see how they are a collective and share collective responsibility for the shortcomings of their domestic and foreign domestic policies.

TO THE OP: Here we have a classic case of generalization. Again with the revisionist crap. You're the one who is in denial about the real history of what uncontrolled socialism has done. Say what you mean instead of reediting your reply with after thoughts. And who the hell is a liberal here. Shortcomings of domestic and foreign policies? By whose standards? Yours?

Hell, you cant even admit that hundreds of millions were murdered in the name of communism.

Why should I or anyone else for that matter trust your opinions?

So you agree that capitalism doesn't work?

Batista was a crook. Is he or Cuba the best example you can come up with? I'm sorry, but out of 195 countries Cuba's history in the long run will amount to a hill of beans and will have a negligible impact on global affairs.

TO THE OP: Here you can see that while it seems completely rational to juxtapose a communist with Stalinism it is utterly baffling to make the same comparison with capitalism and it's leaders. Instead of arriving at the logical conclusion, totalitarian dictatorships are terrible, the conclusion is drawn that all communism means mass murder and death.

TO THE OP: Showing real world examples of what has happened in the name of Socialism and or Communism is nothing more than showing the truth. However, having said that on paper socialism works grand but in the real REAL world, GREED, CORRUPTION and Human ego have shown it will not work. Academically it's all great but again in the real world people die and by the millions.

Sure, right after you answer my question.

Again, is Batista your example?
He was a crook. So? and? Your point?

TO THE OP: This reply illustrates the reactionary thinking that is also to blame for the lack of discourse in this nation. Please notice how the replier is unable to answer my question and instead launches into a diatribe about more deaths that all of communism is supposedly solely responsible for. Yet, when making the same comparison about capitalism the nations stand alone.

TO THE OP: Obviously his reply is lacking in any and all facts pertaining to the discussion instead comes off with his obvious higher opinion of himself and stance. I have provided sources and links that show the numbers which have demonstrated the cost communism has had on humankind and it's history. But he continues to bounce back and forth between Capitalism and Imperialism confusing the distinction between the two all based on opinions and innuendo.

TO THE OP: Can we potentially ban slogans and catchphrases like "Bourgeoise". "reactionary", "counter-revolutionary" and "proletariat" from this discussion?

No?

That's ok. Those phrase let us know who and what is talking, and more importantly WHERE THEY GET THEIR TALKING POINTS FROM.

Good lord, I feel like I'm back in the 60's again. Anybody got any beads, bells, incense, or Flower Power?

When is the next Committee meeting?

Originally posted by SLAYER69

So you agree that capitalism doesn't work?

Batista was a crook. Is he or Cuba the only example you can come up with? I'm sorry but out of the 195 countries Cuba's history in the long run will amount to a hill of beans and will have a negligible impact on global affairs.

Sure, right after you answer my question.

Again is Batista your example?
He was a crook. So? and? Your point?

Somoza was a crook, too, but I can tell you right off that the Nicaraguan campesinos and the Miskitos, Rama, etc. were a damn sight better off under him than the Sandinistas. See, crook though he was, he let the campesinos and the indians alone to do their thing for the most part. They weren't what he was getting rich from, so he let 'em be.

That all changed under the Sandinistas.

I heard the promises made about a grand and glorious worker's paradise, the dictatorship of the proletariat, all that BS. Then I saw what was delivered in place of all those flowery promises.

Collectivizing the farms, displacing the campesinos.

"Relocating" the Miskitos and Ramas, and utterly destroying their villages. I mean UTTERLY destroying them. Razing them right to the ground, so that the indians had nothing to go back to.

Hell, it got to the point where, in that "worker's paradise", families were rationed one roll of toilet paper per week. ONE ROLL.

Naw, these folks can keep their God-damned "collective".

They can make me all the pretty promises they like, but do it from over there, in their own corner.

They move towards mine, there's gonna be huge trouble, and yeah, once they start it, they'll have to kill me and folks like me to stop it.

This is OUR turf.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I have no problem discussing this here and now. I have started many threads on various topics.

I just thought it would be off topic.

I'm sorry but no one in my tribe or original reservation has been raped, killed or enslaved by any imperialist in over a hundred years. I can't speak for our Canadian "First Nation" cousins to the north though.

Siksika. I apologize for jumping all over you but you know as well as I do that the situation of your people isn't standard across the board even in America.

TO THE OP: Here we have a classic case of someone with a holier than thou opinion of themselves. Deciding how someone else thinks or views the world based on a few paragraphs written in a thread on a conspiracy site. Can we say assumptive?

I'm not making any assumptions, your post illustrates exactly why we can't have this discourse in America. I was answering the OP's question.

I'm not the one running around ignoring the very real history of the world in favor of a philosophic academic perception of socialism and or Communism. We've seen it in action and the result was hundreds of millions killed in the name of it.

Yet, oddly enough my people did just fine with a form of it before capitalism showed up.

YET, You'll ignore the very real numbers of hundreds of millions killed in the name of socialism/communism and only focus on what has been done in the name of imperialism. We as Americans know all too well about imperialism. Remember we as a country fought off the crown in order to gain our independence from it. Remind me and the readers if the queens face is still plastered on some of your money....Revise that.

I acknowledge those numbers. You are right; however, what I meant to say was colonialism, and I meant that in an economical sense not a cultural one. I said Imperialism and I misspoke and made a mistake.

TO THE OP: Here we have a classic case of generalization. Again with the revisionist crap. You're the one who is in denial about the real history of what uncontrolled socialism has done. Say what you mean instead of reediting your reply with after thoughts. And who the hell is a liberal here. Shortcomings of domestic and foreign policies? By whose standards? Yours?

I'm not in denial. People died under Stalin, Mao, etc. My point is that people died under the capitalist system as well and so it's a weak argument.

Not liberal as in Democrat but Economic Liberalism.

Not historical revisionism but revision of communist thought.

Why should I or anyone else for that matter trust your opinions?

What? Trust my opinions to be true opinions? I genuinely don't know why someone would ask this...

Batista was a crook. Is he or Cuba the best example you can come up with? I'm sorry, but out of 195 countries Cuba's history in the long run will amount to a hill of beans and will have a negligible impact on global affairs.

We are more or less in agreement here.

TO THE OP: Showing real world examples of what has happened in the name of Socialism and or Communism is nothing more than showing the truth. However, having said that on paper socialism works grand but in the real REAL world, GREED, CORRUPTION and Human ego have shown it will not work. Academically it's all great but again in the real world people die and by the millions.

They do. Just like they do under capitalist economies. Again, this same argument can be made about current capitalist countries and their failings.

Again, is Batista your example?
He was a crook. So? and? Your point?

This was referring to the collectivists in South America post Spanish-American war.

TO THE OP: Obviously his reply is lacking in any and all facts pertaining to the discussion instead comes off with his obvious higher opinion of himself and stance. I have provided sources and links that show the numbers which have demonstrated the cost communism has had on humankind and it's history. But he continues to bounce back and forth with between Capitalism and Imperialism confusing the distinction between the two all based on opinions and innuendo.

How I feel about myself is irrelevant. I illustrated why we can't have this conversation in America and you have helped to answer the OP's question. And yes, I confused Imperialism with Colonialism as I was meaning to refer to the economic practices of it and how the are still utilized today.

Now, I for one would like to have this discussion about capitalism and communism. See where we differ and attempt to find a compromise or perhaps to find some sort of reconciliation.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Can't speak for Slayer, but I ain't "First nations" either, I'm just a plain old NDN. As far as I know, all the "First Nations" are in Canada, and I'm not Canadian. Don't think Slayer is either. He' probably just a plain old NDN too. Mescalero, as I recall.

I don't feel comfortable using the terms NDN, inidian, etc. I couldn't think of an overarching term to refer to all the various tribal and their affiliations.

You might wanna check up on folks before you get to jumping them and telling them what they are in contravention to what they already know that they are.

As far as I am concerned blood line has little to do with tribal identity. I stand by my reasoning.

The State is all, isn't it?

Not at all. I believe all forms of state run government are inherently corrupt.

That whole post was nearly word for word what I've been hearing since I can recall hearing communist rhetoric and catch phrases, like "bourgeoise". The only thing you left out was "capitalist running dogs". Nothing new there, or "revolutionary".

Revolution comes through action not theory. Nice word play.

NO government can "give" you anything that they haven't first TAKEN away from you. Your own example shows that socialism, in this case in the form of social programs, is nothing more than robbery, brute force, and control of the masses.

We are in agreement about unemployment. I glossed over it quickly because I didn't want to make a long post longer than it had to be. The problem here is not the social program but the fact that there is a need for one.

From where I stand, looks to me like it was YOU who "appropriated another ethnic groups suffering" to attempt to advance your argument.

I can understand how it appears that way.

So... ARE you? Can you lay claim to the heritage to legitimize your quest for the perfect collective? If not, it's transparent of you to USE our heritage to promote YOUR foreign philosophy, and you use it badly.

I don't think I'm one of you... Unless you are also Siksika. So, yes I can lay claim to a communal heritage.

No difference AT ALL from the English, Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese. Oddly, I give the French a pass. I don't like 'em much, but at least they DID treat the natives right, for the most part.

I too give the French a pass. From what I've been told they at least bothered.

Someone like you once asked a Shawnee how he could fight for the country that had so "ill used his people". This happened not so long ago. The warrior looked at him like a bug under glass for a minute, then said "you're forgetting just WHOSE county this is!"

Yes, I would ask that question. His enlisting doesn't defend the Nation of the Shawnee in my opinion and I don't see his Nation having control of the American processes.

Because Americans don't care about those less off. The majority white middle class of America are happy for the rest of the world to starve while they drive around with 9 family cars and live in quasi-Mansions.

It's an absolute greed that's washed into their brains for most their life. Anyone who visits America will understand immediately that the people value materialism more than the health and happiness of their fellow man. It's a greedy place for greedy people. Of course this is never accepted, their greed is hidden under the veil of 'freedom'.

The American people are oblivious to the harm Capitalism does. They have no understanding that their great lifestyle is directly harming many people. That it comes at the expense of others freedoms and health. It doesn't even enter their head. Out of sight, out of mind.

The biggest stumbling block is that they equate Socialism with Totalitarian government. And Capitalism with freedom. Which is a fallacy.